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Parmelee Defense

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#1 Thrylos

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Posted 18 December 2013 - 11:22 AM

Parmelee was a nice defensive outfielder. Good Arm... He plays the RF wall better than anyone and he has surprising range.

He is multiple steps above Arcia... Doumit... Willingham and Colabello defensively.

To group or imply that Parmelee is a DH type (especially with his struggles at the plate) in consideration of his defense... is severe mis-casting.

Kinda of like putting Buddy Hackett in the lead of 50 shades of Grey.

As for Reynolds... I want competition for Plouffe... So OK... However... With the team strikeout totals in 2013. Adding Reynolds and his strikeout totals isn't my first choice.



Based on what?

Total Zone has Parmelee 5 runs below average in RF, his UZR/150 is -6.1 (21/28 RF >500 innings), and his Revized Zone Rating is .920 (16/28 RF >500 innings). In comparison Willingham is 22/26 LF > 500 innings in UZR/150 and 18/26 LF > 500 innings in UZR/150 in Revized Zone Rating.

Objectively Parmelee is to RF what Willingham is to LF relative to the league.

Subjectively, his range needs work, his routes need work. He has indeed improved from being awful as he will catch balls close to him. Few years ago he use to allow balls reach the wall past him in multiple occasions. But still he is not a good outfielder he went from awful to below average.
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#2 Riverbrian

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Posted 18 December 2013 - 11:57 AM

If defensive metrics are telling anybody that. They are flawed and worthless.

I watched him play RF... He threw at least 4 runners out at 2B playing the ball off the wall and throwing a perfect strike. He covered ground... He got good jumps on the ball. Me made 4 or 5 nice diving catches. He caught many balls that were not hit right at him.

Can you find better? Absolutely... You better be able to find better but Nobody who watched him play RF is going to say that Parm compares to Willingham in the OF.

I'm not saying he has a Ben Revere glove or Carlos Gomez range or a Bryce Harper hose.

I am saying that he is clearly multiple steps above Willingham... Doumit... Arcia and Colabello on defense. If the defensive metrics say differently. Put them down and don't look at them again until they fix it.

He can play RF for my team any day without worry. His bat is the problem.
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#3 amjgt

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Posted 18 December 2013 - 12:07 PM

Based on what?

Total Zone has Parmelee 5 runs below average in RF, his UZR/150 is -6.1 (21/28 RF >500 innings), and his Revized Zone Rating is .920 (16/28 RF >500 innings). In comparison Willingham is 22/26 LF > 500 innings in UZR/150 and 18/26 LF > 500 innings in UZR/150 in Revized Zone Rating.

Objectively Parmelee is to RF what Willingham is to LF relative to the league.


This is the best condemnation of those statistics I have ever seen.

#4 Thrylos

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Posted 18 December 2013 - 12:15 PM

This is the best condemnation of those statistics I have ever seen.


Based on?
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#5 cmathewson

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Posted 18 December 2013 - 12:16 PM

He plays the wall well and he has a good arm. Beyond that, his range is limited, which is typical for a big kid. He's a lot like Cuddyer, which is plenty good when you have a career OPS+ above 110, but not it is below 90.
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#6 Thrylos

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Posted 18 December 2013 - 12:17 PM

If defensive metrics are telling anybody that. They are flawed and worthless.

I watched him play RF... He threw at least 4 runners out at 2B playing the ball off the wall and throwing a perfect strike. He covered ground... He got good jumps on the ball. Me made 4 or 5 nice diving catches. He caught many balls that were not hit right at him.

Can you find better? Absolutely... You better be able to find better but Nobody who watched him play RF is going to say that Parm compares to Willingham in the OF.

I'm not saying he has a Ben Revere glove or Carlos Gomez range or a Bryce Harper hose.

I am saying that he is clearly multiple steps above Willingham... Doumit... Arcia and Colabello on defense. If the defensive metrics say differently. Put them down and don't look at them again until they fix it.

He can play RF for my team any day without worry. His bat is the problem.


I am glad that he can play for your team and day, I just don't want him to play for the Twins.

Half of the thing up there was metrics. (the objective part). The other half (the subjective part) is what I have seen from him the last 3-4 years I have seen him play (his range needs work, his routes need work) I guess we are watching different people... I have no issue with his arm or the way he plays the wall. I just want him to catch more balls before the hit that wall or the ground. (and the objective metrics agree with this assessment...)
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#7 Winston Smith

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Posted 18 December 2013 - 12:25 PM

Maybe I need new glasses but I didn't see anything last year that told me Parmalee was a good outfielder. He may be better than a bunch of other guys we have but none of them are close to playing good D! Maybe being less bad = good?
You have to put up some really decent hitting numbers when you play D like he does and he has yet to come close to that, imo.

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#8 Brock Beauchamp

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Posted 18 December 2013 - 12:27 PM

Parmelee has less than 90 MLB games played in the OF. Defensive metrics are basically useless at that point.

#9 stringer bell

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Posted 18 December 2013 - 12:28 PM

I agree with those that don't fault Parm's defense. He is slow, no doubt. As his offensive struggles continued, he was less sharp in right field, but he on balance was decent out there. Yes, much like Cuddy, if he hits, no one will notice the lack of range. Whatever the metrics, I see a big difference between Parmelee and the likes of Doumit and Willingham. The Kubel that played left and right for the Twins fits between Parmelee and Hammer/DevilEyes.

#10 Riverbrian

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Posted 18 December 2013 - 12:31 PM

I am glad that he can play for your team and day, I just don't want him to play for the Twins.

Half of the thing up there was metrics. (the objective part). The other half (the subjective part) is what I have seen from him the last 3-4 years I have seen him play (his range needs work, his routes need work) I guess we are watching different people... I have no issue with his arm or the way he plays the wall. I just want him to catch more balls before the hit that wall or the ground. (and the objective metrics agree with this assessment...)


We must be watching different people.

I admit I was worried about his OF D prior to 2013. That was erased quickly.

I still worry about Hammer, Arcia, Doumit and Colabello OF D. Those guys were letting balls drop. Parm... Not so much.

I did not watch Parm in Rochester and New Britain... Thyrlos... I assume you have and I always value your minor league opinion and that has been earned... You have that over me and I wouldn't dream of arguing any farm opinions... So if he was struggling there... I can't and won't refute it.

But I will say that very few watch as many Twins games as I do. If the 2013 Defensive Metrics objectively say that Parm is akin to Hammer... they are wrong and I can say that with 100% subjective confidence.

It's not really close. Parms bat is killing him. His D provided his value.
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#11 Willihammer

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Posted 18 December 2013 - 12:38 PM

Clete had a decent glove too, but I don't want either of their bats in the lineup again.

#12 amjgt

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Posted 18 December 2013 - 12:39 PM

The minus dWAR is whatever as are the raw numbers of UZR/150 - If the argument would have stopped there I would have thought those numbers were strangely low and moved on.

But the moment those numbers indicated Parmelee was the same (or worse) defender than Hammer.... that's when s**t got real. That's just not reality.

#13 Joe A. Preusser

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Posted 18 December 2013 - 12:40 PM

I have to agree with RB. I'm sure I didn't watch nearly as many games as you all did since I mostly listen on the radio, but the 20 or so times I did see him out in RF I was pretty happy with his overall play. Range isn't everything. I would rather have a savvy guy who plays the wall and corner well and who has an above average arm than a Revere type who gets to waaaay more balls but has to one-hop it to the cutoff man. IMO, Cuddy is a great comparison (both offensively and defensively) for Parm's ceiling.

#14 Joe A. Preusser

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Posted 18 December 2013 - 12:44 PM

Clete had a decent glove too, but I don't want either of their bats in the lineup again.


Definitely not a foregone conclusion that Parm's bat never catches up to MLB pitching. Might not be with us, but I wouldn't bet against him. Wouldn't be a tragedy to see him move on either, but he still has enough potential that I'd like to keep him around for a while.

#15 raindog

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Posted 18 December 2013 - 01:34 PM

If defensive metrics are telling anybody that. They are flawed and worthless.

Flawed does not equal worthless.

However, I agree with Brock that the sample size is not sufficient. And like you said, defensive metrics are flawed. Still a helpful tool.

In my eyes, he was surprisingly "not bad" in RF. But he still needs to be a plus player with a bat in his hands before he's useful.

#16 halfchest

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Posted 18 December 2013 - 01:41 PM

I won't ever try to pass myself off as a scout but I was surprised watching Parmelee on defense this year. He looked like he got decent jumps and made some big plays. Now given due to his lack of speed his "big plays" would probably be routine for a lot of guys but at least he made them. Kubel had some years like that too where he was kinda lumbering but he made up for it by being good at the diving catch and positioning himself well to limit extra base hits. Same with Cuddyer too. I'm not sold on Parmelee but I'd like to see him get one more extended look this season.

#17 nicksaviking

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Posted 18 December 2013 - 01:48 PM

Perhaps I'm alone, but I'm not expecting great defensive work from a RF and the range of such a player is even less of a concern to me. Has anyone seen Target Field? RF has next to no foul territory and you could parallel park one, maybe two, RV's between the wall and the infield dirt.

Also, I'm afraid to say that I think Buddy Hackett died several years back.

#18 ScrapTheNickname

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Posted 18 December 2013 - 02:32 PM

A dead buddy hackett playing right field? What's this?

#19 Riverbrian

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Posted 18 December 2013 - 02:44 PM

In case you missed it... Here are a few of the plays made by Parmelee last year.

You won't be able to find anything like these for Willingham.

http://wapc.mlb.com/...728181&c_id=mlb

http://wapc.mlb.com/...905397&c_id=mlb

http://wapc.mlb.com/...035847&c_id=mlb

http://wapc.mlb.com/...619743&c_id=mlb

http://wapc.mlb.com/...679351&c_id=mlb

http://wapc.mlb.com/...772291&c_id=mlb

He's not the fastest guy... I get that... There are better defensive OF options in Baseball. Willingham, Arcia, Doumit and Colabello are not part of that group of better defensive options.

Players get discussed and dismissed for many things. Parm doesn't deserve to be knocked for his defensive play in 2013. I'll stand up for him on that.

I'm a huge defensive guy. If someone isn't doing an above average job in the field... I'm gonna complain about it. Do you hear me Trevor Plouffe!!!

It's why Delmon Young could do nothing for me at the plate to make up for the nightmare he was in LF. It's why I'm willing to give Florimon another go at the SS position despite weak hitting numbers.

No complaints from me at all about Chris Parmelee on defense. Lumping him into a DH option is a serious miscast in the context of this team. In the context of the Twins... Parmelee as a DH is putting him in a role that he the worst at and removing him from a role that he is best at. That's a mistake!

At the plate... Yeah... We got major concerns after 600 MLB at bats. For Parmelee to stick at 1B or the Corner OF... His bat has to get going right now and show some pop in 2014.

Defensive Metrics... Flawed... Apparently. And if Flawed... The Worthiness is OK to be questioned in my mind. ;)

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#20 TheLeviathan

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Posted 18 December 2013 - 03:54 PM

Parmelee has less than 90 MLB games played in the OF. Defensive metrics are basically useless at that point.


I'm unconvinced they're useful after 900 games.

#21 Brock Beauchamp

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Posted 18 December 2013 - 03:59 PM

A fair point to make but they're definitely useless after only 90 games.

#22 Reider

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Posted 18 December 2013 - 05:26 PM

Parmelee isn't the fastest guy in the field, but he isn't afraid to get dirty and seems to have a fairly strong and accurate arm. I was definitely impressed with his ability to throw guys out from right field in 2013. If he could hit the way we want him to, his arm, accuracy, and his willingness to get dirty would make up for his lack of speed. But unfortunately he's just not hitting good enough.

#23 stringer bell

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Posted 18 December 2013 - 05:54 PM

Parmelee isn't the fastest guy in the field, but he isn't afraid to get dirty and seems to have a fairly strong and accurate arm. I was definitely impressed with his ability to throw guys out from right field in 2013. If he could hit the way we want him to, his arm, accuracy, and his willingness to get dirty would make up for his lack of speed. But unfortunately he's just not hitting good enough.

I appreciated Parmelee's efforts in right field. One question/thought: If he comes in about 20 lbs. lighter, would he be better, both in the field and at the plate? I now that he'll never be a fast runner and body types are body types, but Parmelee looked pretty dumpy in his uni.

#24 big dog

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Posted 18 December 2013 - 06:59 PM

I thought Parmelee was a nice surprise- sure, Revere would have jogged to balls that Parmelee dove for, but CP was better than serviceable out there. The D is only good enough if he's a real hitter, of course.

Thanks for the clips, RB. I have three impressions after watching them all.
1) Parmelee made some very nice catches.
2) Twins pitchers sure did give up some rockets.
3) I don't really care to know more about Bo Jackson and his energy requirements.

#25 Halsey Hall

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Posted 18 December 2013 - 07:18 PM

For a big guy lumbering around in right, Parmelee does a pretty good job. Nice arm. But, it's not worth it with his bat. He just can't catch up with fastballs. Now, with Arcia, I'd take it, as his bat is major league plus. I'd never want Parmelee in the field with Arcia on the bench, period.

#26 Reider

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Posted 18 December 2013 - 07:27 PM

I appreciated Parmelee's efforts in right field. One question/thought: If he comes in about 20 lbs. lighter, would he be better, both in the field and at the plate? I now that he'll never be a fast runner and body types are body types, but Parmelee looked pretty dumpy in his uni.

Parmelee will never be able to run like Mastroianni or Revere, but if he leans out (e.g. the way Morneau did) and trains properly, he might be slightly quicker. I can't see it improving his hitting.