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2014 HoF ballot

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#1 Willihammer

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Posted 26 November 2013 - 05:44 PM

You're a senior BBWAA writer, you get 10 votes. How does your ballot look?

The candidates:

Jeff Bagwell
Craig Biggio
Barry Bonds
Roger Clemens
Tom Glavine
Jeff Kent
Greg Maddux
Edgar Martinez
Don Mattingly
Fred McGriff
Mark McGwire
Jack Morris
Mike Mussina
Rafael Palmeiro
Mike Piazza
Tim Raines
Curt Schilling
Lee Smith
Sammy Sosa
Frank Thomas
Alan Trammell
Larry Walker

http://www.mlb.com/n...lb&ymd=20131124

#2 Thrylos

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Posted 26 November 2013 - 06:15 PM

Bonds, Clemens, Maddux, Mussina, Glavine, Schiling, Bagwell. I do not believe in the Hall of Very Good or Mediocre. 75 career WAR is my cut off.
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#3 Bark's Lounge

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Posted 26 November 2013 - 06:20 PM

I love these kind of threads.

1. Maddux
2. Big Hurt
3. Glavine
4. Piazza
5. Biggio
6. Morris (St. Paul Native loyalty vote)

Notes:

(a) I feel bad leaving a few guys off my ballot, and maybe I will change my mind at some point. Sorry - Rock, Crime-Dog, Bags, Moose and Mr. Kent.

(B) I have not damaged my brain enough to forget about the steroid era as of yet. Give me a few more years.

There he goes. One of God's own prototypes. Some kind of high powered mutant never even considered for mass production. Too weird to live, and too rare to die.


#4 Rosterman

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Posted 26 November 2013 - 06:23 PM

Maddox, Glavine, Piazza, Schilling, Smith, Thomas, Morris, Biggio, Bagwell, Martinez. Except it to be totally The Year of The Pitcher!
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#5 Brock Beauchamp

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Posted 26 November 2013 - 07:01 PM

Bonds, Clemens, Maddux, Mussina, Glavine, Schiling, Bagwell. I do not believe in the Hall of Very Good or Mediocre. 75 career WAR is my cut off.


Frank Thomas compiled a WAR of 73 as a DH. Best right-handed hitter of the generation. Power, average, discipline. He should be a no-brainer first ballot pick.

#6 Thrylos

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Posted 26 November 2013 - 07:20 PM

Frank Thomas compiled a WAR of 73 as a DH. Best right-handed hitter of the generation. Power, average, discipline. He should be a no-brainer first ballot pick.


I got him at 73.64 and Larry Walker at 72.63. Bagwell (another RH hitter is at 79.48). Being a DH hurts Thomas. He is borderline, but if you put Thomas in, you got to put Walker...

Not that there are not worse players than Thomas who are in. There are. But I prefaced my thing with a. I do not believe in the Hall of Very Good and b. 75 WAR is my cut off.

Edited by Thrylos, 26 November 2013 - 07:26 PM.

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#7 Willihammer

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Posted 26 November 2013 - 07:23 PM

Frank Thomas compiled a WAR of 73 as a DH. Best right-handed hitter of the generation. Power, average, discipline. He should be a no-brainer first ballot pick.

What about Palmeiro and Martinez, would they get your vote too?

McGwire? Sammy Souser?

#8 Brad Swanson

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Posted 26 November 2013 - 07:49 PM

I got him at 73.64 and Larry Walker at 72.63. Bagwell (another RH hitter is at 79.48). Being a DH hurts Thomas. He is borderline, but if you put Thomas in, you got to put Walker...

Not that there are not worse players than Thomas who are in. There are. But I prefaced my thing with a. I do not believe in the Hall of Very Good and b. 75 WAR is my cut off.


Just curious, why 75? That means no Reggie Jackson, Johnny Bench, Carlton Fisk, Rod Carew, Paul Molitor, Harmon Killebrew, Kirby Puckett, Tony Gwynn, Ozzie Smith...

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#9 Thrylos

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Posted 26 November 2013 - 08:15 PM

Just curious, why 75? That means no Reggie Jackson, Johnny Bench, Carlton Fisk, Rod Carew, Paul Molitor, Harmon Killebrew, Kirby Puckett, Tony Gwynn, Ozzie Smith...


Arbitrary. I think that the Hall of Fame should be exclusive. There are 76 players with career WAR > 75. This seems like a good number. Drop it down to 65 and it doubles to 134. 60 you got 177. 55, 227. 50, 295. And you have HOFers with WARs in the 20s like Freddie Lindstrom and Ray Schalk (and his career .656 OPS and 83 OPS+). Travesty.

Just looking for an objective criterium that is better that the "because I feel this way" that happens today. And I believe that the Hall of Fame should be very exclusive and only for the few very best.

Johnny Bench is in with 75.2, Paul Molitor too. ;)
The WAR rankings are here.

Edited by Thrylos, 26 November 2013 - 08:22 PM.

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#10 biggentleben

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Posted 26 November 2013 - 08:19 PM

I'm going to put mine in order:
1. Maddux
2. Bonds
3. Clemens
4. Thomas
5. Bagwell
6. Piazza
7. Biggio
8. Glavine
9. McGwire
10. Sosa

Right now I just cannot see how you don't fill out a full ballot. I had a number of guys like Raines, Schilling, Edgar, and McGriff that I left off that should be in there as well.
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#11 SydneyTwinsFan

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Posted 26 November 2013 - 08:23 PM

Bonds, Clemens, Maddux, Thomas, Glavine, Bagwell, Piazza, Biggio, Raines

Steroid-era holdovers are going to make this a very crowded ballot in years to come, if it's not already

#12 Brad Swanson

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Posted 26 November 2013 - 08:28 PM

Arbitrary. I think that the Hall of Fame should be exclusive. There are 76 players with career WAR > 75. This seems like a good number. Drop it down to 65 and it doubles to 134. 60 you got 177. 55, 227. 50, 295. And you have HOFers with WARs in the 20s like Freddie Lindstrom and Ray Schalk (and his career .656 OPS and 83 OPS+). Travesty.

Just looking for an objective criterium that is better that the "because I feel this way" that happens today. And I believe that the Hall of Fame should be very exclusive and only for the few very best.

Johnny Bench is in with 75.2, Paul Molitor too. ;)
The WAR rankings are here.


Ah, understood. I used Fangraphs' WAR. Only 66 in their HOF.

Since I'm questioning others, here is my ballot:

[COLOR=#333333]• [/COLOR]Jeff Bagwell
[COLOR=#333333]• [/COLOR]Barry Bonds
[COLOR=#333333]• [/COLOR]Roger Clemens
[COLOR=#333333]• [/COLOR]Tom Glavine
[COLOR=#333333]• [/COLOR]Greg Maddux
[COLOR=#333333]• [/COLOR]Mike Piazza
[COLOR=#333333]• [/COLOR]Tim Raines
[COLOR=#333333]• [/COLOR]Curt Schilling
[COLOR=#333333]• [/COLOR]Frank Thomas
[COLOR=#333333]• [/COLOR]Larry Walker

Some very tough omissions too: Biggio, Trammell, Edgar, Mussina. It's insane that Kenny Lofton isn't on the ballot anymore.

Edited by Brad Swanson, 26 November 2013 - 08:31 PM.

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#13 Thor

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Posted 26 November 2013 - 09:33 PM

Biggio
Maddux
Morris
Piazza
Raines
eventually I would vote for Glavine, Thomas and Walker but not yet.

#14 Willihammer

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Posted 26 November 2013 - 09:42 PM

With only 10 votes, I would start with positions 1-2, and 4-9. I can't pick from this crop of 1Bs and DHs and defend my choices, they are all too close IMO.

Maddux
Glavine
Clemens
Schilling
Mussina
Kent
Piazza
Bonds
Raines
Trammell

#15 Bark's Lounge

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Posted 26 November 2013 - 09:43 PM

This is not meant to chap anyone's hide, but if you did not see Frank Thomas play in his prime... I do not think you should have an opinion or leg to stand on his induction to the HoF.

Seeing is believing... and I certainly believe, DH or not.

There he goes. One of God's own prototypes. Some kind of high powered mutant never even considered for mass production. Too weird to live, and too rare to die.


#16 notoriousgod71

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Posted 26 November 2013 - 09:43 PM

1. Biggio
2. Bonds
3. Clemens
4. Glavine
5. Maddux
6. Martinez
7. Piazza
8. Schilling
9. Thomas

#17 stringer bell

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Posted 26 November 2013 - 09:43 PM

Maddux, Glavine, Biggio, Bagwell, Raines, Piazza and Thomas.

#18 notoriousgod71

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Posted 26 November 2013 - 09:44 PM

This is not meant to chap anyone's hide, but if you did not see Frank Thomas play in his prime... I do not think you should have an opinion or leg to stand on his induction to the HoF.

Seeing is believing... and I certainly believe, DH or not.


Agreed. Thomas was basically Cabrera.

#19 Bark's Lounge

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Posted 26 November 2013 - 09:46 PM

Also... The only players I see as shoe-ins are Greg Maddux and the Big Hurt.

There he goes. One of God's own prototypes. Some kind of high powered mutant never even considered for mass production. Too weird to live, and too rare to die.


#20 kab21

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Posted 26 November 2013 - 09:55 PM

WAR is really silly to use as a conclusive stat for something like this.

I will break the ballot into 3 tiers for voting purposes

no doubters
Maddux and THE BIG HURT

steroids users - a lot of these should be no doubters but won't get voted in and will stay on the ballot every year. This kind of screws up the ballot for those that would vote for steroid users. They end up with 10 guys on their ballot.

borderline candidates - some of these guys I really like (Bagwell and Glavine) and are borderline no doubters while there are A LOT OF guys that a very good argument could be made for. I have always like Trammell for the HOF.

#21 Willihammer

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Posted 26 November 2013 - 10:04 PM

I watched Thomas tee off on Twins pitching all through the 90s and 00s and agree - he was a 1 man wrecking crew. But I'm still waiting for a reason why he should be voted in before any of these other 1Bs and DHs.

#22 SpiritofVodkaDave

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Posted 26 November 2013 - 10:45 PM

Jeff Bagwell- Yes, No Brainer.
Craig Biggio- Yes, No Brainer.
Barry Bonds- Yes, No Brainer
Roger Clemens- Yes, No brainer.
Tom Glavine Yes, No brainer.
Jeff Kent No
Greg Maddux- Yes no brainer.
Edgar Martinez One of my favorite players ever, Yes. .933 OPS very underated
Don Mattingly- No
Fred McGriff- No
Mark McGwire- No
Jack Morris- No :(
Mike Mussina- No
Rafael Palmeiro- No
Mike Piazza- Yes
Tim Raines- No
Curt Schilling- No
Lee Smith- No
Sammy Sosa- No way
Frank Thomas- Yes, No Brainer.
Alan Trammell- No
Larry Walker- Yes

#23 SpiritofVodkaDave

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Posted 26 November 2013 - 10:47 PM

I watched Thomas tee off on Twins pitching all through the 90s and 00s and agree - he was a 1 man wrecking crew. But I'm still waiting for a reason why he should be voted in before any of these other 1Bs and DHs.


.974 career OPS good for 14th all time, right behind Stan the Man, Joe Dimaggio and the Mick. Right ahead of Miggy.
If you take off his age 37+ seasons, he had a .996 OPS over 15 seasons....that is insane. Also 500+ HR etc etc

#24 Willihammer

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Posted 26 November 2013 - 11:07 PM

.974 career OPS good for 14th all time, right behind Stan the Man, Joe Dimaggio and the Mick. Right ahead of Miggy.
If you take off his age 37+ seasons, he had a .996 OPS over 15 seasons....that is insane. Also 500+ HR etc etc

Again I don't see how, based on this, you would vote Thomas but not McGwire or Bagwell.

edit: I see you do have Bagwell up there. McGwire then. How does he not make the cut?

Edited by Willihammer, 26 November 2013 - 11:12 PM.


#25 Pius Jefferson

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Posted 26 November 2013 - 11:13 PM

Maddux, Glavine, Thomas, Raines, Biggio, Bagwell, Piazza, Mussina

#26 SpiritofVodkaDave

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Posted 27 November 2013 - 12:28 AM

Again I don't see how, based on this, you would vote Thomas but not McGwire or Bagwell.

edit: I see you do have Bagwell up there. McGwire then. How does he not make the cut?


Personal preference, McGwire was merely good not great until the roids kicked in towards his end in Oakland. Also he is an admidted cheat after he stood in front of the American people/Congress and lied to everyone's faces (ala Sosa and Palmerio as well)

At least Clemens and Bonds never did that, additionally Bonds and Clemens are just in such a different level of greatness period. Bonds is maybe the best hitter of all time and had plenty of other value as well, and Clemens is the best pitcher of all time. Big Mac though great was pretty one dimensional (the long ball)

As far as other suspected "roid users" i don't really care, I never saw proof for Piazza/Bagwell etc.

#27 biggentleben

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Posted 27 November 2013 - 08:22 AM

eventually I would vote for Glavine, Thomas and Walker but not yet.


I will never understand this thinking. A guy is a hall of famer, or he's not. This determining which ballot to choose crap is complete BS. I truly think any writer who states such a comment should permanently lose his HOF vote and possibly his BBWAA membership.
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#28 biggentleben

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Posted 27 November 2013 - 08:39 AM

Personal preference, McGwire was merely good not great until the roids kicked in towards his end in Oakland.


McGwire hit 156 home runs with a 142 OPS+ in his first 4 full seasons in the league, along with a few as a September call-up. Who knows for sure when the roids started in Oakland, but he really was very good right away when he hit the majors, then got hurt for about 3 seasons right in the midst of his "prime years" before exploding back onto the scene in 1995. Yes, his final seasons are in question, but his numbers were above and beyond others in the league using many of the same substances at the time, and while tarnished, the home run chase of 1998 really brought baseball back from the horrid press it was still receiving over the 1994 strike. Yes, he's a cheater, yes, he's admitted to roids, but to say he wasn't one of the great power hitters in the league immediately upon arrival is untrue.
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#29 nicksaviking

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Posted 27 November 2013 - 09:01 AM

Maddox, Biggio, Glavine, Thomas, Morris and Raines.

Some say intentionally not letting guys in on the first ballot is stupid. Well it's tradition to only induct the elite or the guys who hit milestones on the first ballot. If Harmon Killebrew and Joe DiMaggio can't get in on his first try I'm not going to cry for anyone else.

Sorry, steroid suspsects aren't getting in, give it up. I'll it takes is one in four voters to say no and currently it's more like three in four voters. Those cheats knew what kind of stain they would leave on their reputation if caught, I'm not sure why some think they don't have to face the obvious consequences now. And those that were suspected but there may not be much proof? Well that's tough, this looks like it will be your punishment for keeping silent.

#30 nicksaviking

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Posted 27 November 2013 - 09:04 AM

I will never understand this thinking. A guy is a hall of famer, or he's not. This determining which ballot to choose crap is complete BS. I truly think any writer who states such a comment should permanently lose his HOF vote and possibly his BBWAA membership.


Why, because Glavine was a Brave? It's an honor to be inducted on the first ballot, why does everyone have to get in that way? Why wouldn't the ballot be one and done for every player then? I'd vote Glavine in first ballot, but I don't think not doing so is nearly as grevious as you suggest.

Edited by nicksaviking, 27 November 2013 - 09:07 AM.