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Talks with Bronson Arroyo "heating up"

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#81 howieramone1406390264

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Posted 14 November 2013 - 08:05 AM

I tend to agree about this year, RB.

My problems with this are:

Arroyo isn't the best that's available this year, and

When there are aces available, the Twins find reasons not to pursue them.

so I have a hard time giving them a pass this year.


There are no more than 15 aces in all of baseball. Expand that to front of the rotation starters, which are 1's and 2's, you have maybe 40 total. Which ones did the Twins have a realistic chance to sign?

Note, Meyer projects as a 2, Stewart as an ace. Our chances for a 1-2 in the 2014 draft are very good. Ryan has been back 25 months.

#82 Guest_USAFChief_*

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Posted 14 November 2013 - 08:20 AM

. Which ones did the Twins have a realistic chance to sign?

Note, Meyer projects as a 2, Stewart as an ace. Our chances for a 1-2 in the 2014 draft are very good. Ryan has been back 25 months.

Pretty much all of them?

The rest of your post has zero to do with the topic.

#83 gunnarthor

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Posted 14 November 2013 - 08:51 AM

Pretty much all of them?

The rest of your post has zero to do with the topic.


You really thought the Twins were going to outbid the Dodgers for Grienke or add another year (and money) to Sanchez's contract to get him away from Detroit? Or that would even have made sense?

#84 Willihammer

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Posted 14 November 2013 - 08:52 AM

Hey, Hammer... You know me... I'm not trying to be a prick... But can you point me to that quote. I hadn't seen it.

If Ryan used those words publicly... That would be a mistake of poor salesmanship on his part. And I tend to defend Ryan. I'll forgive him but a mistake nonetheless.


http://www.startribu.../231680191.html

“People look at us on paper and say, ‘Well, I have a lot of interest in playing for a contender,’ ” Ryan said Tuesday during a break in baseball’s annual general managers meetings here. “Now, do they consider us a contender? I suspect not.”


This is the man who also said Correia "left money on the table." Turns out Willingham did too.

So what I suspect is going on is the same thing this offseason. Ryan casting a wide lowball net, fishing for players with a unique reason to play in MN for a discount. And when he doesn't find any, the lip service we get is "they want to play for a contender." Well, if that's true, then I guess none of these guys will wind up in Chicago, Seattle, NYM, Houston, etc.

#85 gunnarthor

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Posted 14 November 2013 - 08:56 AM

What's amazing to me about this thread is that the Twins are considering signing a pitcher who has avg 202ip, 105 ERA+ and 3 WAR per season for the last couple years (while playing in a hitter's park) and people are complaining.

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Posted 14 November 2013 - 08:59 AM

You really thought the Twins were going to outbid the Dodgers for Grienke or add another year (and money) to Sanchez's contract to get him away from Detroit? Or that would even have made sense?

were going to? No.

Was "unrealistic"? Also no.

The Twins put restrictions on themselves. That does not mean those self imposed restrictions make acting otherwise "unrealistic."

#87 notoriousgod71

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Posted 14 November 2013 - 09:06 AM

You really thought the Twins were going to outbid the Dodgers for Grienke or add another year (and money) to Sanchez's contract to get him away from Detroit? Or that would even have made sense?


I don't think anyone thought the Twins were going to outbid anyone and that's the problem. You are never going to be able to sign good players if you don't outbid everyone else.

#88 nicksaviking

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Posted 14 November 2013 - 09:07 AM

Fair enough

Sometimes I get the impression that some TD'ers judge pitchers like Arroyo in comparison to Kershaw instead of judged in comparison to someone like Hughes.

Personally... I think Arroyo is an eye of the beholder thing. I like him better than Hughes.

However... I want to be clear... I like Wacha better than Arroyo.


Arroyo is a good pitcher, and if the Twins signed him after signing a couple other guys who can miss bats it would be different. I shouldn't speak for others who are frustrated, but I think it boils down to one question: If the Twins are serious about getting a top 20 free agent pitcher, why are they targeting one of the two guys who can't manage an acceptable strikeout rate?

Missing bats is a huge problem for this club, why are they looking to add to that issue?

#89 gunnarthor

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Posted 14 November 2013 - 09:09 AM

were going to? No.

Was "unrealistic"? Also no.

The Twins put restrictions on themselves. That does not mean those self imposed restrictions make acting otherwise "unrealistic."


Why on earth did you quote "unrealistic"? In your mind, would signing Sanchez and/or Grienke have made sense for the 2012 Twins?

#90 JB_Iowa

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Posted 14 November 2013 - 09:13 AM

I have mixed feelings about this.

Of course I would like the Twins to sign pitchers with more upside the Arroyo. And, I also have the fear that signing Arroyo will be the Twins "big splash".

I also have fears about how Arroyo will age over the next two years -- and could not tolerate seeing a contract for longer than 2 years or with a team option for a 3rd with a reasonable buyout (this reminds me a bit of the re-signing of Pavano).

But, Arroyo does appear to me to provide the leadership and stability needed for ONE of the open spots in this pitching staff. I'm not a big Rick Anderson fan but even if I thought he was the best pitching coach in the world, I would still feel that the staff also needs a veteran leader that they can learn from. Someone who can show younger pitchers how to endure adversity, how to overcome challenges, the value of durability and going deep into games and, simply how to handle themselves and their emotions on the field.

I don't know much about Arroyo but am assuming that he has developed those characteristics and is willing to provide that type of leadership. If that's the case, I have no problem with his signing. I just don't want it to be the only splash the Twins make in the free agent pitching market.

#91 gunnarthor

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Posted 14 November 2013 - 09:13 AM

I don't think anyone thought the Twins were going to outbid anyone and that's the problem. You are never going to be able to sign good players if you don't outbid everyone else.


You realize a lot of teams outbid the Twins to sign worse players, right? Jackson, Saunders, Blanton, Haren, Marcum, Lannon, Baker, Dempster, McCarthy etc. That's the problem with trying to rebuild through free agency.

#92 JB_Iowa

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Posted 14 November 2013 - 09:17 AM

As for timing which pitcher you sign first, its not always something you can control. You start with what you can and add for your other open needs as you can.

I don't think you should really evaluate individual pieces of an off-season -- it really needs to be how the total "plan" plays out. Let's just hope that the Twins have a plan and that its a good one.

#93 JB_Iowa

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Posted 14 November 2013 - 09:21 AM

Well, Willihammer, I'm not a Pohlad pocket protector. My thought would be that signing Arroyo (although I'd rather overpay for 2 than go 3) would be that it gives some stability that let's you take a flyer or two on some younger pitchers with upside. Pohlad's pockets be d*mned. (I also don't have much faith in saving spots so if they can sign 3 FA pitchers instead of 2, all the better).

#94 TheLeviathan

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Posted 14 November 2013 - 09:30 AM

It's a pretty valid concern that a guy who is this old already has lost that much velocity. But like I said, I'd just be thrilled by the expansion of effort this represents.

Also, there is some real hypocrisy in the notion that three years for a 37 year old is a good thing but five years to a 29 year old is too risky.

Edited by TheLeviathan, 14 November 2013 - 09:33 AM.


#95 kab21

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Posted 14 November 2013 - 09:42 AM

The optimist in me wants to believe that the Arroyo talk is about securing a solid pitcher while a bigger splash is made later in the offseason.

The realist in me believes that this offseason will be about acquiring some veteran players that make the team less embarrassing but not actually good (or younger).

I really don't have a problem with Arroyo but this is a lot like signing Correia last year. Rather uninspiring but it maintains the mountains of payroll flexibility for the next decade.

#96 gunnarthor

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Posted 14 November 2013 - 09:45 AM

Has anyone suggested a 3 year deal? I might have missed it but I think most of us seem to think it'll be in the 2yr/10m range, which would be fine.

#97 howieramone1406390264

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Posted 14 November 2013 - 09:52 AM

It's a pretty valid concern that a guy who is this old already has lost that much velocity. But like I said, I'd just be thrilled by the expansion of effort this represents.

Also, there is some real hypocrisy in the notion that three years for a 37 year old is a good thing but five years to a 29 year old is too risky.


When does a difference of opinion become hypocrisy? Baseball is only a game. Why not have some fun with it, without name calling?

#98 TheLeviathan

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Posted 14 November 2013 - 10:14 AM

When does a difference of opinion become hypocrisy? Baseball is only a game. Why not have some fun with it, without name calling?


Hypocrisy is an accurate description of maintaining contradictory arguments on a related point. There is no name calling to it, just an accurate descriptor. It's not in good form to decry the contract of, say, Sanchez and then laud a move like this. Especially if you emphasize risks associated with aging.

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Posted 14 November 2013 - 10:30 AM

Why on earth did you quote "unrealistic"? In your mind, would signing Sanchez and/or Grienke have made sense for the 2012 Twins?

It would have been 2013, but yes.

#100 cmathewson

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Posted 14 November 2013 - 11:08 AM

Sanchez, anyway. Not sure about Grienke.
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