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Article: A Hall Without Jack Morris Is No Hall at All

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#61 TheLeviathan

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Posted 10 January 2014 - 11:30 AM

Untrue. Read this article.

http://www.baseballp...?articleid=1815

There is no such thing as "pitching to the scoreboard". Morris simply wasn't very good at preventing runs. Full stop.


That is really some outstanding analysis done in that link.

I know there is a big push-back on the "stat-heads" for removing the romance of the game, but articles like this prove why it's such a valuable component to analyzing a career. There are so many assumptions driving the debate for Morris that stats can eliminate because they aren't biased.

I wish some would understand that the romance doesn't die just because the analysis gets better.

#62 Willihammer

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Posted 10 January 2014 - 11:38 AM

Really, if you want to use WAR as your guiedeline (or any other metric), any question of "does a guy belong in the Hall" can be reduced to a simple baseball-reference lookup.

Someone with a B-R subscription, do a pitching season finder (combined seasons or careeers) for the following:

Years 1957-2013
Min. 1000 IP.

Jack pitched (1977-1994). Any 17 year period, on average, will capture all or part of 22 HoF pitchers. Does WAR say Jack one of the 22 best to have pitched at some point in this timeframe? (I am too lazy/cheap to look for myself).

#63 old nurse

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Posted 10 January 2014 - 11:43 AM

Not to be terribly nit picky but Carlton was pretty much done by 1984. The Jack Morris era was 1979-1994. In that era by fwar, all that are above him are in the HOF. Gooden may have been a better pitcher but his career lasted just long enough to be qualified to be in the hall but not enough to accumulate fwar to match Morris . The list of position players with more fwar than Morriss and not in the HOF is a lot longer. Morris was a top 6 pitcher for his era. It has more to do with there were not that many elite pitchers in that same span.

#64 Brad Swanson

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Posted 10 January 2014 - 11:43 AM

Really, if you want to use WAR as your guiedeline (or any other metric), any question of "does a guy belong in the Hall" can be reduced to a simple baseball-reference lookup.

Someone with a B-R subscription, do a pitching season finder (combined seasons or careeers) for the following:

Years 1957-2013
Min. 1000 IP.

Jack pitched (1977-1994). Any 17 year period, on average, will capture all or part of 22 HoF pitchers. Does WAR say Jack one of the 22 best to have pitched at some point in this timeframe? (I am too lazy/cheap to look for myself).


http://bbref.com/pi/shareit/O8LXQ

Morris is 62nd, right below Bartolo Colon and right above Bob Welch.

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Kevin Slowey was Framed!


#65 Hosken Bombo Disco

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Posted 10 January 2014 - 11:55 AM

Quick Quiz...

Name:____________________

1. T or F: Ozzie Smith is in the Hall of Fame.

2. T or F: In all time batting average for shortstops, Ozzie Smith rates somewhere between Trevor Plouffe and Jason Bartlett.

3. T or F: In all time fielding percentage for shortstops, Ozzie Smith rates somewhere between David Eckstein and Stephen Drew.

How'd you do!?

#66 Thrylos

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Posted 10 January 2014 - 12:15 PM

Quick Quiz...

Name:____________________

1. T or F: Ozzie Smith is in the Hall of Fame.

2. T or F: In all time batting average for shortstops, Ozzie Smith rates somewhere between Trevor Plouffe and Jason Bartlett.

3. T or F: In all time fielding percentage for shortstops, Ozzie Smith rates somewhere between David Eckstein and Stephen Drew.

How'd you do!?


Wrong questions :)

T or F: Ozzie Smith ranks first among short stops in WAR (which takes account both offense and defense).

That's why he is and should be in the HOF.
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#67 Willihammer

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Posted 10 January 2014 - 12:20 PM

There were 124 pitchers who threw min. 1000 IP and whose careers partially or totally are captured in the years 1977-1994. They are

[TABLE="width: 500"]
[TR]
[TD][TABLE="width: 224"]
[TR]
[TD]Row Labels[/TD]
[TD]Sum of WAR[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Roger Clemens[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]139.2[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Tom Seaver[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]106.1[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Greg Maddux[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]104.8[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Randy Johnson[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]104.1[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Phil Niekro[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]97.3[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Bert Blyleven[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]96.4[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Gaylord Perry[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]93.6[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Pedro Martinez[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]85.9[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Steve Carlton[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]84[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Nolan Ryan[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]83.7[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Fergie Jenkins[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]82.7[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Mike Mussina[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]82.7[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Curt Schilling[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]80.7[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Tom Glavine[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]74[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Don Sutton[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]68.8[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Kevin Brown[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]68.7[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Rick Reuschel[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]68.2[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Jim Palmer[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]67.9[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]John Smoltz[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]66.6[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Luis Tiant[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]65.9[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Tommy John[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]62.2[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]David Cone[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]61.8[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Bret Saberhagen[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]59.2[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Chuck Finley[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]58.4[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Frank Tanana[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]57.6[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Jerry Koosman[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]57.2[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Dave Stieb[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]56.8[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Kevin Appier[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]55[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]David Wells[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]53.5[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Wilbur Wood[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]52.3[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Orel Hershiser[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]51.7[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Kenny Rogers[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]51.1[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Jamie Moyer[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]50.3[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Mark Langston[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]50.2[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Jimmy Key[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]49.4[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Mickey Lolich[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]48.9[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Dwight Gooden[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]48[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Ron Guidry[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]47.9[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Frank Viola[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]47.3[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Steve Rogers[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]45.4[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Jim Kaat[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]45.4[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Vida Blue[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]45.1[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Jack Morris[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]43.9[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Bob Welch[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]43.6[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Al Leiter[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]42.7[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Tom Candiotti[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]42.6[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Rich Gossage[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]41.9[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Danny Darwin[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]40.6[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]John Candelaria[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]40.1[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Charlie Hough[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]39.3[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Jon Matlack[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]39[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Mark Gubicza[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]37.6[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Andy Messersmith[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]37.4[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Fernando Valenzuela[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]37.3[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Burt Hooton[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]36.5[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Catfish Hunter[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]36.5[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Jose Rijo[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]35[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Tom Gordon[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]35[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Bruce Hurst[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]35[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Doyle Alexander[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]34.8[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Larry Dierker[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]34.4[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]John Tudor[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]34.3[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Tim Wakefield[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]34.3[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Charlie Leibrandt[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]34.3[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Pat Hentgen[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]33[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Jerry Reuss[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]32.8[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Rick Wise[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]32[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Mike Boddicker[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]31.7[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Andy Benes[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]31.4[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]John Hiller[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]31.4[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Sid Fernandez[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]31.3[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Rick Sutcliffe[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]31.2[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]John Denny[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]31.1[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Teddy Higuera[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]30.7[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Jim Barr[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]30.6[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Greg Swindell[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]30.3[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Rick Rhoden[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]30.1[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Scott Sanderson[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]29.7[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Lee Smith[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]29.5[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Mike Cuellar[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]29.5[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Kevin Tapani[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]29.2[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Mike Morgan[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]29[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Joe Niekro[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]28.6[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Pedro Astacio[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]28.5[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Mike Moore[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]28.2[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Trevor Hoffman[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]28.2[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Jack McDowell[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]27.9[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Alex Fernandez[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]27.8[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Doug Drabek[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]27.7[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Woody Williams[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]27.7[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Ken Forsch[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]27.1[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Ken Holtzman[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]27.1[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Mario Soto[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]26.8[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Tim Belcher[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]26.8[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Floyd Bannister[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]26.4[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Dennis Leonard[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]26.3[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Dave Stewart[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]26.2[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Kevin Gross[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]26.2[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Ramon Martinez[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]26.1[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Kent Tekulve[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]26.1[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Mike Flanagan[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]26[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Gary Nolan[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]25.8[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Jon Lieber[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]25.5[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Jeff Fassero[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]25.2[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Joe Coleman[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]25.1[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Charles Nagy[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]25.1[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Rollie Fingers[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]25.1[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Ron Reed[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]25.1[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Wilson Alvarez[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]25[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Dan Quisenberry[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]24.8[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Scott Erickson[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]24.8[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Steve Trachsel[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]24.8[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Juan Guzman[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]24.7[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Chris Bosio[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]24.6[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Bob Ojeda[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]24.6[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Ismael Valdez[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]24.5[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Bruce Sutter[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]24.5[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Mike Torrez[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]24.1[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Stan Bahnsen[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]24[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Mike Scott[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]23.9[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Bill Gullickson[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]23.9[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Bob Stanley[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]23.9[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]John Franco[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]23.5[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Dave Goltz[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]23.4[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
There's Morris at 43.

#68 Brock Beauchamp

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Posted 10 January 2014 - 12:21 PM

Quick Quiz...

Name:____________________

1. T or F: Ozzie Smith is in the Hall of Fame.

2. T or F: In all time batting average for shortstops, Ozzie Smith rates somewhere between Trevor Plouffe and Jason Bartlett.

3. T or F: In all time fielding percentage for shortstops, Ozzie Smith rates somewhere between David Eckstein and Stephen Drew.

How'd you do!?


Reggie Jackson had the same batting average as Ozzie Smith.

Obviously, we should keep him out of the Hall for that.

#69 ashburyjohn

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Posted 10 January 2014 - 12:23 PM

Reggie Jackson had the same batting average as Ozzie Smith.

Obviously, we should keep him out of the Hall for that.


His BA was better than Koufax's though. I vote to keep him in.

#70 Hosken Bombo Disco

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Posted 10 January 2014 - 12:45 PM

Wrong questions :)

T or F: Ozzie Smith ranks first among short stops in WAR (which takes account both offense and defense).

That's why he is and should be in the HOF.


Oh this is the Hall of Sabermetrics thread?-- I thought we were in the Hall of Fame thread *face palm* :)

Seriously I do agree that Morris's numbers fall short. The great Detroit teams with Sparky, Gibson, Trammel, Whitaker, the ace of those great teams was Morris. Hands down. He's kind of the last guy from the by gone era when pitchers pitched complete games on 3 days rest (which would put GMs jobs at stake today) and when DL trips were few and far between. Oh well. There's the 1991 Game 7 display in the HOF so that makes me feel better. Bottom line for me is Morris will be remembered.

#71 bwille

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Posted 10 January 2014 - 01:00 PM

What is being forgotten in this article that I wrote was that my argument for Morris is not solely based on statistics or any Sabermetrics analysis. The reason I used the Puckett comparison is to show that statistics aren't the only reason a player gets elected to the Hall. I do not believe that Puckett's statistics alone got him in the Hall. To me, there has to be more to it than that. That is why I believe that Morris deserved to be in the Hall as well because there are other factors besides his statistics that make him a Hall of Famer in my book. Is there merit in the statistical argument? Absolutely; but to me, statistics are not the sole thing that gets someone elected into the Hall of Fame because if the Hall was solely based on statistics and statistics alone, then the PED users and guys like Pete Rose deserve to be in. Instead, these players are banished because of their behavior or decisions. Morris may have had a bristly personality and it may have turned some people away, but I do not believe that should prevent voters from voting for him. They may have based their decision on Sabermetrics or whatever, but I do not believe that is solely right.

If you look at pitchers from the early 1900s and you see that they won an astronomical number of games--records that will likely never be broken--with an astounding number of starts and innings and then tried to compare all other pitchers from different eras to that era, nobody would come close to their production. No pitchers would be allowed in because if we judged everyone by the standard set then, everyone would fall short. Players are different now. The game is different now. Should we leave people out from different eras who were the best players of their respective eras even though it statistical doesn't compare well to other eras? I believe the answer to that is no and I'm sorry, but no statistical or Sabermetrical analysis will change that opinion for me.

At some point, the Hall of Fame needs to take into consideration more than just statistics and I believe, in some aspects, they already do. I argue that if you solely base your justifications on statistics and Sabermetrics, the Hall of Fame's standards are very fluid. The eye test is very subjective, but it still has some weight and if managers like Bobby Cox (one of the greatest of all time) are endorsing Jack Morris, there has to be something there. Does not being in the Hall of Fame mean that Morris had a poor career? No, but I do believe he was worthy of being elected and the fact that he wasn't elected frustrates me.

#72 Brock Beauchamp

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Posted 10 January 2014 - 01:16 PM

The reason I used the Puckett comparison is to show that statistics aren't the only reason a player gets elected to the Hall. I do not believe that Puckett's statistics alone got him in the Hall. To me, there has to be more to it than that. That is why I believe that Morris deserved to be in the Hall as well because there are other factors besides his statistics that make him a Hall of Famer in my book.


Let's be honest here. Puckett was a first ballot sympathy vote. An extremely talented player that everybody loved, a guy who had one of the most memorable WS moments in history, a guy whose career was cut short at age 36 when he was still a very productive player.

At his peak, Puckett was an incredible player. Do his counting stats warrant a HoF vote? No, they probably don't... But voters took into consideration that his career was cut short by as many as three productive seasons and voted for him anyway. There's your difference. Jack Morris had a full, productive career. Puckett had three-quarters of a career before retiring due to glaucoma.

If you look at pitchers from the early 1900s and you see that they won an astronomical number of games--records that will likely never be broken--with an astounding number of starts and innings and then tried to compare all other pitchers from different eras to that era, nobody would come close to their production. No pitchers would be allowed in because if we judged everyone by the standard set then, everyone would fall short. Players are different now. The game is different now. Should we leave people out from different eras who were the best players of their respective eras even though it statistical doesn't compare well to other eras? I believe the answer to that is no and I'm sorry, but no statistical or Sabermetrical analysis will change that opinion for me.


But was Morris the best player of his generation? He was the most durable, sure. But the best? It's hard to make that argument. At any given moment in Morris' career, there was somebody else in the limelight, whether it was Hershiser, Saberhagen, Clemens, or Gooden.

#73 Brad Swanson

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Posted 10 January 2014 - 01:21 PM

I have to admit, I don't fully understand the Puckett comparison. Puckett doesn't meet the longevity argument because he lost his career to an eye condition at a youngish age. Most of Morris' argument comes partially from his longevity. Puckett got in because he was dynamic while active and I'm guessing some voters projected some productivity from the years that he lost to his condition.

The Opening Day starts and Game 1 World Series starts are nice, but you can't just measure a player on those factors. Look at Dan Petry's stats from 1982-1985. I think it is fair to say he was at least as good as Morris, if not better. But, he was four years younger and had been with the team for less time. In addition, Morris was the Opening Day starter in 1989, 1990, 1992 and 1993, all seasons in which he didn't really pitch like an "Ace."

It's great that he was the best pitcher of his exact era, but how many pitchers pitched the exact same years that Morris did?

"Let's get after it." ~ Someone on the Twins, probably.
Kevin Slowey was Framed!


#74 cmathewson

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Posted 10 January 2014 - 02:18 PM

Let's be honest here. Puckett was a first ballot sympathy vote. An extremely talented player that everybody loved, a guy who had one of the most memorable WS moments in history, a guy whose career was cut short at age 36 when he was still a very productive player.

At his peak, Puckett was an incredible player. Do his counting stats warrant a HoF vote? No, they probably don't... But voters took into consideration that his career was cut short by as many as three productive seasons and voted for him anyway. There's your difference. Jack Morris had a full, productive career. Puckett had three-quarters of a career before retiring due to glaucoma.



But was Morris the best player of his generation? He was the most durable, sure. But the best? It's hard to make that argument. At any given moment in Morris' career, there was somebody else in the limelight, whether it was Hershiser, Saberhagen, Clemens, or Gooden.


Right. He never won a Cy Young award, for example.
"If you'da been thinkin' you wouldn't 'a thought that.."

#75 OldManWinter

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Posted 10 January 2014 - 02:22 PM

Spy cake @ 10:32am. Records you want? Blyleven got Roberts record of HR's allowed.
If the focus to leave both of them out on the face of HR's allowed there would be a case. Neither were the most dominant pitcher in their era either.

But, they are both in.

#76 cmathewson

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Posted 10 January 2014 - 02:23 PM

I have to admit, I don't fully understand the Puckett comparison. Puckett doesn't meet the longevity argument because he lost his career to an eye condition at a youngish age. Most of Morris' argument comes partially from his longevity. Puckett got in because he was dynamic while active and I'm guessing some voters projected some productivity from the years that he lost to his condition.

The Opening Day starts and Game 1 World Series starts are nice, but you can't just measure a player on those factors. Look at Dan Petry's stats from 1982-1985. I think it is fair to say he was at least as good as Morris, if not better. But, he was four years younger and had been with the team for less time. In addition, Morris was the Opening Day starter in 1989, 1990, 1992 and 1993, all seasons in which he didn't really pitch like an "Ace."

It's great that he was the best pitcher of his exact era, but how many pitchers pitched the exact same years that Morris did?


If you wanted to contrast two players from the same era, you would be hard pressed to pick two more different players. In particular, Kirby was a 90 on a scale of 100 in intangibles. Morris was a 40. He had all the competitiveness of Puck, with none of the charm.

(Now, Puck was voted in before all his off-field stuff came to light. I'm not sure he would have made the Veteran's Committee vote if he hadn't been voted in.)
"If you'da been thinkin' you wouldn't 'a thought that.."

#77 nicksaviking

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Posted 10 January 2014 - 02:36 PM

What is being forgotten in this article that I wrote was that my argument for Morris is not solely based on statistics or any Sabermetrics analysis. The reason I used the Puckett comparison is to show that statistics aren't the only reason a player gets elected to the Hall. I do not believe that Puckett's statistics alone got him in the Hall. To me, there has to be more to it than that. That is why I believe that Morris deserved to be in the Hall as well because there are other factors besides his statistics that make him a Hall of Famer in my book.


Acutally this is why Morris does not belong in the Hall of Fame. Puckett got into the Hall because his reputation during his playing days and upon his retirement was that he was a HOF caliber player. This is evidenced by his high vote total his first year eligible and the many All-Star game appearances and MVP votes he got. He didn't need the stats to get in.

Morris was struggling to get 20% of the vote on his first ballots and didn't get nearly the All-Star and Cy Young love that Puckett got. That demonstrates "the other factors" were not there for Morris, at least not like they were for other Hall of Famers who made it in based on reputation over stats.

Puckett was recognized as a HOF player while he was active, Morris was not. What could have changed?

#78 old nurse

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Posted 10 January 2014 - 04:25 PM

There were 124 pitchers who threw min. 1000 IP and whose careers partially or totally are captured in the years 1977-1994. They are

[TABLE="width: 500"]
[TR]
[TD][TABLE="width: 224"]
[TR]
[TD]Row Labels[/TD]
[TD]Sum of WAR[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Roger Clemens[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]139.2[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Tom Seaver[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]106.1[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Greg Maddux[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]104.8[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Randy Johnson[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]104.1[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Phil Niekro[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]97.3[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Bert Blyleven[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]96.4[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Gaylord Perry[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]93.6[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Pedro Martinez[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]85.9[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Steve Carlton[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]84[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Nolan Ryan[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]83.7[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Fergie Jenkins[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]82.7[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Mike Mussina[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]82.7[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Curt Schilling[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]80.7[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Tom Glavine[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]74[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Don Sutton[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]68.8[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Kevin Brown[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]68.7[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Rick Reuschel[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]68.2[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Jim Palmer[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]67.9[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]John Smoltz[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]66.6[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Luis Tiant[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]65.9[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Tommy John[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]62.2[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]David Cone[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]61.8[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Bret Saberhagen[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]59.2[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Chuck Finley[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]58.4[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Frank Tanana[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]57.6[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Jerry Koosman[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]57.2[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Dave Stieb[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]56.8[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Kevin Appier[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]55[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]David Wells[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]53.5[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Wilbur Wood[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]52.3[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Orel Hershiser[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]51.7[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Kenny Rogers[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]51.1[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Jamie Moyer[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]50.3[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Mark Langston[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]50.2[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Jimmy Key[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]49.4[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Mickey Lolich[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]48.9[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Dwight Gooden[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]48[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Ron Guidry[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]47.9[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Frank Viola[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]47.3[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Steve Rogers[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]45.4[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Jim Kaat[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]45.4[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Vida Blue[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]45.1[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Jack Morris[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]43.9[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Bob Welch[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]43.6[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Al Leiter[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]42.7[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Tom Candiotti[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]42.6[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Rich Gossage[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]41.9[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Danny Darwin[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]40.6[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]John Candelaria[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]40.1[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Charlie Hough[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]39.3[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Jon Matlack[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]39[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Mark Gubicza[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]37.6[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Andy Messersmith[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]37.4[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Fernando Valenzuela[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]37.3[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Burt Hooton[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]36.5[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Catfish Hunter[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]36.5[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Jose Rijo[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]35[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Tom Gordon[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]35[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Bruce Hurst[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]35[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Doyle Alexander[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]34.8[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Larry Dierker[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]34.4[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]John Tudor[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]34.3[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Tim Wakefield[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]34.3[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Charlie Leibrandt[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]34.3[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Pat Hentgen[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]33[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Jerry Reuss[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]32.8[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Rick Wise[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]32[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Mike Boddicker[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]31.7[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Andy Benes[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]31.4[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]John Hiller[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]31.4[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Sid Fernandez[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]31.3[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Rick Sutcliffe[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]31.2[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]John Denny[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]31.1[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Teddy Higuera[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]30.7[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Jim Barr[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]30.6[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Greg Swindell[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]30.3[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Rick Rhoden[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]30.1[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Scott Sanderson[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]29.7[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Lee Smith[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]29.5[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Mike Cuellar[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]29.5[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Kevin Tapani[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]29.2[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Mike Morgan[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]29[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Joe Niekro[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]28.6[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Pedro Astacio[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]28.5[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Mike Moore[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]28.2[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Trevor Hoffman[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]28.2[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Jack McDowell[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]27.9[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Alex Fernandez[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]27.8[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Doug Drabek[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]27.7[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Woody Williams[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]27.7[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Ken Forsch[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]27.1[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Ken Holtzman[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]27.1[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Mario Soto[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]26.8[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Tim Belcher[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]26.8[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Floyd Bannister[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]26.4[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Dennis Leonard[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]26.3[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Dave Stewart[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]26.2[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Kevin Gross[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]26.2[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Ramon Martinez[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]26.1[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Kent Tekulve[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]26.1[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Mike Flanagan[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]26[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Gary Nolan[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]25.8[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Jon Lieber[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]25.5[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Jeff Fassero[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]25.2[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Joe Coleman[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]25.1[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Charles Nagy[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]25.1[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Rollie Fingers[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]25.1[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Ron Reed[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]25.1[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Wilson Alvarez[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]25[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Dan Quisenberry[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]24.8[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Scott Erickson[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]24.8[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Steve Trachsel[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]24.8[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Juan Guzman[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]24.7[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Chris Bosio[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]24.6[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Bob Ojeda[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]24.6[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Ismael Valdez[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]24.5[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Bruce Sutter[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]24.5[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Mike Torrez[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]24.1[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Stan Bahnsen[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]24[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Mike Scott[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]23.9[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Bill Gullickson[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]23.9[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Bob Stanley[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]23.9[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]John Franco[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]23.5[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Dave Goltz[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]23.4[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD][/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
There's Morris at 43.


In your method of looking at players you would then consider Randy Johnson, Vida Blue and Jim Kaat contemporaries of Morris. That hardly refutes the notion that Morris was the dominate pitcher of the 1980's.

#79 Thrylos

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Posted 10 January 2014 - 04:56 PM

In your method of looking at players you would then consider Randy Johnson, Vida Blue and Jim Kaat contemporaries of Morris. That hardly refutes the notion that Morris was the dominate pitcher of the 1980's.


Randy Johnson is in a different stratosphere than Morris and the others mentioned here. Same era, but dominant, unlike Morris. There are 38 pitchers between Randy Johnson and Morris. And there are 24 pitchers between Morris and the closest Hall of Famer (Jim Palmer.) And, yes, Gooden and Viola (and Wells and Stieb) were true Aces (unlike Morris) in Morris' time but they are not in the Hall as well.
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#80 Jim H

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Posted 10 January 2014 - 05:11 PM

I don't really get worked about Hall of Fame votes, for a great many reasons. But one of the things to keep in mind with the Hall of Fame (in other sports as well) it is really the Hall of the Famous. There were contemparies of Brooks Robinson whose numbers are roughly comparable, they just didn't happen to play for as good of a team or put on an incredible World Series defensive performance just when TV was becoming big.

In the case of Blyleven, he had no chance of getting into the Hall of Fame until he became a broadcaster and basically compaigned for it for 10 years. That doesn't mean he didn't deserve it necessarily, but he had never had a great series of peak years, he wasn't the ace on any of the playoff teams he played for, and spent some of his best years in Texas, Minnesota and Cleveland when nobody was paying any attention to those teams.


To some degree, whether it is fair or not, all marginal candidates run into those sort of issues. You need something to set you apart from the crowd if your numbers don't clearly put you in the Hall of Fame. Hall of Fame voters are going to get ripped no matter what they do. Everyone has different standards for the Hall of Fame and virtually any marginal selection will be picked apart by someone. Even here, everyone is all over the place on Jack Morris.

#81 darin617

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Posted 10 January 2014 - 05:21 PM

Jack Morris is not a HOF pitcher. High era 3.90 and a K/9 that any current Twins pitcher would kill for 5.6K/9 does not make you think of a pitcher deserving of the HOF. If he was worthy how many Cy Young awards does he own? The answer zero. So you can't even say he was ever the best pitcher in any season of his career. I am not a Morris hater just telling it the way I see it.
I would like to thank him for the 2 World Series games that he won as a Twin.

#82 one_eyed_jack

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Posted 10 January 2014 - 05:28 PM

I always enjoy following the debates on controversial candidates - I hear different perspectives, and I learn.

I do not view Morris as a Hall-of-Famer. I see him as a good pitcher who had some great, even historic, moments. But my view of a Hall-of-Famer is a guy who showed consistent excellence over a long period of time. I'm a lot more moved by 10 great seasons over the course of a decade than 10 great innings on one October day.

It seems to me that the case for Morris is based on the "feel" test - the BBHOF version of Potter Stewart's "I can't define it but I know it when I see it" test for obscenity. (I do not consider the silly "pitch to the score" rebuttals to his chubby ERA worthy of consideration.) He was a guy who was thought of as an ace and a big-game pitcher for a long time. So people think he belongs. A lot of voters use the "feel" test. For example, Dan Shaugnessy with his decision not to vote for Biggio (though he made a feeble attempt to justify it with stats by saying that Biggio only had one 200-hit season, so he wasn't a dominant 2B like Roberto Alomar, ignoring the fact that Alomar never had a 200-hit season.)

I get where people are going with that. Some guys just have that superstar aura about them. But the problem with taking that into account in HOF voting is that often times that's a product of things like their personality or media hype that have little to do with how good they actually are. I guess I wouldn't totally object to that being considered a little bit, maybe to push a borderline candidate in.

But that kind of stuff is the icing on the cake, not the cake itself.

#83 old nurse

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Posted 10 January 2014 - 06:15 PM

Randy Johnson is in a different stratosphere than Morris and the others mentioned here. Same era, but dominant, unlike Morris. There are 38 pitchers between Randy Johnson and Morris. And there are 24 pitchers between Morris and the closest Hall of Famer (Jim Palmer.) And, yes, Gooden and Viola (and Wells and Stieb) were true Aces (unlike Morris) in Morris' time but they are not in the Hall as well.


The argument put forth was Morris was one of the best pitchers of his era. While there are some overlaps in the careers of players Randy Johnson defined the 90's, not the 80's. For the pitchers that pitched during the 80's people can manipulate the statistics to show that within his age group he was a top pitcher for a longer period of time than most. In this thread I have not advocated that Morris be elected or later selected for HOF. I thought I clearly said the statistics would show that for the Morriscontemporaries, they all were good but not great.

Fielding independent type pitching statistics were most preferred when talking of the shortcomings of Twins pitchers this winter. For Morris the runs allowed formula is preferred as it shows him in worse light.

#84 Alex

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Posted 10 January 2014 - 06:52 PM

Fielding independent type pitching statistics were most preferred when talking of the shortcomings of Twins pitchers this winter. For Morris the runs allowed formula is preferred as it shows him in worse light.


It does?

Career ERA: 3.90 Career FIP 3.94

Could you explain how FIP shows him in a better light? He ranks 659th amongst starting pitchers with more than 1000 IP.

#85 Brock Beauchamp

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Posted 10 January 2014 - 06:58 PM

I don't really get worked about Hall of Fame votes, for a great many reasons. But one of the things to keep in mind with the Hall of Fame (in other sports as well) it is really the Hall of the Famous. There were contemparies of Brooks Robinson whose numbers are roughly comparable, they just didn't happen to play for as good of a team or put on an incredible World Series defensive performance just when TV was becoming big.


I'm curious about this. Could you elaborate? I never saw Robinson play but only heard people rave about him, which makes sense given his absurd 78 career WAR.

#86 OldManWinter

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Posted 10 January 2014 - 08:26 PM

I am curious.

Does anyone have access to attendance figures when Morris was pitching compared to others.

What wwas Morris' contract compared to the best AL pitchers of his era?

#87 Thrylos

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Posted 10 January 2014 - 08:45 PM

I'm curious about this. Could you elaborate? I never saw Robinson play but only heard people rave about him, which makes sense given his absurd 78 career WAR.


Have you seen Ozzie Smith play? Very similar defensively but with better bat and most of his years hitting against the raised mound. His nickname? "Human Vacuum Cleaner". Hope that helps.
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#88 Thrylos

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Posted 10 January 2014 - 08:47 PM

What wwas Morris' contract compared to the best AL pitchers of his era?


This is as relevant as Barry Zito's contract compared to the best AL pitchers of his era or Mike Hampton's contract compared to the best NL pitchers of his era.

Edited by Thrylos, 10 January 2014 - 09:00 PM.

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#89 Thrylos

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Posted 10 January 2014 - 08:59 PM

I am curious.

Does anyone have access to attendance figures when Morris was pitching compared to others.


Sure. As far as the 1991 Twins go, you can find them all here. Not that much difference in home games than other pitchers. Weekends have more attendance than weekdays. Record attendance in '87 with around 55K people was in a game that Mike Smithson started. On a Friday. Means nothing. Really.
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#90 stringer bell

stringer bell

    Front office apologist

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Posted 10 January 2014 - 09:46 PM

Really good discussion here. I fall in the no-Jack camp and think the arguments against Morris are pretty compelling. While a deeper look at stats advanced Blyleven's case, the same deeper look at Jack's numbers didn't improve his chances. Morris was a very good pitcher for a long time and had the classic mythic moment in the '91 series, but neither the dominance and counting numbers are there. As the Pig mentioned, it isn't right to compare his situation to Puckett's. Kirby was megapopular inside and outside of clubhouses and Morris was more akin to AJ. That Morris got as close as he did to election is kind of a last gasp of traditionalists IMHO.