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Pirates Reacquire Duke Welker from Twins

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#41 Brock Beauchamp

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Posted 20 November 2013 - 08:12 AM

That should about wrap things up for TR this winter. He should move right into the rotation.

This off season, so far, has nearly been as bad as the season was.


You realize that it's November 20th, right? 95% of the free agent market is still available.

#42 edavis0308

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Posted 20 November 2013 - 08:43 AM

You realize that it's November 20th, right? 95% of the free agent market is still available.


You have to admit that the move for another pitcher that is more of the same in our system is quite deflating, especially when it could cost a roster spot to try to hold onto one of our minor leaguers that actually has a smidge of upside.

#43 Brock Beauchamp

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Posted 20 November 2013 - 08:49 AM

You have to admit that the move for another pitcher that is more of the same in our system is quite deflating, especially when it could cost a roster spot to try to hold onto one of our minor leaguers that actually has a smidge of upside.


I don't consider it deflating, honestly... I consider it a non-issue. If whats-his-face holds back any prospects or prevents any acquisitions, then I'll care.

#44 whydidnt

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Posted 20 November 2013 - 08:58 AM

I appreciate the fact that we really don't know if this will have real impact on the makeup of the Twins roster this year. My frustration is that it appears to be more of the same from Ryan. Acquiring guys with questionable stuff that have had some luck and produced a good ERA for one season. The roster is already littered with guys comparable to Johnson, what's the point? We have heard Ryan say for 2 years now that improving the pitching staff is the top priority, yet he continues to bring in the same type of guys. Isn't that the definition of insanity? Seriously, doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.

#45 howieramone1406390264

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Posted 20 November 2013 - 09:16 AM

I appreciate the fact that we really don't know if this will have real impact on the makeup of the Twins roster this year. My frustration is that it appears to be more of the same from Ryan. Acquiring guys with questionable stuff that have had some luck and produced a good ERA for one season. The roster is already littered with guys comparable to Johnson, what's the point? We have heard Ryan say for 2 years now that improving the pitching staff is the top priority, yet he continues to bring in the same type of guys. Isn't that the definition of insanity? Seriously, doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.


I think the definition of insanity is coming to conclusions 11-12 days into free agency. You the know the trade season is still 30 days away right?

#46 TRex

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Posted 20 November 2013 - 09:18 AM

Why is it NOT assumed that the Twins were contemplating removing Welker from the 40-man roster and, even if he made it through waivers unclaimed, he would choose free agency over signing with a team he has never played for?

So, rather than losing him for nothing (and knowing that Pittsburgh would welcome him back), why not arrange a good-will trade? In addition, did anyone notice that Matt Sosnick was Johnson's agent? Should we also not assume, then, that the Twins know how Johnson will react to being removed from the 40-man roster? I am sure he realizes the opportunity he has with the Twins whether on the 40-man or not.

It just seems odd to me that these moves (i.e. positions 39, 40 and 41 on the 40-man roster) sometimes generate as much angst as if/when/whom the Twins will sign as free agent pitchers which, to me, is a logarithmically more important decision!

#47 notoriousgod71

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Posted 20 November 2013 - 09:21 AM

I think the definition of insanity is coming to conclusions 11-12 days into free agency. You the know the trade season is still 30 days away right?


Had anyone come to conclusions 11 days into FA last year I doubt their reaction would be any different than if they had done so on March 31.

#48 nicksaviking

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Posted 20 November 2013 - 09:31 AM

Why is it NOT assumed that the Twins were contemplating removing Welker from the 40-man roster and, even if he made it through waivers unclaimed, he would choose free agency over signing with a team he has never played for?

So, rather than losing him for nothing (and knowing that Pittsburgh would welcome him back), why not arrange a good-will trade? In addition, did anyone notice that Matt Sosnick was Johnson's agent? Should we also not assume, then, that the Twins know how Johnson will react to being removed from the 40-man roster? I am sure he realizes the opportunity he has with the Twins whether on the 40-man or not.

It just seems odd to me that these moves (i.e. positions 39, 40 and 41 on the 40-man roster) sometimes generate as much angst as if/when/whom the Twins will sign as free agent pitchers which, to me, is a logarithmically more important decision!


If Johnson is removed from the 40-man I'm fine with this. If he remains I don't like it at all. Pitchers like Welker who can throw near triple digits will have a chance, even if small, to be a set-up man or even a closer. Those types of pitchers have value. It would seem to me that 29-year-old, AAA, journeymen with low minor leagure strikeout rates have a much, much smaller chance at being anything of real value.

#49 SpiritofVodkaDave

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Posted 20 November 2013 - 09:35 AM

If Johnson is removed from the 40-man I'm fine with this. If he remains I don't like it at all. Pitchers like Welker who can throw near triple digits will have a chance, even if small, to be a set-up man or even a closer. Those types of pitchers have value. It would seem to me that 29-year-old, AAA, journeymen with low minor leagure strikeout rates have a much, much smaller chance at being anything of real value.


One could argue that 27 year old, bullpen guys with a lifetime BB rate or 4.8/9 K:BB 1.48 and a 1.461 WHIP, 4.19 ERA have a very small chance of being anything of real value as well. Did we learn nothing from Jim Hooey?

Besides, when it comes to pitching the Twins current depth/strength by FAR is the bullpen, while the rotation seriously needs as many arms as possible at this point.

#50 nicksaviking

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Posted 20 November 2013 - 09:57 AM

One could argue that 27 year old, bullpen guys with a lifetime BB rate or 4.8/9 K:BB 1.48 and a 1.461 WHIP, 4.19 ERA have a very small chance of being anything of real value as well. Did we learn nothing from Jim Hooey?

Besides, when it comes to pitching the Twins current depth/strength by FAR is the bullpen, while the rotation seriously needs as many arms as possible at this point.


I agree the rotation needs help, but it needs quality, not quantity. There are plenty of these guys to choose from, we don't need as many of them as possible. This just muddies the waters and roster spots are precious at the moment.

#51 big dog

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Posted 20 November 2013 - 10:04 AM

At this point I would be willing to sign players based on interesting names. What else is there to be excited about?


Perhaps we should give Mr Johnson a nickname to compensate for the loss of Duke. "Huge" is too obvious/graphic. What else has anyone got?

#52 SpiritofVodkaDave

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Posted 20 November 2013 - 10:09 AM

I agree the rotation needs help, but it needs quality, not quantity. There are plenty of these guys to choose from, we don't need as many of them as possible. This just muddies the waters and roster spots are precious at the moment.


If Johnson was a righty I would be more inclined to agree, however, the Twins really were lacking LHSP, I think Diamond is the only other one in the system who is MLB ready? ( I don't count Duensing at this point)

So yeah, chances are Johnson is nothing special, but Welker wasn't going to be special either and the Twins have/had plenty of arms in the pen. The need for a lefty starter (even if he is replacement level or tops out as a#5 guy) simply was a greater need then a bullpen arm project.

At the end of the day though, its really not a big deal either way. There is about a 95% chance neither one of these guys posts more than 1.0 WAR in a season.

#53 nicksaviking

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Posted 20 November 2013 - 10:40 AM

If Johnson was a righty I would be more inclined to agree, however, the Twins really were lacking LHSP, I think Diamond is the only other one in the system who is MLB ready? ( I don't count Duensing at this point)


Aside from Diamond they have Albers, Darnell and Dean, not to mention another clone in Pedro Hernandez who they already felt comfortable enough to ditch. Why didn't they just hang onto Hernandez if this was going to be the outcome? Not that I wanted them to.

#54 diehardtwinsfan

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Posted 20 November 2013 - 10:50 AM

I don't understand how anyone would prefer a reliever with likely no real future over a starter with likely no real future, especially with regard to a team with a good bullpen and a pathetic rotation.


I'd add to this. If Thrylos' report is right and he can hit 94 now, switching him to the pen at one point means he might be able to add a few ticks to that if he fails (likely) as a starter.

I'm not terribly worked up about this. I'll be a bit more upset if he's suddenly a candidate for the rotation and no real help is added. He's a wild card, and the odds of him being useful are very low.

#55 Brock Beauchamp

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Posted 20 November 2013 - 10:52 AM

Aside from Diamond they have Albers, Darnell and Dean, not to mention another clone in Pedro Hernandez who they already felt comfortable enough to ditch. Why didn't they just hang onto Hernandez if this was going to be the outcome? Not that I wanted them to.


Yeah, this franchise isn't exactly short on soft-tossing #5/#6 pitchers who throw from either side of the mound.

That's probably my only issue with this move. Why does Ryan even want this guy? The Twins already have a backlog of AAA starters that they need to sort and find out who is worth keeping and who is a burden.

#56 jay

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Posted 20 November 2013 - 10:53 AM

It just seems odd to me that these moves (i.e. positions 39, 40 and 41 on the 40-man roster) sometimes generate as much angst as if/when/whom the Twins will sign as free agent pitchers which, to me, is a logarithmically more important decision!


But, but, but... JOE BENSON. Fire Ryan now!

Seriously, I couldn't agree more.

#57 gunnarthor

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Posted 20 November 2013 - 10:56 AM

I appreciate the fact that we really don't know if this will have real impact on the makeup of the Twins roster this year. My frustration is that it appears to be more of the same from Ryan. Acquiring guys with questionable stuff that have had some luck and produced a good ERA for one season. The roster is already littered with guys comparable to Johnson, what's the point? We have heard Ryan say for 2 years now that improving the pitching staff is the top priority, yet he continues to bring in the same type of guys. Isn't that the definition of insanity? Seriously, doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.


Ryan has brought in a lot of different type of pitchers since he got back. Meyer, May, Berrios, Stewart, Gonzalez, Worley, Hernandez, Welker, Johnson, Albers, Pelfrey, Correia, Deduno, Fein, Eades, Harden, Burton etc. They run the gamut from potential Ace to reliever to AAA depth to injured lottery ticket.

#58 gunnarthor

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Posted 20 November 2013 - 10:57 AM

I think the definition of insanity is coming to conclusions 11-12 days into free agency. You the know the trade season is still 30 days away right?


We need the 'like' button back.

#59 gunnarthor

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Posted 20 November 2013 - 11:03 AM

If Johnson is removed from the 40-man I'm fine with this. If he remains I don't like it at all. Pitchers like Welker who can throw near triple digits will have a chance, even if small, to be a set-up man or even a closer. Those types of pitchers have value. It would seem to me that 29-year-old, AAA, journeymen with low minor leagure strikeout rates have a much, much smaller chance at being anything of real value.


Sometimes their value is that they are overrated. Twins turned Bullock and got a 2 WAR season out of a back end starter. Same thing could happen here. I just don't get the fuss over this. As others have pointed out, Welker isn't anything special, isn't that valuable and he plays at a position of depth on this team. It seems like a good idea for the team to trade a guy like that for something that fits better.

#60 whydidnt

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Posted 20 November 2013 - 11:14 AM

I think the definition of insanity is coming to conclusions 11-12 days into free agency. You the know the trade season is still 30 days away right?

And yet, I don't think I jumped to any conclusions (leaving out the fact that your definition is just something you just made up). I simply pointed out that this move is the same kind of move we have seen the Twins and Ryan make repeatedly. What evidence do you have that they will do something different? I agree wholeheartedly that it's early in the off-season, however, the point of this thread is to discuss this transaction, and even you have to admit, it's the same type of transaction we have been seeing for years.