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The Doumit, Willingham trade challenge

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#21 Guest_USAFChief_*

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 10:39 AM

Are you in favor of keeping Willingham and Doumit on the team after 2014?


Potentally, yes. I'm definafely not a fan of watching Clete Thomas types accumulate ABs in 2014.

But that decision doesn't have to be made yet.

Basically I am in favor of waiting to make room for better players until such time as those better players exist.

I am also a "buy low, sell high" advocate, so getting rid of players who have peoven in the past to have value, just for the sake of getting rid of them, doesn't appeal to me.

#22 Shane Wahl

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 10:55 AM

Potentally, yes. I'm definafely not a fan of watching Clete Thomas types accumulate ABs in 2014.

But that decision doesn't have to be made yet.

Basically I am in favor of waiting to make room for better players until such time as those better players exist.

I am also a "buy low, sell high" advocate, so getting rid of players who have peoven in the past to have value, just for the sake of getting rid of them, doesn't appeal to me.


Well then I respect that, certainly. Considering them beyond 2014 is interesting to me. I do think that there has to be playing time for players to be able to force the oldsters out though.

And you don't need to tell me about Clete Thomas. You do NOT have to tell me about that debacle.

Now I honestly don't hate the idea of Parmelee (learn LF, damn it)-Hicks-Arcia with Pressly as the 4th OF and Herrmann as the 5th. There's DH room there to improve the defense (best defensive alignment is likely Pressly-Hicks-Herrmann). At least this would give more data on who should be around long term IF Willingham and/or Doumit are not going to be here in 2015.

#23 Shane Wahl

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 10:56 AM

I said some awful things about Clete. I don't think I take them back. Good guy with good defense, though.

#24 Shane Wahl

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 10:58 AM

I will say that I worry about Willingham and Doumit basically becoming AAAA types in 2014. Willingham not being respected as much anymore = those walks dropping big time. Then his value is very, very limited.

#25 Twins Twerp

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 11:12 AM

I don't think we could get anything for either player. No way will Doumit bring back anything. Wilingham has never really had any trade value; even after his 30+ homer season. We signed him for 3 years at 7 million and he wasn't a hot name then. Why would any team give up a young major leaguer or minor leaguer for him? The conversation makes me giggle a little bit. All of these "We need to trade this guy for a pitcher" is insanity. No **** we need pitching. No **** our lineup sucks, so no **** any GM would jump at an opportunity to trade bad players for good you pitching. Ain't...gonna...happen

#26 Alex

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 12:11 PM

Concur with Kab. I don't understand the obsession with getting everyone with any history of major league success off the team.


With both Willingham and Doumit's ideal position being DH and both of them being horrible in the field, I am definitely concerned about what keeping them both means for roster flexibility next season, especially the way Gardy uses veterans (though I appreciated that he benched Willingham in favor of Pinto, maybe its a sign of things to come?). If DH is their best position and they don't hit better than last season, well....

The roster crunch comes in for two reasons. They currently prevent the team from upgrading a poor hitting and poor defensive outfield via FA or trade (unless they are involved) and by midseason we could see Rosario OF, possibly Hicks, and --longshot-- Buxton.

That said, they do have time to move one or either of them before that happens, but I'm at the point where I'd like to see them sign an OF that has a better track record defensively and offensively. But yeah, they don't necessarily need to move one of them yet.

#27 gunnarthor

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 12:59 PM

I will say that I worry about Willingham and Doumit basically becoming AAAA types in 2014. Willingham not being respected as much anymore = those walks dropping big time. Then his value is very, very limited.


Actually, Willingham had only 10 fewer walks in about 35 fewer games this year. His iso on-base % was higher this year. I don't think he'll be the 2012 Willingham again but he could easily club like it was 2011 and that would be a valuable trade piece next season.

#28 Guest_USAFChief_*

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 01:10 PM

With both Willingham and Doumit's ideal position being DH and both of them being horrible in the field, I am definitely concerned about what keeping them both means for roster flexibility next season, especially the way Gardy uses veterans (though I appreciated that he benched Willingham in favor of Pinto, maybe its a sign of things to come?). If DH is their best position and they don't hit better than last season, well....

The roster crunch comes in for two reasons. They currently prevent the team from upgrading a poor hitting and poor defensive outfield via FA or trade (unless they are involved) and by midseason we could see Rosario OF, possibly Hicks, and --longshot-- Buxton.

That said, they do have time to move one or either of them before that happens, but I'm at the point where I'd like to see them sign an OF that has a better track record defensively and offensively. But yeah, they don't necessarily need to move one of them yet.


Since I'm one who doesn't care much about corner OF defense, my position on this is probably in the minority.

#29 YourHouseIsMyHouse

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 02:54 PM

This tread has nothing to do with debating whether or not these aging has-been players should NOT be traded. It is about them BEING TRADED in the offseason.

Now here are the parameters:

1. No sane NL team would want these two players, so we are restricting this search to the AL


Lots of restrictions, but I don't see why this you'd eliminate half the MLB teams with this. Willingham I understand a little, but as a prototypical moneyball player, I think he can contribute to any team that needs a righty. The Phillies were brave enough to try Delmon Young, so I'm sure they would be ok with Willingham. The Diamondbacks could really use him to replace Adam Eaton. He'd be a reasonable upgrade over Ludwick on the Reds. The Mets and Pirates also could use him too.

Not seeing any matches for Doumit in the NL and I'd agree he's basically a NL only guy. The Yankees and Blue Jays seem like they need a lot of help there, so maybe we could get them to donate something to us.

I'm not completely on board with trading Willingham because I'm not convinced anyone on this team could be an improvement at LF or DH. Trading him for scraps after one of his worst seasons just doesn't add up. All it would be is a payroll dump for the Pohlad's. I'd much rather see Josh out there than Clete Thomas or Alex Presley. There just aren't many outfielders at AAA or AA now that could replace him unless you convert Rosario back.

Doumit can leave for all I care. We have Mauer and Pinto who are both better and Herrmann isn't much worse than him. He sucks as a DH, so there goes that too. We'd be lucky to get what we got for Butera by trading him.

#30 rcfarmer

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 03:06 PM

Here is my "find"

Ismael Guillon, threw more wild pitches last year than he had candles on his birthday cake.
[TABLE="class: sortable stats_table, width: 1"]

[TH="class: tooltip sort_default_asc show_partial_when_sorting, bgcolor: #DADCDE, align: center"]Age[/TH]
[TH="class: tooltip sort_default_asc show_partial_when_sorting, bgcolor: #DADCDE, align: center"]Tm[/TH]
[TH="class: tooltip sort_default_asc, bgcolor: #DADCDE, align: center"]Lg[/TH]
[TH="class: tooltip sort_default_asc, bgcolor: #DADCDE, align: center"]Lev[/TH]
[TH="class: tooltip sort_default_asc, bgcolor: #DADCDE, align: center"]Aff[/TH]
[TH="class: tooltip, bgcolor: #DADCDE, align: center"]W[/TH]
[TH="class: tooltip, bgcolor: #DADCDE, align: center"]L[/TH]
[TH="class: tooltip hide_non_quals, bgcolor: #DADCDE, align: center"]W-L%[/TH]
[TH="class: tooltip sort_default_asc hide_non_quals, bgcolor: #DADCDE, align: center"]ERA[/TH]
[TH="class: tooltip, bgcolor: #DADCDE, align: center"]G[/TH]
[TH="class: tooltip, bgcolor: #DADCDE, align: center"]GS[/TH]
[TH="class: tooltip, bgcolor: #DADCDE, align: center"]GF[/TH]
[TH="class: tooltip, bgcolor: #DADCDE, align: center"]CG[/TH]
[TH="class: tooltip, bgcolor: #DADCDE, align: center"]SHO[/TH]
[TH="class: tooltip, bgcolor: #DADCDE, align: center"]SV[/TH]
[TH="class: tooltip, bgcolor: #DADCDE, align: center"]IP[/TH]
[TH="class: tooltip, bgcolor: #DADCDE, align: center"]H[/TH]
[TH="class: tooltip, bgcolor: #DADCDE, align: center"]R[/TH]
[TH="class: tooltip, bgcolor: #DADCDE, align: center"]ER[/TH]
[TH="class: tooltip, bgcolor: #DADCDE, align: center"]HR[/TH]
[TH="class: tooltip, bgcolor: #DADCDE, align: center"]BB[/TH]
[TH="class: tooltip, bgcolor: #DADCDE, align: center"]IBB[/TH]
[TH="class: tooltip, bgcolor: #DADCDE, align: center"]SO[/TH]
[TH="class: tooltip, bgcolor: #DADCDE, align: center"]HBP[/TH]
[TH="class: tooltip, bgcolor: #DADCDE, align: center"]BK[/TH]
[TH="class: tooltip, bgcolor: #DADCDE, align: center"]WP[/TH]
[TH="class: tooltip, bgcolor: #DADCDE, align: center"]BF[/TH]
[TH="class: tooltip sort_default_asc hide_non_quals, bgcolor: #DADCDE, align: center"]WHIP[/TH]
[TH="class: tooltip sort_default_asc hide_non_quals, bgcolor: #DADCDE, align: center"]H/9[/TH]
[TH="class: tooltip sort_default_asc hide_non_quals, bgcolor: #DADCDE, align: center"]HR/9[/TH]
[TH="class: tooltip sort_default_asc hide_non_quals, bgcolor: #DADCDE, align: center"]BB/9[/TH]
[TH="class: tooltip hide_non_quals, bgcolor: #DADCDE, align: center"]SO/9[/TH]
[TH="class: tooltip hide_non_quals, bgcolor: #DADCDE, align: center"]SO/BB[/TH]

[TR="class: full"]
2010
[TD="align: right"]18[/TD]
Reds
ARIZ
Rk
CIN
[TD="align: right"]3[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]3[/TD]
[TD="align: right"].500[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]3.32[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]12[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]10[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]1[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]0[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]0[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]0[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]57.0[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]39[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]26[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]21[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]1[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]23[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]0[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]73[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]0[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]0[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]6[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]227[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]1.088[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]6.2[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]0.2[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]3.6[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]11.5[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]3.17[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: full"]
2011
[TD="align: right"]19[/TD]
Billings
PION
Rk
CIN
[TD="align: right"]3[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]6[/TD]
[TD="align: right"].333[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]6.57[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]15[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]15[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]0[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]0[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]0[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]0[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]63.0[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]78[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]57[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]46[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]11[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]46[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]0[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]61[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]4[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]1[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]13[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]308[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]1.968[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]11.1[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]1.6[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]6.6[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]8.7[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]1.33[/TD]
[/TR]

2012
[TD="align: right"]20[/TD]
2 Teams
2 Lgs
Rk-A
CIN
[TD="align: right"]6[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]1[/TD]
[TD="align: right"].857[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]2.38[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]15[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]14[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]0[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]0[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]0[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]0[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]75.2[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]61[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]24[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]20[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]3[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]31[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]0[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]90[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]2[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]2[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]11[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]311[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]1.216[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]7.3[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]0.4[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]3.7[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]10.7[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]2.90[/TD]

[TR="class: partial_table hl, bgcolor: #FFFFAA !important"]
2012
[TD="align: right"]20[/TD]
Billings
PION
Rk
CIN
[TD="align: right"]4[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]1[/TD]
[TD="align: right"].800[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]2.29[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]11[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]10[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]0[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]0[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]0[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]0[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]51.0[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]39[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]16[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]13[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]1[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]24[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]0[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]63[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]2[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]1[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]9[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]213[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]1.235[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]6.9[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]0.2[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]4.2[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]11.1[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]2.63[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: partial_table"]
2012
[TD="align: right"]20[/TD]
Dayton
MIDW
A
CIN
[TD="align: right"]2[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]0[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]1.000[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]2.55[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]4[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]4[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]0[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]0[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]0[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]0[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]24.2[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]22[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]8[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]7[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]2[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]7[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]0[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]27[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]0[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]1[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]2[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]98[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]1.176[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]8.0[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]0.7[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]2.6[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]9.9[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]3.86[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="class: full"]
2013
[TD="align: right"]21[/TD]
Dayton
MIDW
A
CIN
[TD="align: right"]7[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]8[/TD]
[TD="align: right"].467[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]4.75[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]27[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]26[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]0[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]0[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]0[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]0[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]121.1[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]95[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]72[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]64[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]14[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]95[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]0[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]134[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]1[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]1[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]26[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]539[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]1.566[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]7.0[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]1.0[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]7.0[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]9.9[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]1.41[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]


I know he is national league but he has a live arm.

#31 Spicoli

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 03:10 PM

Honestly they wont get anything for either of them. Maybe a prospect that will never see the MLB and if they do it will be for a pinch hit.

#32 AlwaysinModeration

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 03:35 PM

Potentally, yes. I'm definafely not a fan of watching Clete Thomas types accumulate ABs in 2014.

But that decision doesn't have to be made yet.

Basically I am in favor of waiting to make room for better players until such time as those better players exist.

I am also a "buy low, sell high" advocate, so getting rid of players who have peoven in the past to have value, just for the sake of getting rid of them, doesn't appeal to me.


Is the Twins' FO a "buy low, sell high" advocate?

#33 Kwak

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 04:05 PM

I fall into the group that bellylaughs at the idea these two could be traded--unless it was for someone worse! The Twins picking-up all salary but rookie minimum would be a prerequisite--and for what? Good teams already have guys who do what these two do and bad teams can't use them anyway.

Doumit and Willingham taking ABs away?--from whom? Those that we saw from August didn't convince me they "earned" any more ABs than these two.

#34 iastfan112

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 04:43 PM

Willingham is poor defensively but he's not so bad as to be an AL only player. The fact that he only had a .700 OPS last year really means his value is trivial though, he's the one of the two I'd hold on to and hope for a rebound to close to his career numbers. If that were to happen he'd have more value at midseason anyways.

#35 jokin

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 05:12 PM

Well then I respect that, certainly. Considering them beyond 2014 is interesting to me. I do think that there has to be playing time for players to be able to force the oldsters out though.

And you don't need to tell me about Clete Thomas. You do NOT have to tell me about that debacle.

Now I honestly don't hate the idea of Parmelee (learn LF, damn it)-Hicks-Arcia with Pressly as the 4th OF and Herrmann as the 5th. There's DH room there to improve the defense (best defensive alignment is likely Pressly-Hicks-Herrmann). At least this would give more data on who should be around long term IF Willingham and/or Doumit are not going to be here in 2015.


Either one too many "Pres-lees" on this roster or I just wasn't aware that Ryan Pressly was multi-talented.....:o

#36 ashburyjohn

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 05:33 PM

Wilingham has never really had any trade value; even after his 30+ homer season. We signed him for 3 years at 7 million and he wasn't a hot name then.


The Hammer closed the 2012 season hurt, and given his injury history I'd have been surprised if fellow GMs had been receptive if Ryan brought the name up in conversation during the off-season.

#37 Wookiee of the Year

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 08:21 PM

I don't care if you break the rules, of course. I wasn't referring to pitchers in the majors. I like the names actually mentioned, including Espinosa.

Yeah, I figured you wouldn't mind too much, or I wouldn't have bothered to post.

It's a pretty good exercise--you do have to wonder if some of these guys could be had, even with Doumit's limited value, considering how unlikely the are to develop.

Rcfarmer, whose system is Ismael Guillon in? I'm guessing the Reds', given it's the name of his Rookie Ball team?

#38 kab21

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 09:15 PM

Well then I respect that, certainly. Considering them beyond 2014 is interesting to me. I do think that there has to be playing time for players to be able to force the oldsters out though.

And you don't need to tell me about Clete Thomas. You do NOT have to tell me about that debacle.

Now I honestly don't hate the idea of Parmelee (learn LF, damn it)-Hicks-Arcia with Pressly as the 4th OF and Herrmann as the 5th. There's DH room there to improve the defense (best defensive alignment is likely Pressly-Hicks-Herrmann). At least this would give more data on who should be around long term IF Willingham and/or Doumit are not going to be here in 2015.


If it's me I'm sending Arcia and Hicks to AAA for at least 2 months. they completely fell apart at the end of the season.

That leaves you with Mastro/Pressley/Parmelee as your OF starters and probably Colabello as your starting DH. Herrmann is not an MLB hitter imo and he shouldn't enter into any plans other than backup catcher with positional flexibility. I also have no idea how Parmalee can be considered as Plan A in the starting OF. He has done nothing in 2 seasons to deserve that.

There is absolutely no reason to dump Willingham so you can start the season with that mess unless you actually get something decent back for him. By the trade deadline I'm hoping that Hicks, Arcia, Buxton and Vargas are already up or are getting close.

Doumit I don't care much about since he shouldn't be a starting DH and he shouldn't be behind the plate much. At the same time I would have serious reservations starting the season with two rookies behind the plate (if Mauer moves to 1B). At that point you are one injury or one major disappointment away from a Danny Lehman type getting some serious playing time. We will be wishing that we had Doumit at that point.

#39 stringer bell

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 09:16 PM

The 2012 versions of those guys had some value. The graph doesn't always go straight down (two ex-Twins, Torii and Cuddy, are evidence of that). Both are offense-first guys and if they don't hit, their value is next to nothing. I kind of expect one or both guys to have a good season in their walk year. Perhaps the Twins will get themselves something of value, buts the chances aren't great.

#40 Guest_USAFChief_*

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Posted 10 October 2013 - 10:04 PM

The 2012 versions of those guys had some value. The graph doesn't always go straight down.

+1.