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College/International Player Draft Payroll Reduction

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#1 jharaldson

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Posted 22 October 2013 - 04:07 PM

I recently read a story about how the Twins balked at signing a Cuban pitcher (Dalier Hinojosa) for a $4 million bonus even though it would not count against the hard caps for International player signing and it got me thinking about how much the Twins are investing in these areas compared to 2012.

College Draft 2012 - $12.4 million
Breaking Down Bonus Money for the 2012 MLB Draft

International Draft 2012 - $2.9 million
International Bonus Slots Another Sign Of Draft Nearing - BaseballAmerica.com

All Prospects 2012 - $15.3 million

College Draft 2013 - $8.2 million
Draft Bonus Pools Rise 8.2 Percent - BaseballAmerica.com

International Draft 2013 - $3.2 million
International Bonus Slots Another Sign Of Draft Nearing - BaseballAmerica.com

All Prospects 2013 - 11.4 million

[COLOR=#ff0000]Total Decrease in Prospect Payroll = $3.9 million or %25[/COLOR]

#2 DuluthFan

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Posted 22 October 2013 - 06:05 PM

Looking at those raw numbers does not tell the whole story.
In 2012 the Twins also had two first round compensatory picks (Jose Berrios and Luke Bard). Those 2 picks signed for approximately $2.77 million.
They also had an extra 2nd round pick in 2012 who signed for approximately 700K.
Overall they spent $3.4 million on those extra picks.

The Twins did not have extra picks in 2013.

I did not dig deeper to find how many players they did or did not sign, or who signed below slot value.

#3 diehardtwinsfan

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Posted 22 October 2013 - 06:18 PM

I recently read a story about how the Twins balked at signing a Cuban pitcher (Dalier Hinojosa) for a $4 million bonus even though it would not count against the hard caps for International player signing and it got me thinking about how much the Twins are investing in these areas compared to 2012.

College Draft 2012 - $12.4 million
Breaking Down Bonus Money for the 2012 MLB Draft

International Draft 2012 - $2.9 million
International Bonus Slots Another Sign Of Draft Nearing - BaseballAmerica.com

All Prospects 2012 - $15.3 million

College Draft 2013 - $8.2 million
Draft Bonus Pools Rise 8.2 Percent - BaseballAmerica.com

International Draft 2013 - $3.2 million
International Bonus Slots Another Sign Of Draft Nearing - BaseballAmerica.com

All Prospects 2013 - 11.4 million

[COLOR=#ff0000]Total Decrease in Prospect Payroll = $3.9 million or %25[/COLOR]


I'm not sure the international number for 2013 is accurate. Never saw the dollar amount for their most recent signing. The college amount is set in stone. They don't have control over those numbers.

#4 jharaldson

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Posted 23 October 2013 - 08:13 AM

Looking at those raw numbers does not tell the whole story.
In 2012 the Twins also had two first round compensatory picks (Jose Berrios and Luke Bard). Those 2 picks signed for approximately $2.77 million.
They also had an extra 2nd round pick in 2012 who signed for approximately 700K.
Overall they spent $3.4 million on those extra picks.

The Twins did not have extra picks in 2013.

I did not dig deeper to find how many players they did or did not sign, or who signed below slot value.


Agreed, the Twins had 13 picks in the 2012 draft and only 10 in the 2013 draft which accounts for that reduction in spending. The question is should the Twins sit on that money or should they put that money to use and try to sign some of the available Cuban prospects that don't count against the caps? I would say that this team would be better if we used that money to sign some of these over 23 year old prospects from Cuba that don't count against the international spending caps.

#5 jharaldson

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Posted 23 October 2013 - 08:15 AM

I'm not sure the international number for 2013 is accurate. Never saw the dollar amount for their most recent signing. The college amount is set in stone. They don't have control over those numbers.


I sourced the international number from Baseball America and provided linked documentation to it. Do you believe that Baseball America has reported the international draft slots inaccurately or do you have a source that shows an alternate number?

#6 mike wants wins

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Posted 23 October 2013 - 08:23 AM

I think jharaldson makes a good point, if they could afford the draftee signings, why couldn't that money have been applied to international FAs or even US FAs? They clearly had the baseball budget....
Lighten up Francis....

#7 diehardtwinsfan

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Posted 23 October 2013 - 09:37 AM

I sourced the international number from Baseball America and provided linked documentation to it. Do you believe that Baseball America has reported the international draft slots inaccurately or do you have a source that shows an alternate number?


I'm saying the number hasn't been updated. The Twins were at 3.2 prior to their most recent interenational signing, which was covered quite a bit in this forum, and that issue was addressed in that thread too. Perhaps they signed the kid for 10k, no one really knows at this point, but I doubt that.

There has been very little coverage on their late signings and finding accurate info on this seems to be imposssible.

#8 jharaldson

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Posted 23 October 2013 - 10:15 AM

I'm saying the number hasn't been updated. The Twins were at 3.2 prior to their most recent interenational signing, which was covered quite a bit in this forum, and that issue was addressed in that thread too. Perhaps they signed the kid for 10k, no one really knows at this point, but I doubt that.

There has been very little coverage on their late signings and finding accurate info on this seems to be imposssible.


I agree that sites having a comprehensive list of international signings and amounts per team are impossible to find. The Baseball America article I linked to is not a list of signings though, it is a list of faux draft slots and the amount they are valued at. When you add them up for each team it is the amount they are allowed to spend by MLB on international prospects under the age of 23. So even though we don't have a list of all the Twins signings and their value we know that MLB is capping it at $3.2 million for the Twins this year so I am using that as the max they will spend on international players under 23 this year because they will not accept the penalty. Similar to how MLB just capped all teams at $2.9 million last year and the Twins did not go over that.

Edited by jharaldson, 23 October 2013 - 10:18 AM.


#9 nicksaviking

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Posted 23 October 2013 - 10:31 AM

I want the Twins to do better with international players as well, though I don't know that I'm going to get too upset about not getting Hinojosa. I'll save that for other non-signings later this offseason.

From your post I thought there may have been a report that the Twins refused to sign him. In actuality the Red Sox signed him at $4.25 million. As the big market Red Sox paid $4.25M the Twins would not have gotten him for $4M. It may not be fair, but if you're going to get a free agent away from a big market winner, you're going to have to offer more than they do, maybe quite a bit more.

That being said, many people think this guy is a reliever. He's got an 88-91 MPH fastball. Now that doesn't mean he can't strike guys out, but that velocity certainly doesn't get my juices flowing. I'm done with soft-tossing back of the rotation arms. I would have been happy to take a chance on something Cuban, but this guy doesn't look to be much to get excited about.

#10 James

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Posted 23 October 2013 - 03:21 PM

Agreed, the Twins had 13 picks in the 2012 draft and only 10 in the 2013 draft which accounts for that reduction in spending. The question is should the Twins sit on that money or should they put that money to use and try to sign some of the available Cuban prospects that don't count against the caps? I would say that this team would be better if we used that money to sign some of these over 23 year old prospects from Cuba that don't count against the international spending caps.

There's also the fact that they were drafting at #4 in 2013 ($4.5M slot) rather than #2 in 2012 ($6.2M Slot, although Buxton signed for $6M even).

The slot numbers did go up slightly from 2012 to 2013, so you can't really compare slot values from year to year.

As long as the Twins spend their entire bonus pool for both college and international draftees, I'm fine with what they're doing. If their leaving money on the table, then there is possibly a problem.

So, bonus money for rule 4 draft and international "draftees" really isn't related to international free agent spending.

You can come up with statistics to prove anything. Forty percent of all people know that.


#11 gunnarthor

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Posted 23 October 2013 - 05:45 PM

Yeah, basically what James said. I think the Twins have pretty much spent all their money - a few years ago they signed Thorpe for 500k so it doesn't always mean they need to spend 1m+ for a good player. They're all sorta lottery tickets.

I do think the Twins should spend a lot of Pohlad's money on the Cuban and Japanese players that they can but I don't know a thing about any of them to say whether or not the Twins missed on someone or not.

#12 diehardtwinsfan

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Posted 23 October 2013 - 06:39 PM

I agree that sites having a comprehensive list of international signings and amounts per team are impossible to find. The Baseball America article I linked to is not a list of signings though, it is a list of faux draft slots and the amount they are valued at. When you add them up for each team it is the amount they are allowed to spend by MLB on international prospects under the age of 23. So even though we don't have a list of all the Twins signings and their value we know that MLB is capping it at $3.2 million for the Twins this year so I am using that as the max they will spend on international players under 23 this year because they will not accept the penalty. Similar to how MLB just capped all teams at $2.9 million last year and the Twins did not go over that.


Then I think BA is wrong. Their number was around 3.9 for the international pool. They were at 3.1/3.2 before they made their last signing.

#13 jharaldson

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Posted 24 October 2013 - 08:18 AM

I want the Twins to do better with international players as well, though I don't know that I'm going to get too upset about not getting Hinojosa. I'll save that for other non-signings later this offseason.

From your post I thought there may have been a report that the Twins refused to sign him. In actuality the Red Sox signed him at $4.25 million. As the big market Red Sox paid $4.25M the Twins would not have gotten him for $4M. It may not be fair, but if you're going to get a free agent away from a big market winner, you're going to have to offer more than they do, maybe quite a bit more.

That being said, many people think this guy is a reliever. He's got an 88-91 MPH fastball. Now that doesn't mean he can't strike guys out, but that velocity certainly doesn't get my juices flowing. I'm done with soft-tossing back of the rotation arms. I would have been happy to take a chance on something Cuban, but this guy doesn't look to be much to get excited about.


I read about the signing at the following URL

Twins have signed 12 international free agents, expect to pursue more | 1500 ESPN Twin Cities ? Minnesota Sports News & Opinion (Twins, Vikings, Wolves, Wild, Gophers) | Sportswire: Minnesota Twins

[COLOR=#000000][FONT=Verdana]Even before conventional free agency begins six days after the World Series, the Twins tried to spend seven-figures.
[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#000000][FONT=Verdana]They made an effort to sign Cuban right-hander Dalier Hinojosa, according to a team source.[/FONT][/COLOR]


I don't know if they offered $4 million or not but the story intimates that they were in the bidding but dropped out when it got too rich for their taste.

I agree that reports are mixed on Hinojosa. Some reflect the items you brought up but this report from Jesse Sanchez at MLB.com intimates a higher ceiling with a mid-90's fastball and talks about 2 perfect games he threw.

Right-handed pitcher Dalier Hinojosa of Cuba defects, petitioning MLB to become free agent | MLB.com: News

I cannot judge which report is accurate but if our choices are Hinojosa in our minor league system or $4-5 million extra in the Twins profit margin that had previously been allocated for prospect acquisition in I would choose Hinojosa all day long.

#14 nicksaviking

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Posted 24 October 2013 - 08:31 AM

I don't know if they offered $4 million or not but the story intimates that they were in the bidding but dropped out when it got too rich for their taste.


I just don't see anywhere where the Twins dropped out or pulled back an offer. It looks to me the Twins tried to get this guy but he simply prefered the Red Sox. Free agency is a two way street, the player has to want to sign too.

I hammer the front office all the time, but for all we know they DID offer $5 million. Surely there is a magic number that would get a player to pick the Twins over the Red Sox, but we don't know what that is. Could the Twins have offered $6 million to top the Red Sox $4.25 million? Probably. But even I, as a front office detractor, don't want this club spending $6 million on a noodle-armed relief pitcher this early into free agency. After the team signs a couple of hard throwing starters, great, go nuts, but relievers can wait until we know what needs to be budgeted to fix the rotation.

Edited by nicksaviking, 24 October 2013 - 08:58 AM.


#15 spycake

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Posted 24 October 2013 - 09:24 AM

Agreed, the Twins had 13 picks in the 2012 draft and only 10 in the 2013 draft which accounts for that reduction in spending. The question is should the Twins sit on that money or should they put that money to use and try to sign some of the available Cuban prospects that don't count against the caps? I would say that this team would be better if we used that money to sign some of these over 23 year old prospects from Cuba that don't count against the international spending caps.


Good point, but it just points again to how the Twins operate. The Twins (especially under TR) basically refuse to participate in any player acquisition that requires bidding and/or isn't capped in some way.

Thank heavens the draft and most international signings are capped now (and that Bill Smith was more aggressive internationally) or the Twins might really be behind.

#16 Brandon

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Posted 24 October 2013 - 09:46 AM

There is not 1 signing over another that is going to make or break the future of this team. So i could care less that the Twins didn't win the last player contract as there will be others. I am more interested in the Cuban SS prospect that is looking to sign in the next few months than anyone else really. I think we have plenty of pitching prospects to where i think we will be able to put together a good staff from in a few years and we'll probably have a few more after the next draft. I wll be disappointed if we dont end up with at lease one type of prospect...

#17 kab21

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Posted 24 October 2013 - 10:30 AM

There is not 1 signing over another that is going to make or break the future of this team. So i could care less that the Twins didn't win the last player contract as there will be others. I am more interested in the Cuban SS prospect that is looking to sign in the next few months than anyone else really. I think we have plenty of pitching prospects to where i think we will be able to put together a good staff from in a few years and we'll probably have a few more after the next draft. I wll be disappointed if we dont end up with at lease one type of prospect...


Gurrerro already signed with the Dodgers. The Twins are reportedly interested in another Cuban SS (Almedys Dias) but he can't sign until February. They are also interested in cuban pitcher Despaigne. I'm a little optimistic that they sign a Cuban but I'm also prepared to be disappointed.

#18 nicksaviking

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Posted 24 October 2013 - 12:09 PM

Gurrerro already signed with the Dodgers. The Twins are reportedly interested in another Cuban SS (Almedys Dias) but he can't sign until February. They are also interested in cuban pitcher Despaigne. I'm a little optimistic that they sign a Cuban but I'm also prepared to be disappointed.


I assume he was talking about Dias, but I could be wrong. I would be disappointed if the Twins don't go after him hard.

I'm interested in Despaigne but I was also interested in Hinojosa until his workout. If Despaigne proves to be a hard throwing rotation staple, the Twins need to find away to get him. If he also turns out to be a bullpen arm with a 90 mph fastball like Hinojosa, I'm not going to worry about it. The baseball info on Despaigne is very limited. I do know he only struck out 98 batters in 143 innings in 2013, so that doesn't sound too promising.

Edited by nicksaviking, 24 October 2013 - 12:11 PM.