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Article: Twins Looking for Another Pavano in Arroyo?

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#1 Nick Nelson

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Posted 10 December 2013 - 11:44 PM

You can view the page at http://www.twinsdail...avano-in-Arroyo

#2 Zephrin

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Posted 11 December 2013 - 12:46 AM

The (relatively) long-term commitments we've made to Nolasco (4) and Hughes (3) make me question the need to give a contract to any other rotation stabilizer that goes more than one year.

Frankly, Correa fills that role this year. At present, we have 2 spots available for 3 worthy candidates (Meyer, Gibson, Deduno), plus plenty of rotation filler (Diamond, Worley, Albers) if we run into trouble. Arroyo just adds to the glut of options we already have.

Unless we are willing to go after someone with significant upside (Tanaka!), we should either stick to a 1 year contract or stand pat.

#3 old nurse

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Posted 11 December 2013 - 03:15 AM

I would take from the kicking on Arroyo'ss tires that the Twins are not very confident in what they have available too them. Arroyo is probably holding out for a third year. I do not think anyone wants to give him it.

#4 zchrz

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Posted 11 December 2013 - 04:49 AM

I will be happy if they sign him, 3 years is not ideal but may be what it takes. Right now the rotation still has 2 of Deduno/ Worley/ Gibson/ Diamond in it and while there is some promise to pull a solid back of the rotation guy out of that group I don't think it would be wise to hand 2 spots over them and hope they succeed. Gibson can be stashed, one can get the 5th spot, and if we really have to hold onto one more they can be the long reliever. I don't see it as that negative a thing they lose some warm bodies at the top of the 5th starter pipeline. Gibson, Meyer, or whoever makes a real claim for a spot can displace whoever wins the 5th spot or Corriea.

#5 Don't Feed the Greed Guy

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Posted 11 December 2013 - 06:12 AM

Prediction: Arroyo will re-sign with Cincinnati. According to LEN3, the Reds are back at the bargaining table with their longtime starting right-hander. This is classic negotiation. Test the market, show the home team that you have willing suitors chirping on the wire, and then return to the nest.
http://www.startribu.../235335911.html
MLB Rumors has Mike Berardino tweeting (sorry, I don't tweet...) that the Twins want Arroyo for the top of their rotation, above Nolasco, and Hughes.
http://www.mlbtrader...B Trade Rumors)

So, basically the Twins came back and said something like 'Come to our nest, and we will give you the catbird seat.'

Money will feather the nest.

Ryan keeps hinting that the Twins have more money to spend, and that they aren't done in free agency. But I wonder... Many on this site are more than stunned by not one but TWO free agent signings. Three seems like such a huge stretch of "Twins Way" credulity that many can't imagine such extravagant spending.

Could it be true?

Nah, Arroyo is playing with the Reds. I'm willing to bet that he flies back home, to that nest we have come to know as the Great American Ballpark.

#6 josecordoba

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Posted 11 December 2013 - 06:17 AM

What convinces people that Bronson Arroyo will be at 37 years old in the American League? Steamer and Oliver project him to have a WAR of less then 1. I'll freely admit that there is something that I must be missing. Perhaps the Twins have scouted Arroyo to be better then the numbers look like in the case of Correia, I'm just not confident.

#7 diehardtwinsfan

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Posted 11 December 2013 - 06:48 AM

I really hope they pass on him. At this point, unless Beane really is trading Brett Anderson for a song, I'd be looking at trading some relievers or perhaps invesing in some SS help.

#8 SpitefulRabbit617

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Posted 11 December 2013 - 06:57 AM

If we're going to sign old people to play areas of need, lets sign Mike Lamb again to play 3rd. Heck, maybe Adam Everett can play SS sometime too......................................

#9 Badsmerf

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Posted 11 December 2013 - 07:18 AM

I would pass on him too. Also, I can't wait to write a blog about Deduno when I have some time this offseason. Not that anyone will read it or change their minds, but at least I'll feel better when people try to insinuate that he is a lock for a rotation spot.

#10 halfchest

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Posted 11 December 2013 - 09:14 AM

I really hope this rumor dies soon and he signs with someone else. We now have three midrotation arms in Nolasco, Hughes, and Corriea. All decent but none with considerable upside. If we sign anyone else it needs to be a top of the rotation type or no one at all. Would rather give some of our guys another shot.

#11 Brandon

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Posted 11 December 2013 - 09:15 AM

Deduno is slated for the 4th spot and he will probably start the season on the DL which opens a spot for Worely and Diamond to get a tryout. Yes the Twins have said Deduno will be ready to go by spring training but by the looks of things they want more insurance. Plus the signing would give the Twins the ability to trade Corriea in spring training or during the season should the opportunity arise.

#12 beckmt

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Posted 11 December 2013 - 09:20 AM

Not in on Arroyo, but not totally opposed either Do not think the Twins will land any of Garza, Tanaka, or Meada(who according to mlbtraderumors could also be posted this winter). Would rather leave room for rebound projects or buylow candidates and improve either the infield or the outfield for 1-2 years.

#13 Siehbiscuit

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Posted 11 December 2013 - 09:22 AM

Does having Arroyo on this team in 2014 and 2015 make the Twins better? Deduno and Gibson (and even Hughes) are NOT sure things. Arroyo has proven to be about as reliable as it gets. IMO, he would be the 2nd best pitcher on our staff (unless Hughes becomes much better). We are agruing about age and him "blocking" guys that have little to no track record and all of our AAAA filler. Arroyo is better than Correia. He is better than Dedno, Gibson, Diamond and Worley. I would like this deal to be only for two years, ideally. Gibson and Deduno can duke it out for the last spot in ST. Gibson still has options. Send him down if he can't be one of the 5 best to start the season. The Twins need to think about making this team better in both the short-term and the long-term. Signing Arroyo doesn't block anyone, because Correia is gone after this year. If Gibson, Deduno and Meyer look like All-Stars then we have a wonderful problem. Too many good pitchers.

#14 mike wants wins

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Posted 11 December 2013 - 09:44 AM

I'd rather have more upside than what Arroyo brings, but I can understand the case for signing him. I'd rather they find a good bat somehow, than a mediocre starting pitcher.
Lighten up Francis....

#15 TD Mac

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Posted 11 December 2013 - 10:07 AM

Hmmm, add a pitcher with a history of durability and quality results (who arguably would have been our staff ace the last few years)? Me thinks, yes.

Payroll dollars are still available and this would provide another upgrade to the WORST staff in baseball. Not only would I sign Arroyo, I'd also sign Pelfrey if I could (assuming I couldn't get Garza/Tanaka). Now we'd only have one spot to fill from our "embarrassment of riches" of Gibson/Worley/Diamond.

In a perfect world, those pitchers battle for the fifth spot, provide depth if/when injuries occur, and/or provide trade chips for other areas of need. Ultimately, if (fingers crossed), Meyer, May, Berrios, Stewart, etc., prove they're ready for a spot in the next year or two, then we look to move the veterans for more assets.

#16 nicksaviking

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Posted 11 December 2013 - 10:29 AM

Joel Sherman says it's looking like Arroyo will be getting a 3 year $36 million deal from whomever signs him. I think that 3rd year should make all Twins fans uneasy.

https://twitter.com/Joelsherman1

Also Jason Stark says Garza may be close to signing and the Diamondbacks and Twins are the teams being mentioned, though the Diamondbacks appear to be the front runner.

https://twitter.com/...801727227846656

#17 ericchri

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Posted 11 December 2013 - 10:30 AM

I'd rather have Arroyo than Pelfrey, all things considered. I'm pretty ambivalent to bringing him on at this point, though. I'd be perfectly willing to run with what we have so there's more opportunity for Gibson/May/Meyer to get the experience they need, but Arroyo also looks like a strong candidate to give you a solid league-average season with a lot of innings, and that would really be refreshing after the last few years.

#18 Trautmann13

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Posted 11 December 2013 - 10:59 AM

All I have to say is that I would love to see the Twins sign one more starter. It looks like it will either be a two year deal for Pelfrey or a three year deal with Arroyo. I would much rather have Arroyo than Pelfrey. Arroyo is old, yes we get it, but he has always been an inning eater which is what this team still needs.

Pelfrey was never good before TJ surgery and I don't think he will magically be good 2 years after. Arroyo is a good, but ageing, inning eater and Pelfrey is a below average, inconistant pitcher who throws less than 5 innings a start. Pass on Pelfrey, sign Arroyo

#19 josecordoba

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Posted 11 December 2013 - 12:29 PM

If Arroyo is worth $36 Million Dollars, this assumes 6 WAR over the next three years, and I don't like that bet.

#20 TRex

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Posted 11 December 2013 - 02:21 PM

If Arroyo is worth $36 Million Dollars, this assumes 6 WAR over the next three years, and I don't like that bet.


But don't forget that you are using 2013 WAR dollars, which will not be accurate for a 2016 contract... especially the way teams are spending this year!

#21 TwinsAce

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Posted 11 December 2013 - 03:17 PM

Arroyo put up similar numbers to Pavano in the AL East back when he was with the Red Sox. And his home park over the last 8 years is a bandshell. Arroyo isn't guaranteed to succeed, but more so than Pelfrey, Albers, Diamond, Correia, Hughes, and even Deduno and Gibson.
I would rather the Twins go after Garza, but if not, Arroyo is still worth it in the current pitching market.

You can never have enough pitching. Ideally, by the end of this year, there are pitchers in the minors pushing for spots, leading to a deadline trade or two.

Imagine that Nolasco and Arroyo put up close to sub-4.00 ERAs and 180+ innings. Hughes improves for the most part, while Correia starts off strong again before fadiing. Mays dominates AAA, along with Gibson, forcing the Twins hand to either demote their #5 pitcher or trade one of the other pitchers. Is that really a bad thing? And if they fail, you still have pitchers at AAA.

#22 AM.

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Posted 11 December 2013 - 04:03 PM

Arroyo compared to Garza:

H/9 - 9.2 vs 8.6
HR/9 - 1.2 vs 1.0
K/BB - 2.55 vs 2.37
WHIP - 1.28 vs 1.29
ERA - 3.84 vs 4.19
ERA+ 108 vs 104

Garza is definitely better, but the difference isn't as big as I would have guessed. Arroyo wouldn't be that terrible of a move, for a much cheaper deal. Arroyo has also cut down his walks every year for the past five.

#23 AM.

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Posted 11 December 2013 - 04:05 PM

Oops, I started reversing those halfway down. Fixed (career numbers)
Arroyo vs Garza

H/9 - 9.2 vs 8.6
HR/9 - 1.2 vs 1.0
K/BB - 2.37 vs 2.55
WHIP - 1.29 vs 1.28
ERA - 4.19 vs 3.84
ERA+ 104 vs 108


#24 minn55441

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Posted 11 December 2013 - 05:27 PM

I could be wrong, but I don't think the Twins are making a choice between Arroyo and Garza. If we can believe the rumors, the choice is between Arroyo and Pelfrey. I'm still undecided on the better option.

It sounds as if we have already offered Pelfrey a two year contract and we are using Arroyo as leverage or else there is a legitimate chance that if Pelfrey does turn down the current 2 year contract, they will offer something similar to Arroyo 2 or maybe three years.

What do you think? Who would you rather have Pelfrey for two or Arroyo for 3?

#25 sconnytwinsfan

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Posted 11 December 2013 - 05:34 PM

I think minn55441 is right about the Arroyo/Pelfrey choice. Honestly...I don't see a spot in the rotation for Pelfrey if they sign either Garza or Arroyo.

I was in the camp that I thought a two year deal for Arroyo from the start was a good idea. I think if he can be had for two years (with a club option and a $1M buyout for a third) that it's a great idea. The key is to get a deal that makes him a tradeable asset this year if two of Gibson, Deduno and Meyer start to click.

But if rumors are true, the Diamondbacks are hard core wanting Tanaka. If that's the case, the Garza thing could actually happen here. And if you can get Garza for $3m a year more than Arroyo, it seems like a no-brainer. I don't think any of the top of the rotation trade options are really options anymore.

#26 sconnytwinsfan

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Posted 11 December 2013 - 05:38 PM

Question: Why don't teams in financial situations like the Twins do $36M three year deals that front load higher dollars in the first year and make the third year less, to make the ability to trade the player more workable? For example, instead of $12M a year, pay the guy $14M this year, $14M next year and $8M the third year? If he's still a 180+ inning caliber starter, any number of teams would be interested in him as a 4th or 5th two years from now at that price. Is there something in the CBA that prevents that kind of front end loading of contracts?

That said...with Correia coming off the books at the end of 2014, Hughes in 2016 and Nolasco potentially in 2017....to me signing a 2 year innings eater makes sense as a place holder while our A & AA talent progress. You open up a slot a year and get money back every year to either replace that lost starter or to meet another need as team-controlled cheap pitchers fold into the rotation.

#27 tcarlic

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Posted 11 December 2013 - 06:00 PM

For example, instead of $12M a year, pay the guy $14M this year, $14M next year and $8M the third year?

That said...with Correia coming off the books at the end of 2014, Hughes in 2016 and Nolasco potentially in 2017....to me signing a 2 year innings eater makes sense as a place holder while our A & AA talent progress. You open up a slot a year and get money back every year to either replace that lost starter or to meet another need as team-controlled cheap pitchers fold into the rotation.


This is really smart. Why not just sign Garza and Arroyo?

#28 mako83

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Posted 11 December 2013 - 08:11 PM

I don't think arroyo is that interested in Minnesota. Where Garza is interested we can give him the years he wants. But I don't get why we don't give him 14-15 mil a year instead of 12 mil to arroyo. The pohlads are finally worried about putting people in seats. 4yrs 60 mil with a fifth year option

#29 Trevor0333

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Posted 11 December 2013 - 08:17 PM

I don't think arroyo is that interested in Minnesota. Where Garza is interested we can give him the years he wants. But I don't get why we don't give him 14-15 mil a year instead of 12 mil to arroyo. The pohlads are finally worried about putting people in seats. 4yrs 60 mil with a fifth year option


This is where I am at also, give me Garza at 4 guaranteed years over Arroyo for 3 any day.

#30 by jiminy

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Posted 13 December 2013 - 12:35 AM

Pavano turned out to be good for another couple years. How would a long term contract have worked out? Arroyo would require many more years than a Pavano comparison would justify.