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It's not delivery, its Deduno...

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#41 birdwatcher

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Posted 30 November 2013 - 01:39 PM

What I admire most about Deduno is the attitude he brings to the mound. This is clearly a man who loves to win and hates to lose. It would be nice to see the others pitch with this kind of fire.


Please provide objective, measurable evidence of this attitude.

Kidding. But I agree, he's fun to watch, partly because he's fiery. In contrast, Pelfry is not fun to watch. We don't need a bunch of statistics to see that, when he's on a roll, Deduno is a great #5 guy. So, give me Nolasco, Gibson, Hughes (or equivilent), and Correia in front of him and a Rochester rotation of capable (sort of) backup options like Diamond, Worley, Hendriks, Albers, Johnson, Meyer, May, Wimmers....

#42 stringer bell

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Posted 30 November 2013 - 02:49 PM

I am a bit fearful of a rather major downturn for Deduno, mostly as a result of the surgery this offseason. Both Worley and Diamond had "minor" surgery and weren't sharp when they returned to the mound. What made Deduno effective was outstanding movement on his pitches. I wonder if he might not lose just a little movement and become much more hittable. I don't think he'll ever have the sharp command that most of pitch to contact back end guys have when they are "on".

#43 Trevor0333

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Posted 30 November 2013 - 04:26 PM

Deduno is one of those rare players who defies conventional statistics.

He has always had so much sink & movement on his pitches his control has been terrible walking an extreme amount of batters. He made up for some of that with his out worldly ground ball rates from so much downward movement.

Last year he pitched to contact more which helped cut his walk rate in half. The WBC really helped his confidence too.

#44 Halsey Hall

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Posted 30 November 2013 - 04:33 PM

So, give me Nolasco, Gibson, Hughes (or equivilent), and Correia in front of him and a Rochester rotation of capable (sort of) backup options like Diamond, Worley, Hendriks, Albers, Johnson, Meyer, May, Wimmers....[/QUOTE]

Seems to me some posters here are getting way ahead of themselves giving Gibson a spot in the rotation. He's got plenty of competition, and I'd rate him a long shot.

#45 big dog

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Posted 30 November 2013 - 06:55 PM

What I admire most about Deduno is the attitude he brings to the mound. This is clearly a man who loves to win and hates to lose. It would be nice to see the others pitch with this kind of fire.


Agreed, and one of the things I like best about him is that he gets so excited when his teammates make a good play or a reliever bails him out. I think he's a guy who makes the people around him better. Sure, I'd love to have someone obviously better than him, but the tie goes to Deduno for me.

#46 DocBauer

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Posted 30 November 2013 - 07:25 PM

A really great and really fun post! And lots of well delivered thought and opinions to boot!

Some thoughts and opinions overall.

I think the argument could be made that Deduno indeed has early rotation "stuff" even if not as a #1. But as was pointed out in this thread, his walk rates always held him back previously. And there has always been a general lack of overall consistency that has held him back some. Probably because his stuff is just electric to be at the top of a rotation. A drop in K rate this year and drop in total velocity may have been 2-fold due to some lingering shoulder issues coming off the classic, but Anderson may have convinced him also that throwing a little softer, with great movement and better control was to his benefit. And that isn't rocket science, that is the art of pitching.

And along with that, can we begin to bury this "pitch to contact" bugaboo? Anderson himself has stated before that the term doesn't mean giving the hitter something to stroke, it's about being in and around the zone so you don't walk people. Movement on pitches in and around the strike zone is to get strikes, foul ball strikes, poorly hit balls, and grounders. Once again, we are talking about the art of pitching.

Neither Anderson or any previous pitching coach has taught or told his pitchers to serve up hitable strikes.

Deduno is fun to watch. Prior to his late season injury, he was not only the Twins best pitcher, he was just a good pitcher period. He would not be the first pitcher to either lose a little velocity, or learn to take something off the ball, to gain better control and achieve better results.

Healthy, and what he has learned, he is at worst a very capable and occasionally very good pitcher at the #5 spot. And if what we saw this year wasn't a mirage, I could see him as more than that for sure. I just think consistency would hold him back from being a top of the rotation arm. Hey, I'd love for him to prove me wrong! I completely agree he could push Correia down the chain to #4. How great would that be?

#47 DocBauer

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Posted 30 November 2013 - 07:35 PM

As a side note, since he has been brought up here, Gibson has a lot to prove. But I am in no way down on the young man! He was a very talented fast riser who fell to injury. By all accounts, he returned healthy and strong with velocity as good as before the injury. In fact, I'd say looking at what he did at AAA last season, especially after the first month or so when he found greater feel and consistency, was pretty outstanding and fills me with great hope. We all know it takes time for any successful TJ surgery patient to find his comfort level and groove.

Nolasco, Hughes or whoever, Deduno-Correia, and Gibson brought along a little more slowly as the #5 wouldn't be a bad thing. It would still be the best rotation in years. And if Gibson would need a little time in AAA just to keep on a regular schedule to begin the year, I don't know that any of us should be disappointed.

#48 Thrylos

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Posted 30 November 2013 - 07:59 PM

a Rochester rotation of capable (sort of) backup options like Diamond, Worley, Hendriks, Albers, Johnson, Meyer, May, Wimmers....


So you really think that Diamond and Worley will pass through waivers etc to pitch at Rochester? They are out of options.

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#49 IdahoPilgrim

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Posted 30 November 2013 - 08:56 PM

I'm not going to get all into stats because that's not my thing (not opposed to it, just don't spend that much time with it), but from what I remember of last season, up to the point where his arm started going, he usually gave the Twins a chance to win when he took the mound. He kept the game close. Not front of the rotation, to be sure, but still worthy of being in the rotation.

Assuming we don't pick up 3 more starters in FA/trade, Deduno starts ST with the assumption he'll be in the rotation come April. Whether he retains that through ST or somebody (Gibson, Worley, etc) takes it from him is unknown, but the spot is currently his, IMO.

#50 howeda7

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Posted 30 November 2013 - 11:54 PM

Yes, his ERA was below 3.5 until toward the end of the season when the injury was becoming more problematic. I just don't get how little credit he gets. He was the only SP I was excited to watch last year. I wached Gibson hoping to see him emerge but that did not go so well. Deduno was the most entertaining for me.


This. He gave us a legit chance to win most starts, which was a huge feat in that rotation. He also came through in some big spots (ending a the horrific losing streak at Yankee Stadium for example)

#51 whydidnt

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Posted 01 December 2013 - 10:46 AM

I'm not disputing that Deduno gave the Twins a chance to win last year, at all. What is still up for debate is whether that run he had last year is sustainable. I'm all for giving him a shot and hoping he's the exception and his movement is "that good" and it makes up for the low K/9 high BB/9 rate. However the excitement about a 30 year old with 1/2 a good season is a bit much. As i said in the previous post, the excitement is similar to what we saw about Diamond last year...and you could probably add guys like Blackburn in previous years.

He may be the exception, but there just isn't enough in his background to count on him as locked in starter in 2014.

And I'm willing to put the "pitch to contact" stuff to rest as soon as we see guys that start performing better the longer they are here, and when I start seeing guys k/9 rates go up instead of down while they are here. We just don't have a track record of developing starting pitchers in this organization. I'll let the results prove my point over the guy who's butt is on the line's statement about controlling the strike zone, etc...

#52 OldTwinky

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Posted 01 December 2013 - 11:15 AM

I like Deduno. I don't think this shoulder problem is done though. I suspect he'll spend a lot of time on the DL this year.

#53 Reider

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Posted 02 December 2013 - 04:04 PM

I like Deduno. I don't think this shoulder problem is done though. I suspect he'll spend a lot of time on the DL this year.

If that is the case, do you think the Twins should sign one more starting pitcher?

#54 Badsmerf

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Posted 02 December 2013 - 06:33 PM

Wow. I don't post for a month and all the sudden everyone thinks Deduno is a real MLB pitcher? Some projecting him to be one of the best in the rotation for 2014? I just might completely stop posting until spring.
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#55 Trevor0333

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Posted 19 March 2014 - 09:44 AM

Wow. I don't post for a month and all the sudden everyone thinks Deduno is a real MLB pitcher? Some projecting him to be one of the best in the rotation for 2014? I just might completely stop posting until spring.



I still stand by my statement that Deduno will be the best starting pitcher on the staff this year.

#56 cmathewson

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Posted 19 March 2014 - 10:06 AM

As long as he is healthy, he should be in the rotation. If he gets hurt again, give someone else a chance. If he stays healthy and Gibson or someone else is dominating in AAA, make room for him by trading someone else. Looking at you, Correia.
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#57 tobi0040

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Posted 19 March 2014 - 10:18 AM

It is true that his k/9 rate went down but until late in the year he produced a lot of very weakly hit GBs. However, it did not translate in terms of BABIP. That might be somewhat a product of his problems later in the season. His BABIP ended up the same as Liriano and Garza.

K/9 BB/9 HR/9 BABIP LOB GB% HR/FB ERA
Garza --- 7.88 2.43 1.16 .290 73.4% 38.6% 11.6% 3.82
Liriano --- 9.11 3.52 0.50 .290 77.6% 50.5% 8.3 % 3.02
Deduno -- 5.58 3.42 0.58 .291 73.7% 59.7 % 10.3 % 3.83

He had a good k/9 rate in AAA with the Twins. Now that he has some big league experience, it would not be unreasonable to believe he could increase that K/9 rate a little and tighten up the walk rate.


I would go a step farther than the posts on here. His 4.44 ERA over 79 IP in 2012 was also above replacement player. I believe replacement player is definted as a AA replacement. I have a hard time believing the average AA replacement can come up here and average a quality start.

True, his K rate is average at best. But 18 HR in 193 IP (.83/9) suggests hitters have a tough time squaring him up due to the movement of his pitches. That may be why everyone thinks he is ripe for regression due to a low opposing BABIP.

#58 longstrangetrip

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Posted 19 March 2014 - 10:20 AM

I'm a huge Deduno supporter and hope that he can hold off Diamond for the 5th spot. His results this spring and last season have clearly been better than Scott's, but Diamond wins if Gardy/Anderson decide they need a lefty in the rotation.

I had the pleasure of seeing Sam live last season at the Big A, and I have never seen so many weak rollers back to the mound. Or so many hitters walking back to the dugout shaking their heads. The funky late movement on his ball makes it almost impossible to square up against him when he is on.

Deduno is unusual among major league pitchers. Most pitchers live on the corners, and their catchers usually set up on the outside or inside corner. This approach didn't work with Sammy, and resulted in way too many walks. I have noticed that his catcher now generally sets up right down the middle, and allows the inherent movement to wreak its havoc. This has resulted in a reduced K rate, but also a reduced BB rate, and much improved results.

I don't find it preposterous to say Deduno could be our most effective starter this year

#59 tobi0040

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Posted 19 March 2014 - 10:30 AM

I'm a huge Deduno supporter and hope that he can hold off Diamond for the 5th spot. His results this spring and last season have clearly been better than Scott's, but Diamond wins if Gardy/Anderson decide they need a lefty in the rotation.

I had the pleasure of seeing Sam live last season at the Big A, and I have never seen so many weak rollers back to the mound. Or so many hitters walking back to the dugout shaking their heads. The funky late movement on his ball makes it almost impossible to square up against him when he is on.

Deduno is unusual among major league pitchers. Most pitchers live on the corners, and their catchers usually set up on the outside or inside corner. This approach didn't work with Sammy, and resulted in way too many walks. I have noticed that his catcher now generally sets up right down the middle, and allows the inherent movement to wreak its havoc. This has resulted in a reduced K rate, but also a reduced BB rate, and much improved results.

I don't find it preposterous to say Deduno could be our most effective starter this year


The logic of we need a lefty is silly. The decision should come down to, during the innings allocated to Diamond or Deduno, who will pitch better? That answer is clear.

#60 ashburyjohn

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Posted 19 March 2014 - 11:13 AM

The logic of we need a lefty is silly. The decision should come down to, during the innings allocated to Diamond or Deduno, who will pitch better? That answer is clear.


It's the old saying. "We don't need lefty pitchers. We need pitchers that can get the lefties out."