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2014 HoF ballot

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#21 Willihammer

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Posted 26 November 2013 - 10:04 PM

I watched Thomas tee off on Twins pitching all through the 90s and 00s and agree - he was a 1 man wrecking crew. But I'm still waiting for a reason why he should be voted in before any of these other 1Bs and DHs.

#22 DaveW

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Posted 26 November 2013 - 10:45 PM

Jeff Bagwell- Yes, No Brainer.
Craig Biggio- Yes, No Brainer.
Barry Bonds- Yes, No Brainer
Roger Clemens- Yes, No brainer.
Tom Glavine Yes, No brainer.
Jeff Kent No
Greg Maddux- Yes no brainer.
Edgar Martinez One of my favorite players ever, Yes. .933 OPS very underated
Don Mattingly- No
Fred McGriff- No
Mark McGwire- No
Jack Morris- No :(
Mike Mussina- No
Rafael Palmeiro- No
Mike Piazza- Yes
Tim Raines- No
Curt Schilling- No
Lee Smith- No
Sammy Sosa- No way
Frank Thomas- Yes, No Brainer.
Alan Trammell- No
Larry Walker- Yes

#23 DaveW

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Posted 26 November 2013 - 10:47 PM

I watched Thomas tee off on Twins pitching all through the 90s and 00s and agree - he was a 1 man wrecking crew. But I'm still waiting for a reason why he should be voted in before any of these other 1Bs and DHs.


.974 career OPS good for 14th all time, right behind Stan the Man, Joe Dimaggio and the Mick. Right ahead of Miggy.
If you take off his age 37+ seasons, he had a .996 OPS over 15 seasons....that is insane. Also 500+ HR etc etc

#24 Willihammer

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Posted 26 November 2013 - 11:07 PM

.974 career OPS good for 14th all time, right behind Stan the Man, Joe Dimaggio and the Mick. Right ahead of Miggy.
If you take off his age 37+ seasons, he had a .996 OPS over 15 seasons....that is insane. Also 500+ HR etc etc

Again I don't see how, based on this, you would vote Thomas but not McGwire or Bagwell.

edit: I see you do have Bagwell up there. McGwire then. How does he not make the cut?

Edited by Willihammer, 26 November 2013 - 11:12 PM.


#25 Pius Jefferson

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Posted 26 November 2013 - 11:13 PM

Maddux, Glavine, Thomas, Raines, Biggio, Bagwell, Piazza, Mussina

#26 DaveW

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Posted 27 November 2013 - 12:28 AM

Again I don't see how, based on this, you would vote Thomas but not McGwire or Bagwell.

edit: I see you do have Bagwell up there. McGwire then. How does he not make the cut?


Personal preference, McGwire was merely good not great until the roids kicked in towards his end in Oakland. Also he is an admidted cheat after he stood in front of the American people/Congress and lied to everyone's faces (ala Sosa and Palmerio as well)

At least Clemens and Bonds never did that, additionally Bonds and Clemens are just in such a different level of greatness period. Bonds is maybe the best hitter of all time and had plenty of other value as well, and Clemens is the best pitcher of all time. Big Mac though great was pretty one dimensional (the long ball)

As far as other suspected "roid users" i don't really care, I never saw proof for Piazza/Bagwell etc.

#27 biggentleben

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Posted 27 November 2013 - 08:22 AM

eventually I would vote for Glavine, Thomas and Walker but not yet.


I will never understand this thinking. A guy is a hall of famer, or he's not. This determining which ballot to choose crap is complete BS. I truly think any writer who states such a comment should permanently lose his HOF vote and possibly his BBWAA membership.

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#28 biggentleben

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Posted 27 November 2013 - 08:39 AM

Personal preference, McGwire was merely good not great until the roids kicked in towards his end in Oakland.


McGwire hit 156 home runs with a 142 OPS+ in his first 4 full seasons in the league, along with a few as a September call-up. Who knows for sure when the roids started in Oakland, but he really was very good right away when he hit the majors, then got hurt for about 3 seasons right in the midst of his "prime years" before exploding back onto the scene in 1995. Yes, his final seasons are in question, but his numbers were above and beyond others in the league using many of the same substances at the time, and while tarnished, the home run chase of 1998 really brought baseball back from the horrid press it was still receiving over the 1994 strike. Yes, he's a cheater, yes, he's admitted to roids, but to say he wasn't one of the great power hitters in the league immediately upon arrival is untrue.

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#29 nicksaviking

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Posted 27 November 2013 - 09:01 AM

Maddox, Biggio, Glavine, Thomas, Morris and Raines.

Some say intentionally not letting guys in on the first ballot is stupid. Well it's tradition to only induct the elite or the guys who hit milestones on the first ballot. If Harmon Killebrew and Joe DiMaggio can't get in on his first try I'm not going to cry for anyone else.

Sorry, steroid suspsects aren't getting in, give it up. I'll it takes is one in four voters to say no and currently it's more like three in four voters. Those cheats knew what kind of stain they would leave on their reputation if caught, I'm not sure why some think they don't have to face the obvious consequences now. And those that were suspected but there may not be much proof? Well that's tough, this looks like it will be your punishment for keeping silent.

#30 nicksaviking

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Posted 27 November 2013 - 09:04 AM

I will never understand this thinking. A guy is a hall of famer, or he's not. This determining which ballot to choose crap is complete BS. I truly think any writer who states such a comment should permanently lose his HOF vote and possibly his BBWAA membership.


Why, because Glavine was a Brave? It's an honor to be inducted on the first ballot, why does everyone have to get in that way? Why wouldn't the ballot be one and done for every player then? I'd vote Glavine in first ballot, but I don't think not doing so is nearly as grevious as you suggest.

Edited by nicksaviking, 27 November 2013 - 09:07 AM.


#31 2wins87

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Posted 27 November 2013 - 09:16 AM

Arbitrary. I think that the Hall of Fame should be exclusive. There are 76 players with career WAR > 75. This seems like a good number. Drop it down to 65 and it doubles to 134. 60 you got 177. 55, 227. 50, 295. And you have HOFers with WARs in the 20s like Freddie Lindstrom and Ray Schalk (and his career .656 OPS and 83 OPS+). Travesty.

Just looking for an objective criterium that is better that the "because I feel this way" that happens today. And I believe that the Hall of Fame should be very exclusive and only for the few very best.

Johnny Bench is in with 75.2, Paul Molitor too. ;) The WAR rankings are here.


I understand the sentiment that in many cases the Hall is not nearly exclusive enough. But you are arguing for a Hall of Players-Better-than-an-Arbitrary-Threshold-in-Value-as-Determined-by-a-Very-Good-Yet-Still-Imperfect-Measure-of-Value. And this has already been done with more rigor. I think WAR is a good starting place, and don't get me wrong, your method is better than what the writers have actually done in the past and are doing now, but you definitely have to consider the entire story of a player's career, not just their WAR.

And my biggest problem with your cutoff is that its the same for catchers and everyone else. You can't honestly believe that Johnny Bench is the only catcher ever who deserves to be in the HOF.

Anyway my ballot would be:
Maddux
Clemens
Schilling
Mussina
Glavine
Bonds
Bagwell
Piazza
Thomas
Biggio

There are a few more on the ballot that are deserving, but those are my first ten. I think the backlog is going to get a lot worse in the next few years as lots of deserving players split the votes of some writers, while others refuse to vote for anyone ever associated with steroids. I would not be surprised if the Hall made some changes to the selection process within the next 5 years.

Edited by 2wins87, 27 November 2013 - 09:21 AM.
formatting


#32 Boom Boom

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Posted 27 November 2013 - 09:28 AM

Maddux, Glavine, Biggio, Thomas, Piazza, and Bagwell all should go in IMO. Bonds and Clemens should be shoe-ins but for the PED thing, so we'll see where that goes.

#33 DAM DC Twins Fans

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Posted 27 November 2013 - 09:35 AM

I will never understand this thinking. A guy is a hall of famer, or he's not. This determining which ballot to choose crap is complete BS. I truly think any writer who states such a comment should permanently lose his HOF vote and possibly his BBWAA membership.


I am an older guy (a grandpa actually) and a traditionalist. I firmly believe that first ballot election to HOF is special and should be reserved for the truly elite like Mays, Musial, Aaron etc. This year that is Greg Maddox--arguably the best pitcher of the past 30 years.

I also believe that steroids shouldn't disqualify the truly elite (Bonds and Clemons) who were so far above the rest. I know I am in the minority here.

My ballot--Maddox, Clemons, Bonds, Biggio, and Morris (hard choice but most wins in the 90s). That's it. Next year add the Big Hurt and Glavine.

As Thyrlos says--it is the HOF of the very good not the mediocre.

#34 Thrylos

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Posted 27 November 2013 - 11:08 AM

And my biggest problem with your cutoff is that its the same for catchers and everyone else. You can't honestly believe that Johnny Bench is the only catcher ever who deserves to be in the HOF..


But WAR does indeed have a strong positional component that really favors Catchers, so it is taken into account. I have no issues with the Hall having commemorations of moments (like every no-hitter and perfect game and triple play) and lists of the 10 best on each position or whatever and commemorations of great games (like Morris' game 7). And it does. Maybe it should extend it more. But it does not need to induct all those mediocre to very good players to do this.
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#35 steve

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Posted 27 November 2013 - 11:24 AM

It's a Hall of Fame, not a Hall of WAR. Entry shouldn't be governed by any one statistic, especially such a new, synthetic one that different people calculate in different ways.

Those who have distorted the record book by using PEDs get to keep the records, and the money, but that's all.

#36 Seth Stohs

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Posted 27 November 2013 - 12:08 PM

It's a Hall of Fame, not a Hall of WAR.


100% agree!

#37 Seth Stohs

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Posted 27 November 2013 - 12:14 PM

I looked at the list of candidates and found that I would somehow vote for 14 players. I don't know how I would get it down to ten, and there were actually 2-3 others that I think are very worthy.

The No-Brainers for me: Maddux, Bonds, Clemens, Glavine, Piazza, Biggio, McGwire, Kent, Thomas,
Also would vote for: Sammy Sosa, Rafael Palmiero, Jeff Bagwell, Tim Raines, Fred McGriff.
Then I believe that these guys are also Hall of Fame caliber, but a notch below the above: Curt Schilling, Mike Mussina,

Tough ballot!

#38 Willihammer

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Posted 27 November 2013 - 12:19 PM

I'll concede that a Hall of Fame with a Jack Morris 10 inning world series game 7 shutout display and a Mark McGwire-Sammy Sosa HR chase display could be a heck of a lot more interesting than one with say, Rafael Palmeiro... hitting a HR in another hopeless TX playoff loss.

edit: Out of curiosity, has anyone actually visited the Hall? I have not.

#39 ericchri

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Posted 27 November 2013 - 12:30 PM

Jeff Bagwell
Craig Biggio
Barry Bonds
Roger Clemens
Tom Glavine
Greg Maddux
Edgar Martinez
Mike Piazza
Tim Raines
Frank Thomas


I could easily vote for 15 or so of these. It will be interesting to see how many make it in this year. Hopefully it's at least 3 or 4, cause the ballot is getting really crowded.

#40 Jim Crikket

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Posted 27 November 2013 - 01:52 PM

I will never understand this thinking. A guy is a hall of famer, or he's not. This determining which ballot to choose crap is complete BS. I truly think any writer who states such a comment should permanently lose his HOF vote and possibly his BBWAA membership.


While I tend to agree that "a guy is a hall of famer or he's not," I'm not quite as adamant as you seem to be.

I think we will need to show increasing tolerance this year and perhaps for many years to come, simply because of the size of the ballot starting this year. A quick look at the ballot and I've got at least 15 players that I could support. But if I can only vote for 10, then there WILL be worthy players I have to leave off my ballot this year. Based on your philosophy, I could never vote for them in the future when there may be room on my 10-spot ballot? I don't agree with that at all.

I will also say that I strongly disagree with using any one single criteria for determining who should be immortalized. It's the Hall of FAME and fame is subjective by nature.

As for not voting for PED users, I'm not sure any of us should be holding ourselves out as the morality police. I know I shouldn't. I also believe the BBWAA has no business considering themselves the "cheating police." Isn't Mitch Albom still a member of the BBWAA? If so, that says all we need to know about the BBWAA's own tolerance of "cheating."
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