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Government Shutdown and the Affordable Care Act

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#21 biggentleben

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Posted 04 October 2013 - 02:22 PM

My biggest worry is the potentially adverse effects on a still shaky economy. We could see some companies react to this (to save their own business model) in ways that dramatically shift employment for the worse.


I will say that I was offered a job last week that I found out would be a personal insurance policy through ACA for health insurance rather than the group insurance I currently have. With my eye history and current weight (take my BP, cholesterol, etc. and I'm rated very well, but the weight number is off of certain scales and is a red flag), my individual policy would have cost more than the per-month stipend they were offering. I ended up turning down the job (though I utilized it to get a promotion and raise at the current job, so it worked very well), but ACA certainly in the short-term had a drastic effect on my perception of that job.

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#22 biggentleben

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Posted 04 October 2013 - 02:45 PM

My understanding is that Jesus' message was personal. Only you can repent and save yourself with the grace of God. One has a personal obligation to serve God and those who cannot help themselves. One has the obligation to be charitable with one's own blessings (not just money), but one does NOT have the obligation to be charitable with others blessings. In fact, this is immoral.


If we were to break down Christianity to Christ, then the faith is incredibly failing in its care for one another. Christ's greatest command was to love the Lord your God with all your heart, your soul, and your mind. His second was to love your neighbor as yourself. An Acts 2 church, the ORIGINAL Christian church would be seen as a cult now for its reliance on the members to use all possessions for the betterment of the church and the ministry of Christ. The average church member, according to the last Gallop poll I've read, gives to ALL charities (not just their church, but all charities) at a 1.8% giving rate. The average non-church member gives at a 1.9% rate. In general, our society emphasizes personal wealth over societal concerns, expecting the taxes taken from our paychecks to take care of the poor and needy, and Christians and non-Christians subscribe to this at the same level.

I agree if we were living life as Christ's hands and feet, this wouldn't be needed because we would all be helping our poor and widows, but that's not the world that we live in, and seeing that, we need to work with the government system we have.

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#23 glunn

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Posted 04 October 2013 - 06:17 PM

Uh, insurance companies can only make 15% a year from now on......the costs are not going up because of insurance companies, you might want to look at what is driving costs.


There was a great article in Time Magazine a few months ago -- I think the author was Steven Brill -- where he explained why hospitals can get away with charging $50 for something that costs them less than $1. I agree that this is worth looking at.

#24 glunn

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Posted 04 October 2013 - 06:27 PM

1. "I wish someone could explain to me how a Christian could oppose the Affordable Care Act."

This is your opening line. You obviously think Christians have an obligation to support the ACA, no?

This is only about beliefs and what you think Christianity teaches Christians about hiring their government to compel of its citizens.

You realize that of the uninsured in the country, only a small percentage was wanting but unable to afford/be insurable, right? The vast majority do not have insurance by choice and many will pay the fine (tax*) which will be cheaper than purchasing the bronze plan.

Furthermore,


2. Don't we already have medicaid?


Last, you should go to the ACA enrollment Facebook page and read the complaints. Even the bronze plan is still unaffordable for many. They are shocked, thinking they would qualify for a subsidy and now realizing that it's not in their budget.

My insurance premiums and deductible are going up dramatically because of the ACA -- as are most peoples'.

My understanding is that Jesus' message was personal. Only you can repent and save yourself with the grace of God. One has a personal obligation to serve God and those who cannot help themselves. One has the obligation to be charitable with one's own blessings (not just money), but one does NOT have the obligation to be charitable with others blessings. In fact, this is immoral.


This is a job killer, wage reducer, full-time to less than 30 hour work week, 2.6 trillion to the debt increasing over the next ten years unpopular law; which also is full of exceptions and waivers, making the application of the law different from what was originally passed and unequal.

One could go on and on, but no, I don't think Jesus has the choirs in Heaven singing gilded hymns.


I am not arguing that Christians have an obligation to believe anything -- I am merely asking how they can oppose something that seems so consistent with the teachings of the New Testament without proposing something better to help poor people get health care.

That said, please explain why you think this will be such a disaster considering how it has worked in Massachusetts. And why should I have to pay a dime to cover the emergency room visits of people who can afford insurance but choose not to pay for it?

#25 Frozented9

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Posted 04 October 2013 - 08:37 PM

Just got my insurance bill for next year went down $10 a month.

#26 ChiTownTwinsFan

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Posted 04 October 2013 - 08:49 PM

A friend of mine's went from $550/mo to $371/mo.

#27 TheLeviathan

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Posted 04 October 2013 - 09:00 PM

A friend of mine's went from $550/mo to $371/mo.


That's good, the question is - how much is this going to impact people 25-35 who are least likely to need health insurance, already strapped with much higher student loans than previous generations, and are likely not yet on a true career path but trying to make ends meet? Or the people working 2 or 3 jobs, one of which for benefits?

This law is largely funded off of their backs, I have serious reservations about how that's going to play out economically. Ben's example above works fairly well for that.

#28 Hornhead

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Posted 05 October 2013 - 09:42 AM

Levi beat me to the punch. I could just as easily ask how a Christian could support a bill that will take from the young and often struggling. I fail to find the morality in running up bills for the next generation to pay. Hopefully, the youth seduced by messages of compassion, fairness, etc. will realize it’s coming out of their wallets, assuming they enjoy the good fortune if earning a decent living.

#29 Mr. Brooks

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Posted 05 October 2013 - 09:57 AM

Well, I won't venture into the religious aspects of the discussion.
But I will say that the Republicans are being childish.
You don't have to like the law, but the process should be respected.
The law was passed by Congress.
It was upheld by the Supreme Court.
It was upheld by the People when they overwhelmingly re elected President Obama.

Again, people don't have to like the law, that is okay.
But, respect the process, don't throw a tantrum like a little kid just because you didn't get your way.

#30 Mr. Brooks

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Posted 05 October 2013 - 10:02 AM

1. "I wish someone could explain to me how a Christian could oppose the Affordable Care Act."

This is your opening line. You obviously think Christians have an obligation to support the ACA, no?

This is only about beliefs and what you think Christianity teaches Christians about hiring their government to compel of its citizens.

You realize that of the uninsured in the country, only a small percentage was wanting but unable to afford/be insurable, right? The vast majority do not have insurance by choice and many will pay the fine (tax*) which will be cheaper than purchasing the bronze plan.

Furthermore,


2. Don't we already have medicaid?


Last, you should go to the ACA enrollment Facebook page and read the complaints. Even the bronze plan is still unaffordable for many. They are shocked, thinking they would qualify for a subsidy and now realizing that it's not in their budget.

My insurance premiums and deductible are going up dramatically because of the ACA -- as are most peoples'.

My understanding is that Jesus' message was personal. Only you can repent and save yourself with the grace of God. One has a personal obligation to serve God and those who cannot help themselves. One has the obligation to be charitable with one's own blessings (not just money), but one does NOT have the obligation to be charitable with others blessings. In fact, this is immoral.


This is a job killer, wage reducer, full-time to less than 30 hour work week, 2.6 trillion to the debt increasing over the next ten years unpopular law; which also is full of exceptions and waivers, making the application of the law different from what was originally passed and unequal.

One could go on and on, but no, I don't think Jesus has the choirs in Heaven singing gilded hymns.


And that was a huge part of the problem.
Young people who CAN afford insurance, but selfishly go without it, then shift the burden to the rest of us when something catastrophic happens and they wind up in the ER, ICU or life support with a 500k medical bill that they will never pay.
You talk about the fairness of forcing people who don't want insurance to buy it. Well, how fair is it that people who can afford insurance would rather pass the cost on to everyone else when something terrible happens?

#31 Mr. Brooks

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Posted 05 October 2013 - 10:04 AM

One final thing, did anyone else notice the comical irony of Ted Cruz reading Green Eggs and Ham during his marathon tantrum?
You could basically replace the words "Green Eggs and Ham" with "Obamacare", and it would have summed up quite well certain people's stubborn rejection of something that we simply do not KNOW for sure will be a good or bad thing, long term.

Edited by Mr. Brooks, 05 October 2013 - 10:14 AM.


#32 Mr. Brooks

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Posted 05 October 2013 - 10:17 AM

[FONT=Times New Roman]Do you like [/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman]Obamacare? [/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman]I do not like it,[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman]Sam-I-am.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman]I do not like[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman]Obamacare.[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman]Would you like it [/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman]Here or there?[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman]I would not like it [/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman]here or there.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman]I would not like it [/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman]anywhere.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman]I do not like [/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman]Obamacare.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman]I do not like it,[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman]Sam-I-am[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman]Would you like it[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman]in a house?[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman]Would you like it[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman]with a mouse?[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman]I do not like it[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman]in a house.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman]I do not like it [/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman]with a mouse.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman]I do not like it[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman]here or there.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman]I do not like it[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman]anywhere.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman]I do not like Obamacare.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman]I do not like it, Sam-I-am.[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman]Would you try it[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman]in a box?[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman]Would you try it[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman]with a fox?[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman]Not in a box.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman]Not with a fox.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman]Not in a house.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman]Not with a mouse.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman]I would not try it here or there.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman]I would not try it anywhere.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman]I would not try Obamacare.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman]I do not like it, Sam-I-am.[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman]Would you? Could you?[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman]in a car?[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman]Try it! Try it![/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman]Here it is.[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman]I woould not ,[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman]could not,[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman]in a car[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman]You may like it.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman]You will see.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman]You may like it[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman]in a tree?[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman]not in a tree.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman]I would not, could not in a tree.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman]Not in a car! You let me be.[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman]I do not like it in a box.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman]I do not like it with a fox[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman]I do not like it in a house[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman]I do mot like it with a mouse[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman]I do not like it here or there.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman]I do not like it anywhere.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman]I do not like Obamacare.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman]I do not like it Sam-I-am.[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman]A train! A train![/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman]A train! A train![/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman]Could you, would you[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman]on a train?[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman]Not on a train! Not in a tree![/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman]Not in a car! Sam! Let me be![/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman]I would not, could not, in a box.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman]I could not, would not, with a fox.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman]I will not try it with a mouse[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman]I will not try it in a house.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman]I will not try it here or there.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman]I will not try it anywhere.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman]I do not like it, Sam-I-am.[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman]Say![/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman]In the dark?[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman]Here in the dark![/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman]Would you, could you, in the dark?[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman]I would not, could not,[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman]in the dark.[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman]Would you, could you,[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman]in the rain?[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman]I would not, could not, in the rain.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman]Not in the dark. Not on a train,[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman]Not in a car, Not in a tree.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman]I do not like it, Sam, you see.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman]Not in a house. Not in a box.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman]Not with a mouse. Not with a fox.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman]I will not try it here or there.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman]I do not like it anywhere![/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman]You do not like [/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman]Obamacare?[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman]I do not [/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman]like it,[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman]Sam-I-am.[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman]Could you, would you,[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman]with a goat?[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman]I would not,[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman]could not.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman]with a goat![/FONT]

#33 Mr. Brooks

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Posted 05 October 2013 - 10:18 AM

[FONT=Times New Roman]Would you, could you,[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman]on a boat?[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman]I could not, would not, on a boat.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman]I will not, will not, with a goat.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman]I will not try it in the rain.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman]I will not try it on a train.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman]Not in the dark! Not in a tree![/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman]Not in a car! You let me be![/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman]I do not like it in a box.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman]I do not like it with a fox.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman]I will not try it in a house.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman]I do not like it with a mouse.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman]I do not like it here or there.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman]I do not like it ANYWHERE![/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman]I do not like [/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman]Obamacare![/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman]I do not like it,[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman]Sam-I-am.[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman]You do not like it.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman]SO you say.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman]Try it! Try it![/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman]And you may.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman]Try it and you may I say.[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman]Sam![/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman]If you will let me be,[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman]I will try it.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman]You will see.[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman]Say![/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman]I like Obamacare![/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman]I do!! I like it, Sam-I-am![/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman]And I would try it in a boat![/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman]And I would try it with a goat...[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman]And I will try it in the rain.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman]And in the dark. And on a train.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman]And in a car. And in a tree.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman]It is so good so good you see![/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman]So I will try it in a box.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman]And I will try it with a fox.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman]And I will try it in a house.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman]And I will try it with a mouse.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman]And I will try it here and there.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman]Say! I will try it ANHYWHERE![/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman]I do so like [/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman]Obamacare![/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman]Thank you![/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman]Thank you,[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman]Sam-I-am[/FONT]

#34 Hornhead

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Posted 05 October 2013 - 11:37 AM

And that was a huge part of the problem.
Young people who CAN afford insurance, but selfishly go without it, then shift the burden to the rest of us when something catastrophic happens and they wind up in the ER, ICU or life support with a 500k medical bill that they will never pay.
You talk about the fairness of forcing people who don't want insurance to buy it. Well, how fair is it that people who can afford insurance would rather pass the cost on to everyone else when something terrible happens?

If that is the huge concern, where was the mandate that folks carry catastrophic insurance rather than a plan they may not be able to afford or even want? That approach suffers from the flaw of not enough young subsidizing the old, similar to Social Security. We see how well that scheme is working out.

#35 PseudoSABR

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Posted 05 October 2013 - 01:19 PM

This article by Russel Korobkin is rather illuminating.

[...]In negotiation, the crazy person wins.

If your counterpart is willing to act in a way that harms both sides rather than making any concessions, you are outflanked. As a rational individual, you should give in, because doing so will make you better off than you otherwise would be, even though your concession will reward your irrational, uncooperative and completely maddening counterpart. [...]


#36 Shane Wahl

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Posted 05 October 2013 - 03:33 PM

I just received an infraction for saying "Also, George W. Bush was not a legitimate authority" in a Twins thread, even though it was both a joke and a rather uncontroversial example of the distinction between "authority vs. legitimate authority" so I am not sure what I can get away with here, but I would actually--perhaps surprisingly--say that I would imagine Christians and all those supposedly with a deep sense of compassion would want rather rampant and deep change with how healthcare is administered in America. It's a joke and a mess and we still cannot provide coverage for every human being. Somehow. I don't view the ACA as a significantly great improvement. Only a single-payer, not-for-profit system is going to be a significantly great improvement.

I do know that if I still an adjunct (though I could be thus forced into this decision again next fall), I would have to quit teaching or work for two or more different colleges. At my particular community college, adjuncts teaching 5 classes a semester make about $7,400 after taxes. That's an abomination, but just imagine being limited to only three classes because the college cannot afford benefits?

#37 TheLeviathan

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Posted 05 October 2013 - 04:09 PM

Good post Shane and sympathies on the infraction, I thought it was clearly tongue in cheek.

#38 Shane Wahl

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Posted 05 October 2013 - 04:57 PM

Of course the ACA should have nothing to do with this shutdown. It's only because of one part of one party in one house of Congress that this is even occurring. Yet, it amazes that two things dominate most of the talk about the GS in the mainstream media:

1. That both parties are to blame for this, and
2. That this is actually the time to debate the merits of Obamacare

Both of those two things are blatantly false.

#39 Hornhead

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Posted 05 October 2013 - 05:31 PM

This article by Russel Korobkin is rather illuminating.


The tried and true "crazy person" argument. Show me the crazy. Asking Congress to live by the law as originally written until Obama unilaterally exempted them? Removing a tax on medical devices that actually improve healthcare? Funny how simply enrolling in Obamacare has been an ordeal despite ample time to prepare and less online traffic than anticipated. A taste of the incapable bureaucracy come.

And if the Left is so weary of appeasement, why the concessions to some of the most brutal thugs in the world? Obama reached out to the new leader of Iran for discussion but won't afford the same courtesy to democratically elected leaders in his own country. I find that far more illuminating than this silly article.

#40 ThePuck

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Posted 05 October 2013 - 08:15 PM

Good post Shane and sympathies on the infraction, I thought it was clearly tongue in cheek.


It was clearly tongue in cheek.
Just remember: You put the lime IN the coconut. Only THEN, can you drink it all up.