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Article: Twins Trade Doumit to Braves

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#141 Steve Lein

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Posted 18 December 2013 - 08:30 PM

Agreed about Melotakis.

But when you are about $50M less that what you should be spending if you spent 52% of your revenue, why get rid of your best option out there (Duensing) instead of the rest (Albers, Thielbar, Diamond, etc.) Duensing was pretty darn good out of the pen the last 2 seasons. Last season with 3.24 he had the third FIP behind Perkins and Fien in the pen of any pitcher who pitched more than 12 innings. K/9 was 8.26, 4th, behind those guys and Burton who had 8.32. Inflation of other numbers because of his .348 BABIP is largely because of the Clydesdales trotting at the OF (and IF) corners. The Twins need to really fix that OF defense and today was a good step towards that.


Fair enough. I guess I've just been unimpressed by him out of the pen. I keep expecting better than what I've seen. What scares me the most with him though, because he is a reliever, is his WHIP. The only guy he was better than in the Twins pen last year in that stat, was Roenicke.

Scouting Report: Power: 30, Hitting: 50, Arm: 60, Defense: 40, Speed: 40. "Line drive swing and shows good contact and on-base abilities. Double's power at his peak. Strong arm from 2B or the OF, stiff hands. Not a fast runner, but above average instincts on the bases. Skinny body doesn't look the part, but can sneak up on you. ACL surgery sapped much of his athleticism." (Probably)


#142 biggentleben

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Posted 18 December 2013 - 08:33 PM

Trades only work that way when the other side has to make a trade. You aren't going to get a top 100-150 prospect for Doumit, Deduno/Worley, and a reliever. As it is, Gilmartin being in the Brave's top 5 is likely a 150-200 guy at worst, depending on the strength of their system. It doesn't work unless the other team is stuck trying to unload something that they cannot do otherwise. Even win now teams aren't going to be terribly excited about that package because it provides them little value (if any).


Top 15 is more accurate. And the Braves are a lower-tier system right now due to all their recent graduations, so think more like a prospect in the 400-500 range.
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#143 johnnydakota

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Posted 18 December 2013 - 08:33 PM

Trades only work that way when the other side has to make a trade. You aren't going to get a top 100-150 prospect for Doumit, Deduno/Worley, and a reliever. As it is, Gilmartin being in the Brave's top 5 is likely a 150-200 guy at worst, depending on the strength of their system. It doesn't work unless the other team is stuck trying to unload something that they cannot do otherwise. Even win now teams aren't going to be terribly excited about that package because it provides them little value (if any).


So Doumit, Parmelee,Worley, Duensing, Keplar and Bard wouldnt get you a top 100 prospect ?or how about say Burch Smith?

#144 biggentleben

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Posted 18 December 2013 - 08:35 PM

So Doumit, Parmelee,Worley, Duensing, Keplar and Bard wouldnt get you a top 100 prospect ?or how about say Burch Smith?


Why would any team say, "Hey, would you like to give us all your crap in one deal, and we'll reward you with a top 100 prospect?"

C'mon now.
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#145 spycake

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Posted 18 December 2013 - 08:39 PM

I like this move from Atlanta side, they identified a prospect who had no real value for them and found a taker, a year early from having to be protected....


Good observation! From Atlanta's perspective, this is a kind of trade TR could stand to make more often. Although we haven't had a surplus as Atlanta currently does on the pitching side.

#146 Riverbrian

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Posted 18 December 2013 - 08:40 PM

Agreed about Melotakis.

But when you are about $50M less that what you should be spending if you spent 52% of your revenue, why get rid of your best option out there (Duensing) instead of the rest (Albers, Thielbar, Diamond, etc.) Duensing was pretty darn good out of the pen the last 2 seasons. Last season with 3.24 he had the third FIP behind Perkins and Fien in the pen of any pitcher who pitched more than 12 innings. K/9 was 8.26, 4th, behind those guys and Burton who had 8.32. Inflation of other numbers because of his .348 BABIP is largely because of the Clydesdales trotting at the OF (and IF) corners. The Twins need to really fix that OF defense and today was a good step towards that.


Clydesdales can run approx. 30 MPH
Usain Bolt can run approx. 23.5 MPH

Just saying you are not being fair to Clydesdales. ;)

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I agree with you... This trade is a step toward much needed improvement of team defense on the corners.
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#147 kab21

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Posted 18 December 2013 - 08:44 PM

I think people need to consider that Doumit isn't a worthless player. The problem is that he didn't have a role on the Twins since they have several guys that shouldn't play in the field and they are rebuilding. Doumit is not worth 3.5 M to an NL team but he does fill the a role on an NL team better than an AL team. He's a pinch hitter from both sides of the plate. Doumit isn't a great option as a starting DH but the Braves weren't going to sign a guy that is capable of being a full time DH.

It should have also been clear that the Twins weren't going to outright cut/DFA a player like Doumit. Gilmartin is nothing but AAA depth (not terrible) but not likely to contribute in the majors. I'm just impressed that the Twins didn't have to kick in any money in the deal. It actually isn't important but it does make Gilmartin mostly irrelevant.

#148 kab21

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Posted 18 December 2013 - 08:50 PM

Why would any team say, "Hey, would you like to give us all your crap in one deal, and we'll reward you with a top 100 prospect?"

C'mon now.


I think this could be the standard reply to 80% of the proposed trades on here. I have never understand why people think they can add up a bunch of guys that a bad team doesn't want while including one decent prospect to get a better prospect.

#149 TheLeviathan

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Posted 18 December 2013 - 09:07 PM

I think this could be the standard reply to 80% of the proposed trades on here. I have never understand why people think they can add up a bunch of guys that a bad team doesn't want while including one decent prospect to get a better prospect.


Well their biggest problem is not including Brian Duensing. Obviously.

#150 Thrylos

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Posted 18 December 2013 - 09:17 PM

Fair enough. I guess I've just been unimpressed by him out of the pen. I keep expecting better than what I've seen. What scares me the most with him though, because he is a reliever, is his WHIP. The only guy he was better than in the Twins pen last year in that stat, was Roenicke.


BABIP drives WHIP. If you normalized his WHIP for league average BABIP you get 1.28. Normalize Thielbar's for league average BABIP and you get 1.38 FWIW...
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#151 howieramone1406390264

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Posted 18 December 2013 - 09:29 PM

I think people need to consider that Doumit isn't a worthless player. The problem is that he didn't have a role on the Twins since they have several guys that shouldn't play in the field and they are rebuilding. Doumit is not worth 3.5 M to an NL team but he does fill the a role on an NL team better than an AL team. He's a pinch hitter from both sides of the plate. Doumit isn't a great option as a starting DH but the Braves weren't going to sign a guy that is capable of being a full time DH.

It should have also been clear that the Twins weren't going to outright cut/DFA a player like Doumit. Gilmartin is nothing but AAA depth (not terrible) but not likely to contribute in the majors. I'm just impressed that the Twins didn't have to kick in any money in the deal. It actually isn't important but it does make Gilmartin mostly irrelevant.


You have no idea if this is true or not. What we do know is he was recently highly regarded, the Braves handled him in a unusual manner, and the Twins have been interested in him for some time. I would be very surprised if we don't see Gilmartin at Target Field at some point in time.

#152 TheLeviathan

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Posted 18 December 2013 - 09:35 PM

You have no idea if this is true or not. What we do know is he was recently highly regarded, the Braves handled him in a unusual manner, and the Twins have been interested in him for some time. I would be very surprised if we don't see Gilmartin at Target Field at some point in time.


If your evaluation was fair you'd also note that he's had shoulder issues and not performed well. None of us, including Ryan, know anything for certain.

It's nice we got someone like this for Doumit. I love the deal, but it's not sugar and spice and everything nice here either. The guy has some serious warts, that's why he was available.

#153 DocBauer

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Posted 18 December 2013 - 09:37 PM

Compelled to add my 2cents to the other $75 listed here. Lol

As I previously stated elsewhere, almost ever lineup I put together on paper for next year had Doumit as the 14th position player barring injury or just flat-out falling face in spring training.

So we trade a defensive liability who might not even make the club for something other than a bag of balls? Great!

It doesn't matter that the Twins still have free money on the books to spend. Now they have another $3.5 to add to the pot for a player they might end up cutting anyway.

And they have not only another roster spot on the 40 man, but room for another, possibly younger and potentially better player with some positional value on the 25 man. Where is the gripe?

Gilmartin is LH, young, up until this year a top 10 prospect, average FB with 3 other solid or better breaking ball and change of speed pitches who was clearly rushed through the Braves system, and endured a down year due to reported injury. As pointed out already, he's only 23! Even a return to AA to get his mojo back to begin the year wouldn't be a bad thing.

Even if he never achieves anything great, a potentially decent bullpen option, much less a decent 4th or 5th starter, for an extra piece that didn't fit in any longer, and saves us money to spend elsewhere, is a sound trade.

#154 Danchat

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Posted 18 December 2013 - 10:20 PM

I see Gilmartin's ceiling as a Anthony Swarzak-esque long reliever. I think he could crack the majors as a reliever, but I sure hope the Twins don't call him up as a starter....
And as everyone else has said, these pitchers are getting redundant. We need to DFA Kris Johnson and Albers...

#155 AM.

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Posted 18 December 2013 - 10:29 PM

This move is great, I like it. Here is the BP write-upon Gilmartin last year, when he was ranked #6 by Jason Parks I. The Braves' system:

6. Sean Gilmartin
Position: LHP
DOB: 05/08/1990
Height/Weight: 6’2’’ 190 lbs.
Bats/Throws: L/L
Drafted/Acquired: 1st round, 2011 draft, Florida State University (Tallahassee, FL)
2012 Stats: 3.54 ERA (119.1 IP, 111 H, 86 K, 26 BB) at Double-A Mississippi; 4.78 ERA (37.2 IP, 41 H, 25 K, 13 BB) at Triple-A Gwinnett
The Tools: 5 FB; 5 SL; 5+ CH


What Happened in 2012: True to form, Gilmartin made 27 starts, logged 157 innings, and forced weak contact at two levels in the upper minors.


Strengths: Pitchability; pedestrian fastball velocity, but can move pitch around and add/subtract; above average changeup is effective; keeps righties off fastball; has good sink and arm-side fade; slider flashes above average, works as average offering; good two-plane slice; above average command profile; makes it work.


Weaknesses: Lacks true plus pitch; relies on sequence and location; pitches to weak contact; not big bat misser; curveball is get-me-over/change-the-sight-line pitch; will pitch backwards off changeup.


Overall Future Potential: 5; no. 4 starter


Explanation of Risk: Low risk; mature arsenal; pitchability; already achieved Triple-A level.


Fantasy Future: Back-end innings chewer; league average at best; steady.


The Year Ahead: A crowded rotation could keep Gilmartin in Triple-A for a healthy chunk of the 2013 season, but an opening is only an injury away, and the 22-year-old southpaw has the makeup and arsenal to step up to the highest level and hold his own. The stuff is average to solid average, but he makes it work by moving the ball around and changing speeds, keeping hitters from sitting on his upper-80s/low 90s fastball. It’s not a sexy profile, but dependable innings eaters have a lot of value, and Gilmartin looks like a safe bet to live up to that prophecy.

#156 cmathewson

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Posted 18 December 2013 - 11:04 PM

Funny how this board was talking about DFAing Doumit yesterday and now the general tenor is that trading him for a former first-round pick was a bad move. Kubel would likely beat him out of the DH role. Fryer is a better defensive catcher. And Arcia and Parmelee are better options in right field. If they sign another catcher (which I expect), they would have needed to DFA him and eat his salary. Instead they traded him, dumped his entire salary on the Braves and acquired a player in an area of organizational weakness. I don't really see a downside.
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#157 notoriousgod71

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Posted 18 December 2013 - 11:54 PM

You have no idea if this is true or not. What we do know is he was recently highly regarded, the Braves handled him in a unusual manner, and the Twins have been interested in him for some time. I would be very surprised if we don't see Gilmartin at Target Field at some point in time.


I'd be surprised if we don't see him at Target Field as well... and that's what concerns me. The Twins have shown they are not opposed to running out complete crap game after game.

#158 jokin

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Posted 18 December 2013 - 11:59 PM

I'd be surprised if we don't see him at Target Field as well... and that's what concerns me. The Twins have shown they are not opposed to running out complete crap game after game.


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#159 Craig in MN

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Posted 19 December 2013 - 12:05 AM

I like this deal, but it really makes me wonder what the next deal is. TR has been saying that he has more work to do, and unloading Doumit doesn't sound like the end of that work...just a step along the way. Evan swapping Doumit for Kubel doesn't seem like an obvious improvement....just a step towards something else. The most obvious next move would be signing or trading for a catcher, but having Doumit shouldn't have stopped them from making a small-time catcher move, and a big catcher move would be a surprise at this point. The same goes for pitching...even if they wanted another starter, there's no reason they couldn't do that before trading Doumit.

Trading Doumit might have signaled a DH acquisition, but they just did that with Kubel, so that seems almost impossible. The next biggest upgrade location seems like shortstop. It's quite a stretch, but perhaps bringing in a recent first-round talent in Gilmartin might be enough in Ryan's mind to make up for giving up a second round pick to sign Drew. I don't see any other free agent move out there that fits as an upgrade for this team, but doesn't block anyone obvious. I just don't see what the next step is here....maybe a trade.

#160 Shane Wahl

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Posted 19 December 2013 - 12:18 AM

Funny how this board was talking about DFAing Doumit yesterday and now the general tenor is that trading him for a former first-round pick was a bad move. Kubel would likely beat him out of the DH role. Fryer is a better defensive catcher. And Arcia and Parmelee are better options in right field. If they sign another catcher (which I expect), they would have needed to DFA him and eat his salary. Instead they traded him, dumped his entire salary on the Braves and acquired a player in an area of organizational weakness. I don't really see a downside.


Yes, exactly. And this has to be known as a pretty solid Terry Ryan offseason so far. Other than Pelfrey, this has all been good.