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LHP Pedro Hernandez signed with the Rockies

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#21 spycake

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Posted 16 November 2013 - 03:00 PM

Liriano certainly had upside -- 2010 was very good -- but 2011-2012 he was really quite bad. I mean, in terms of starts/innings/effectiveness, Liriano was for those two years basically Pelfrey 2013, which wasn't all that pretty. And 2009 was another season just like that.

And unfortunately, even if the Twins had got him back for 2/14, I am doubtful that we could have coaxed those same results out of him. The Pirates staff was great last year, even with some unlikely performers. I'm not necessarily blaming Anderson, but outside of Diamond's flukey 2012, it's been awhile since we've seen a starting pitcher turn things around or exceed expectations in Minnesota.

#22 spycake

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Posted 16 November 2013 - 03:07 PM

Big criticism of the Liriano deal: why get two marginal 40-man roster guys? Maybe the Butera trade has thrown off our expectations, but if you're so far from contention that you won't even bother signing quality free agents, I think it would have been better to get a low minors guy when you are dumping MLB salary. Two 40-man fillers for Morneau is a little more understandable, given his salary and waiver considerations, but Liriano was inexpensive and it was only July.

#23 70charger

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Posted 16 November 2013 - 04:50 PM

Big criticism of the Liriano deal: why get two marginal 40-man roster guys? Maybe the Butera trade has thrown off our expectations, but if you're so far from contention that you won't even bother signing quality free agents, I think it would have been better to get a low minors guy when you are dumping MLB salary. Two 40-man fillers for Morneau is a little more understandable, given his salary and waiver considerations, but Liriano was inexpensive and it was only July.


This is pretty much the ONLY criticism I think is reasonable about the Liriano deal. He was a terrible pitcher, he will be again soon, he was walking anyway, he didn't want to resign with the Twins, and literally the only thing to be done was to get something for him. You can argue that that something should have been something else, but I'm completely okay with how it went down. This trade was the furthest thing from ill-advised.

#24 kab21

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Posted 16 November 2013 - 06:41 PM

It should have been painfully obvious that Liriano needed a change of scenery. He was quite talented but there was considerable friction between Liriano and the staff and I don't we would have seen that great season (2013) if he had stayed with the Twins. It would have just been another painful season of watching a talented pitcher underperform.

This is the type of pitcher that the Twins should be looking for this offseason. Sometimes guys just need a change of scenery to get back on track.

#25 Guest_USAFChief_*

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Posted 16 November 2013 - 07:19 PM

It's ok to admit it was a poor decision to trade him for nothing before at least exploring an extension. It was.

Just like its ok to look back on the Hardy deal, releasing Ortiz, and other ill advised personnel moves made, in the hopes that maybe they'll not be repeated.

#26 TheLeviathan

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Posted 16 November 2013 - 08:04 PM

I think far too often we assume that a player's performance one year would've been the same regardless of where he played. It's too hypothetical to be said with certainty.

#27 nicksaviking

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Posted 17 November 2013 - 01:51 AM

I'm honestly curious to hear from those who rip this Liriano trade - should the Twins have just kept Liriano or do you think a better deal was out there?

I can't seem to word this in a non-confrontational way and I need to go eat 50 wings, so I can't keep trying. Honestly curious.


I've said it a bunch, but the biggest issue with the trade was that the Twins ridiculously took on two guys who required 40 man roster spots. They gave up one roster spot and took on two. For a clearly rebuilding team it was a terrible decision considering both Hernandez and Escobar were among the five worst players on the 40 man. It made no sense. Surely they could have gotten someone that would not have required a roster decision but the front office was adamant that the team was not rebuilding and they needed pieces that could help right away.

Reports indicate that the Twins did make that exact same offer to Liriano. He chose to go elsewhere.


I think that's news to many of us, do you have a link to that? I don't recall that at all last off season.

Edited by nicksaviking, 17 November 2013 - 01:53 AM.


#28 Thrylos

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Posted 17 November 2013 - 08:50 AM

It's ok to admit it was a poor decision to trade him for nothing before at least exploring an extension. It was.

Just like its ok to look back on the Hardy deal, releasing Ortiz, and other ill advised personnel moves made, in the hopes that maybe they'll not be repeated.



Totally agree, but for some reason, for some people Ryan, Gardenhire and Anderson & Co can do nothing wrong. And I don't know a single other organization in baseball that would have kept any of the three after the 99+96+96 in a row.
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#29 Guest_USAFChief_*

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Posted 17 November 2013 - 09:17 AM

I think far too often we assume that a player's performance one year would've been the same regardless of where he played. It's too hypothetical to be said with certainty.

That theory didnt seem to apply in the Ortiz thread.

#30 beckmt

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Posted 17 November 2013 - 09:26 AM

If Liriano keeps throwing sliders, he is a major candidate for another arm injury. Escobar may turn out to be an OK utility player, getting something was better than nothing because Liriano was not coming back here. It was the Hardy trade(Bill Smith and perhaps Gardy not likely him) that made no sense.

#31 jorgenswest

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Posted 17 November 2013 - 09:27 AM

Liriano made a great decision for his career.

Going to the Pirates put him in an environment with a very good defense behind him and one of the best defensive catchers in baseball.

Any free agent pitcher trying to build value towards their next contract should be advised to strongly consider the Pirates. Josh Johnson and Phil Hughes should be first in line.

#32 TheLeviathan

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Posted 17 November 2013 - 10:32 AM

That theory didnt seem to apply in the Ortiz thread.


And I would totally agree. I think the mistake was not letting Ortiz go (and possibly same with Liriano) but the awful way in which is abilities were hampered by our coaching staff.

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Posted 17 November 2013 - 10:39 AM

And I would totally agree. I think the mistake was not letting Ortiz go (and possibly same with Liriano) but the awful way in which is abilities were hampered by our coaching staff.

Fair enough.

#34 goulik

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Posted 17 November 2013 - 01:18 PM

Totally agree, but for some reason, for some people Ryan, Gardenhire and Anderson & Co can do nothing wrong. And I don't know a single other organization in baseball that would have kept any of the three after the 99+96+96 in a row.


The obvious reason is after the first losing season, Bill Smith was fired for ruining our organization and the official line is that it's not Gardys fault the talent has sucked. Regressions and poor performances are putting that theory in question and I would not hate a change in coaches, I am just agreeing that there is a good arguements. tR is getting deserved heat for the third season but grace because we see the minors have been rebuilt by him the past two years. That grace is run its course and this off season makes or breaks him... It has to translate to the MLB level. This year.

#35 Thrylos

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Posted 17 November 2013 - 02:55 PM

The obvious reason is after the first losing season, Bill Smith was fired for ruining our organization .


Terry Ryan v.2 has a worse record than Bill Smith. And Bill Smith did not make the Gomez, Hardy and Capps trades, the Nishioka acquisition and the ill-advised contract extensions to Blackburn, Pavano etc by himself. He is not a baseball person. He made them because of recommendations by Gardy (n Andy) and the Front Office scout people. How Smith is to blame and all of those others who actually made the recommendations are not, is a mystery. If you blame Smith for 2011 you have to blame Ryan for 2012 and 2013 and give Smith credit for 2010.

And as far as who "destroyed" teams, Ryan is the one who "destroyed" the World Champion teams that MacPhail had built. But he never gets any heat for that (or for his role in the contraction business.)

Teflon.

Edited by Thrylos, 17 November 2013 - 02:57 PM.

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#36 John Bonnes

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Posted 17 November 2013 - 03:08 PM

Well here's why I hated it:

http://twinsdaily.co...e-Liriano-Trade

My primary criticism was on the timing. When the Liriano trade was made, he was the best remaining arm available, had been really, really good for two months, but his last start had been a clunker. But he had one more start before the deadline and the Twins traded him within 24 hours of it. Why not wait until the next start?

It it wasn't because the offer was so compelling. At the time we knew what these guys were and they were just that. For that matter they weren't even far enough from the majors to project any real career. They were just two AAA guys with no future other than eating service time.

It felt like Ryan panicked.

#37 howieramone1406390264

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Posted 17 November 2013 - 03:26 PM

Well here's why I hated it:

http://twinsdaily.co...e-Liriano-Trade

My primary criticism was on the timing. When the Liriano trade was made, he was the best remaining arm available, had been really, really good for two months, but his last start had been a clunker. But he had one more start before the deadline and the Twins traded him within 24 hours of it. Why not wait until the next start?

It it wasn't because the offer was so compelling. At the time we knew what these guys were and they were just that. For that matter they weren't even far enough from the majors to project any real career. They were just two AAA guys with no future other than eating service time.

It felt like Ryan panicked.


I think most Twins fans looked on this trade with profound indifference. Terry Ryan panic, not likely.

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Posted 17 November 2013 - 04:11 PM

... profound indifference ...

Not a situation a sports franchise should ever hope to achieve.

#39 howieramone1406390264

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Posted 17 November 2013 - 04:32 PM

Not a situation a sports franchise should ever hope to achieve.


Really? Are you one of the ones that got upset when the Twins accepted cash for Jamey Carroll rather than a PTBNL? Maybe it's my business background, but I don't sweat the small stuff.

#40 nicksaviking

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Posted 17 November 2013 - 05:04 PM

Really? Are you one of the ones that got upset when the Twins accepted cash for Jamey Carroll rather than a PTBNL? Maybe it's my business background, but I don't sweat the small stuff.


The trade of the teams best starter is small stuff?