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Chris Parmelee trade value?

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#1 darin617

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Posted 23 December 2013 - 11:16 PM

Does Chris Parmelee have any trade value at all? He is nothing more than another one of a group of AAAA players that never panned out. Is he worth holding onto in hopes that he can have some value as a MN Twin? Or does he get a shot and if he has a poor spring training he gets DFA?

#2 goliath

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Posted 23 December 2013 - 11:42 PM

We'll find out when Baltimore trades him.

#3 Highabove

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Posted 24 December 2013 - 12:31 AM

https://encrypted-tb...uw5tkR7R0wM3tAN Here's your answer.

#4 Bark's Lounge

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Posted 24 December 2013 - 12:54 AM

Sure, the last two seasons have done nothing to inspire any confidence in Parmelee, but he will only be 26 in the upcoming season. I really see no reason to abandon ship on this young man as of yet, unless their is some cluster**** roster crunch.

Hell, Michael Cuddyer was 25 before he made an okay contribution to the Twins. He was 27 in his breakout season. Parmelee is not some blue hair - he certainly deserves another chance to prove he can cut the mustard.

If the Twins cut bait - I can envision seeing a post or more in the next few seasons, lambasting the Twins for giving up on Parmelee because he has become a 20HR, .280BA kind of player who plays a respectable RF and a solid 1B... for the Orioles.

#5 jorgenswest

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Posted 24 December 2013 - 01:13 AM

Jerry Sands was just released and he was a better prospect.

Fringe players out of options have little trade value. They might be able to swap him for another out of options player. If they could find an out of options CF from a team looking for a left handed bat it might work.

#6 old nurse

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Posted 24 December 2013 - 05:52 AM

Sands, Castellanos, and the like for the most part become Wilkin Ramirez and Clete Thomas.

#7 diehardtwinsfan

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Posted 24 December 2013 - 09:08 AM

I'm going with "not much". I think the Twins would be wise to let him play every day and see if he can figure it out. He's shown he can hit major league pitching in the past... He just needs to adjust to whatever they've done since then.

#8 Alex

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Posted 24 December 2013 - 09:17 AM

Does Chris Parmelee have any trade value at all? He is nothing more than another one of a group of AAAA players that never panned out. Is he worth holding onto in hopes that he can have some value as a MN Twin? Or does he get a shot and if he has a poor spring training he gets DFA?


He's basically there in case of injury at this point. If he isn't going to play ahead of Kubel, as it appears, then he has no trade value. No one is going to trade anything significant when he'll likely be available for free at some point before the season starts.

The bottom line is, though, that if a player can't find his way onto the punchless Twins at this point, he's really got no value.

#9 jorgenswest

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Posted 24 December 2013 - 09:31 AM

The Twins never gave him consistent play time. It could be that they assessed through in watching him in the organization that he does not have the skill of an everyday player. That assessment may be correct.

If they believed he has that potential, they missed an opportunity to invest in that potential. How many extra wins did a Doumit give them last year while starting at DH or corner OF while Parmelee was on the bench? These are the choices teams in a cycle of mediocrity make. They play the higher floor low upside veteran over developing a younger player.

It can take 1000 plate appearances for a player to develop. After 2+ seasons Parmelee isn't close. The Parmelee question should be a lot clearer now. Like Hendriks, who was not given a long consistent opportunity, the Twins must not believe in him.

Will it be the same for Arcia? Will they allow him to work through his struggle, endure his defensive and base running mistakes and stick with him through games where it looks like he has no idea at the plate? The Twins better be willing to invest at bats and innings into this wave of prospects coming through they system and stick with them through the adjustment.

#10 Shane Wahl

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Posted 24 December 2013 - 09:43 AM

Parmelee was never going to be starter on a good team, but that doesn't mean he doesn't have value for the Twins. That Willingham is still on this team is a ridiculous mystery, so Parmelee is going to have some trouble getting playing time to establish trade value for other teams.

#11 Alex

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Posted 24 December 2013 - 09:48 AM

The Twins never gave him consistent play time. It could be that they assessed through in watching him in the organization that he does not have the skill of an everyday player. That assessment may be correct.

If they believed he has that potential, they missed an opportunity to invest in that potential. How many extra wins did a Doumit give them last year while starting at DH or corner OF while Parmelee was on the bench? These are the choices teams in a cycle of mediocrity make. They play the higher floor low upside veteran over developing a younger player.

It can take 1000 plate appearances for a player to develop. After 2+ seasons Parmelee isn't close. The Parmelee question should be a lot clearer now. Like Hendriks, who was not given a long consistent opportunity, the Twins must not believe in him.

Will it be the same for Arcia? Will they allow him to work through his struggle, endure his defensive and base running mistakes and stick with him through games where it looks like he has no idea at the plate? The Twins better be willing to invest at bats and innings into this wave of prospects coming through they system and stick with them through the adjustment.


I agree completely with this, and certainly their handling of him has affected his trade value to some extent (of course, if he was terrible that woudn't have helped either) but by handling him the way they have, there's no way the get anything in trade for him.

#12 Shane Wahl

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Posted 24 December 2013 - 10:00 AM

At this point, Parmelee also needs to be able to play left field. I know somewhere Gardenhire or Ryan made some claim about Parmelee not being able to do so. But, good grief, they put him in center when they needed to do so. With Mauer's move to first, the signing of Kubel, the development of Arcia (I will be angry if they keep him in AAA for any amount of time), and the insistence of keeping Willingham . . .

#13 jorgenswest

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Posted 24 December 2013 - 12:25 PM

Compare Justin Morneau's first 2+ seasons.

His slash line was 248/313/461. He had an OPS+ of 93 his second full season. They also invested 970 plate appearances in those seasons. There was no question that he would get playing time in his third season. Parmelee wasn't given a similar investment. Maybe his skills didn't warrant it, but that can not be determined by the data. With the exception of playing time, it is too similar.

I think it was Bill James who once studied an experience managers preference for playing veteran players and impatience with younger players. If that is the case with Gardenhire, the Twins need to make a change soon before the rest of the prospects follow Arcia and Pinto to the big club.

Maybe it isn't a concern. He did have tremendous patience with Hicks. He also didn't have another CF option on he roster for much of that time.

#14 howieramone1406390264

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Posted 24 December 2013 - 12:39 PM

Compare Justin Morneau's first 2+ seasons.

His slash line was 248/313/461. He had an OPS+ of 93 his second full season. They also invested 970 plate appearances in those seasons. There was no question that he would get playing time in his third season. Parmelee wasn't given a similar investment. Maybe his skills didn't warrant it, but that can not be determined by the data. With the exception of playing time, it is too similar.

I think it was Bill James who once studied an experience managers preference for playing veteran players and impatience with younger players. If that is the case with Gardenhire, the Twins need to make a change soon before the rest of the prospects follow Arcia and Pinto to the big club.

Maybe it isn't a concern. He did have tremendous patience with Hicks. He also didn't have another CF option on he roster for much of that time.


I think a better comparison maybe Joe Benson. I'm not sure who Bill James is, but my high school and college coaches had the same preference.

#15 twinsfaninsaudi

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Posted 24 December 2013 - 01:58 PM

I'm not sure who Bill James is...

.

Uh-oh. I advise you to watch your back around these parts my friend.

#16 Danchat

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Posted 24 December 2013 - 02:56 PM

He has no trade value, but he has to get better this year. I think he figures out how to hit a fastball and he hits .260 with 15 HRs if he's given the ABs for it.

And if we cut bait on him, we all know who will claim him... the Orioles.

#17 stringer bell

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Posted 24 December 2013 - 04:20 PM

Spring Training will be important for Parmelee. I think he has a chance to win a spot on the team and if he's moderately promising more teams would be interested in him as a low-cost lottery ticket. He's younger, a better fielder, and more versatile than either Colabello or Kubel. Mauer, Hammer, and Arcia all figure to be ahead of Parm, for sure. Kubel will probably have the inside track to be the DH and he has a track record of as a good hitter until the last year and a half. It is pretty likely that somebody will suffer an injury and there is a pretty good likelihood that Willingham will be traded by the deadline. Parmelee needs to win a spot and then perform or he won't be with the Twins much longer.

#18 minn55441

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Posted 24 December 2013 - 04:52 PM

I think a better comparison maybe Joe Benson. I'm not sure who Bill James is, but my high school and college coaches had the same preference.


I'm pretty sure that is sarcasm. As a matter of fact, I think it is hilarious.

#19 B Richard

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Posted 24 December 2013 - 07:23 PM

.

Uh-oh. I advise you to watch your back around these parts my friend.


Well he has two first names so we know we can't trust him! Haha, jokes aside, not knowing James isn't that big of a deal. You don't need to have read his abstracts to appreciate sabermetrics in today's game. I learned more from Tom Tango, or even just browsing Fangraph's library. (With that said, James is still the man)

Parm's situation is a difficult one, to be sure. I'm of the mindset that we should still give him some time (read: one more season) to see what he's got. I believe that dealing doumit was a good step in this direction. Some guys are late bloomers- maybe Parmelee is one of them. Regardess, after this season, we should have a definitive answer as to whether or not he's worth keeping. The key to this is giving him enough ABs to prove himself. Some consistent playing time wouldn't hurt. Tough situation with the roster, but I have to imagine we can DH him a fair amount of time and cycle him in RF when possible.
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#20 beckmt

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Posted 25 December 2013 - 01:19 AM

Kubel signed here because he believed he could make this club. Do not see Parmelee on the club unless he can beat out Kubel. May happen, but I doubt it. There is no reason to not give Arcia the bulk of corner outfield AB's, so Willingham will play the outfield and DH and Kubel will do the same. Twins also have Plouffe who will be in the same position when Sano arrives this year. My instincts say goodby to Chris.

#21 oldguy10

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Posted 25 December 2013 - 08:01 AM

How in the world can it be said that Parmelee has shown he can hit major league pitching in the past - that statement simply boggles the mind.

#22 goulik

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Posted 25 December 2013 - 09:31 AM

How in the world can it be said that Parmelee has shown he can hit major league pitching in the past - that statement simply boggles the mind.

He can hit it at least once every ten times at the plate!!

#23 Brock Beauchamp

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Posted 25 December 2013 - 09:36 AM

How in the world can it be said that Parmelee has shown he can hit major league pitching in the past - that statement simply boggles the mind.


Well, has shown that he can hit MLB pitching... The problem is that it's so infrequently that it's increasingly difficult to believe he will ever be an adequate MLB hitter overall.

The Twins should have collected enough information about Parmelee last season to make a decision. It was foolish to send him to Rochester and not play him everyday so we wouldn't have to go through this routine for the third consecutive season. Isn't that the point of a lost season? If you're not going to win, at least use the time to figure out who should be on the roster when you CAN win.

#24 goulik

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Posted 25 December 2013 - 09:41 AM

Well, has shown that he can hit MLB pitching... The problem is that it's so infrequently that it's increasingly difficult to believe he will ever be an adequate MLB hitter overall.

The Twins should have collected enough information about Parmelee last season to make a decision. It was foolish to send him to Rochester and not play him everyday so we wouldn't have to go through this routine for the third consecutive season. Isn't that the point of a lost season? If you're not going to win, at least use the time to figure out who should be on the roster when you CAN win.


AMEN!! The like button just does not agree emphatically enough!

#25 jorgenswest

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Posted 25 December 2013 - 10:22 AM

How in the world can it be said that Parmelee has shown he can hit major league pitching in the past - that statement simply boggles the mind.


He hasn't had enough time to use the data and say he won't hit major league pitching.

His OPS+ through 631 plate appearances is 98.
Cuddyer through 1109 was 97.
Morneau through 970 was 100.

Investing plate appearances in those two team control assets was critical to the success of the previous decade. If the Twins believe Parmelee has the ceiling of a major league regular, they should have been investing more plate appearances.

The Twins have a choice this year. They can play Willinghama or Kubel who will not be part of the future solution or they can invest regular playing time into Parmelee at a corner OF and see if he is part of the solution.

#26 Guest_USAFChief_*

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Posted 25 December 2013 - 10:32 AM

He hasn't had enough time to use the data and say he won't hit major league pitching.

His OPS+ through 631 plate appearances is 98.
Cuddyer through 1109 was 97.
Morneau through 970 was 100.

Investing plate appearances in those two team control assets was critical to the success of the previous decade. If the Twins believe Parmelee has the ceiling of a major league regular, they should have been investing more plate appearances.

The Twins have a choice this year. They can play Willinghama or Kubel who will not be part of the future solution or they can invest regular playing time into Parmelee at a corner OF and see if he is part of the solution.

And his OPS+ for his last 543 PAs is 84. He's done nothing to earn playing time since his incredible 88 PAs in Sep 2011.

How long do you want the Twins to keep losing 90+ games? Personally, I'm long past tired of it, and want the Twins to start putting better players on the field. If Kubel is better in 2014, play him. I could care less about the possibility Parmelee might be better in 2017.

#27 jorgenswest

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Posted 25 December 2013 - 12:26 PM

And his OPS+ for his last 543 PAs is 84. He's done nothing to earn playing time since his incredible 88 PAs in Sep 2011.

How long do you want the Twins to keep losing 90+ games? Personally, I'm long past tired of it, and want the Twins to start putting better players on the field. If Kubel is better in 2014, play him. I could care less about the possibility Parmelee might be better in 2017.


Should the Twins have said the same thing about Morneau in his second full season at 239/304/437? They gave him 543 plate appearances. He did nothing to earn his consistent regular opportunity that year. The Twins invested in his upside and received the pay off.

The Twins have not invested that consistent playing time into Parmelee.

A few other guys that received consistent playing time despite early struggles at the plate were Gaetti and Hunter. I did not include them with Cuddyer and Morneau because their gloves helped keep them on the field. All 4 players needed significant playing time before they were consistent contributors at the plate.

Some of the new wave of prospects may struggle at the plate the first 1000 plate appearances. Are the Twins willing to invest playing time and let them work through their struggles or will they give it to no upside decline phase veterans?

The Twins may have assessed that Parmelee does not have the upside of a major league regular. That assessment can only come from the observation of their staff. The data in a players first 600 plate appearance isn't near enough to support an assessment of future upside.

#28 Hosken Bombo Disco

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Posted 25 December 2013 - 12:36 PM

I like Parmelee. I'm thoroughly convinced he must have hit a home run at a game I attended once.

I like the Cuddyer comparison. I also like Cuddyer. I was thinking Parmelee deserved at least one more dedicated six week MLB tryout but then Terry Ryan went in "win now" free agent signing mode, so I think Parmelee only has Spring Training to show his stuff.

#29 Hosken Bombo Disco

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Posted 25 December 2013 - 12:44 PM

Should the Twins have said the same thing about Morneau in his second full season at 239/304/437? They gave him 543 plate appearances. He did nothing to earn his consistent regular opportunity that year. The Twins invested in his upside and received the pay off.

The Twins have not invested that consistent playing time into Parmelee.

A few other guys that received consistent playing time despite early struggles at the plate were Gaetti and Hunter. I did not include them with Cuddyer and Morneau because their gloves helped keep them on the field. All 4 players needed significant playing time before they were consistent contributors at the plate.

Some of the new wave of prospects may struggle at the plate the first 1000 plate appearances. Are the Twins willing to invest playing time and let them work through their struggles or will they give it to no upside decline phase veterans?

The Twins may have assessed that Parmelee does not have the upside of a major league regular. That assessment can only come from the observation of their staff. The data in a players first 600 plate appearance isn't near enough to support an assessment of future upside.


It's also worth noting that Morneau's and Cuddyer's young MLB development process came in the middle of pennant races. and IIRC both those guys had below average defense but in the same process became assets in the field. Why can't we develop talent anymore?

#30 TheLeviathan

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Posted 25 December 2013 - 12:54 PM

It's also worth noting that Morneau's and Cuddyer's young MLB development process came in the middle of pennant races. and IIRC both those guys had below average defense but in the same process became assets in the field. Why can't we develop talent anymore?


It's possible Parmelee just isn't talented enough, but there is no doubt he's had a shorter leash than several similar prospects we've brought up. I can't help but think that leash could be a factor in his struggles.

The man needed to get 600 ABs last year - even if he was awful for most of them.