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Article: Morneau Trade Pits Head Versus Heart

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#1 John Bonnes

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Posted 31 August 2013 - 11:18 PM

You can view the page at http://twinsdaily.co...ead-Verus-Heart

#2 Fanatic Jack

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Posted 01 September 2013 - 01:13 AM

Nice article!! Truth is this organization is doomed as long as GM Terry Ryan is in charge! Nobody sang the praises of Terry Ryan higher than me. I debated everybody while Bill Smith was in the GM chair that we just needed to bring back the genius and things would get back to normal in Twins Territory. I have no problem admitting how wrong I was. There is no doubt in my mind that Ryan is responsible for all those bad years (2007-2011) while Bill Smith was in charge. Not only did Ryan recommend Smith for the job, but probably had the final say in most trades that took place. Young, Santana, Hardy, and Ramos just to name a few. These deals basically transformed the Twins entire organization. I'm convinced now that Smith wanted to spend money to re-sign Cuddyer, Kubel, and Nathan after 2011. He was replaced with somebody who would be conservative at best and in the process make the Pohlad family millions while at Target Field.

What has Ryan done to improve this organization. As of today absolutely nothing!! He signed Carroll, Doumit, and Willingham in his first year back. He waited too long to deal Liriano and was essentially fleeced by Kenny Williams and company. He just gave Carroll away and refused to trade Morneau and Willingham at their peak value. I understand the Twins had to trade Morneau because they were not going to re-sign him. However, once again why not last winter? The reason why is because Ryan thought he was smarter than everyone else. He thought Willingham and Morneau would have monster first half's and he would unload them for top notch prospects. He traded Morneau for absolutely nothing and refused to re-sign him for less. He refused to trade Willingham last year and demanded the Orioles top pitching prospect yesterday. He instead chose to hold on to a 35 year old, injury prone, DH at best, player who is owed $7 million next season. Not to mention Willingham will be taking away at bats from younger players. I guess if it were me, Willingham would have been dealt for nothing and Morneau would have at the very least stayed until the end of the year. However, there is no loyalty in MLB and Morneau took the path well traveled by former Twins superstars. It's really unfortunate that every star player in the last 15-20 players has been traded except for the wonderful singles hitter who is injured yet again. The Twins front office keeps talking about Sano & Buxton. Fans need to remember if they become stars, they will be traded away to save money just like every other big name to come through this town. Last winter every writer kept saying "Why would any good free agent pitcher want to come here when they can pitch for a contender." I guess they were in fact right!! However, the latest Ryan embarrassment is not going to help attract anybody either. The Twins Way used to be respected and admired around MLB, but now it has turned into a punchline. Well Done Terry Ryan!!

Edited by Fanatic Jack, 01 September 2013 - 01:22 AM.


#3 Oldgoat_MN

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Posted 01 September 2013 - 01:30 AM

Nice article John. Thank you.

I am actually kind of happy for Justin. I am suddenly a Pirates fan. They have a very good team and Justin will have an opportunity to play with McCutchen, one of the most exciting players in the game.

Some are saying there is a very good chance they will bring Justin back. Unless Parmelee or Colabello step up that might be a really good idea.
Who knows?

For now, go Justin! Go Pirates!

#4 tjsyam921

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Posted 01 September 2013 - 01:59 AM

Justin is probably the only Twins player in the last few years that I'd like to shake hands with and thank him for his time. I thought it would be easy to let him go but now that its over it seems like a waste. Seems like we got nothing in return.
Thank you Justin! Lots of memories that i wont soon forget!

#5 Willihammer

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Posted 01 September 2013 - 05:43 AM

This argument that "something is better than nothing," I'm not sold. Its like poker. You know the guy asking to color down his only $100 chip for five $20 chips? That guy is losing. I don't think baseball is a lot different. Give up 1 player and receive multiple players in return, and there is a good chance that you're only watering down your roster, and losing.


More 1:1 player trades, a la Span. Bundle guys with cash if it sweetens the deal, a la Pierzynski. If you can't color up, then just keep the guy. The Twins could have offered Morneau an extension like he asked for. I'd rather play that lottery than these 24-30 year olds with no MLB track record. At the very least, it doesn't clutter your roster as much.

#6 Sconnie

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Posted 01 September 2013 - 06:30 AM

Good Article John. I also wonder if this is a part of the plan to blow the team up. Go young for 2014, then find the right veteran pieces for a 2015 push into respectability. I will miss Justin Morneau for all of the nostalgic reasons, and I wish Justin well.

#7 scottsilvi

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Posted 01 September 2013 - 06:34 AM

@Fanatic Jack ... you seemed to be arguing both sides of the debate there. On one hand the twins are mega cheap and concerned only with money. On the other hand, he chose to "hold on to a 35 year old[COLOR=#3E3E3E], injury prone, DH at best, player who is owed $7 million next season."

If the intent was to actually slash salary, don't you think he would have handed over Willingham for a bag of balls?

Until this organization can either develop front-line starters, or is willing to put out some money for them, we're doomed to mediocrity anyway (and yes, getting swept by the Yankees come playoff time is mediocrity). [/COLOR]

#8 Brandon

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Posted 01 September 2013 - 06:40 AM

I am going to give Terry Ryan the benefit of the doubt on the budget thing till I see what he does when we are eminently competitive again. I am not convinced the 2 million or so would get us a much better prospect, as I am sure Pittsburg wants to hoard as much talent as they can. Right now we have few contracts burdening the team and a wave of talent coming. The team will need complimentary pieces. If he goes all cheap then, I will have a problem. But one area Geek, that TR can spend money on is international free agents. There is a Japanese pitcher and a Cuban SS that the Twins are linked to. I hope to see at least 1 of them signed by us.

With the draft being more about scouting then dollars for that competitive edge then having TR around is going to be huge as he manages his scouts and drafting philosophy's well. Target Field was never meant to make the Twins big spenders and with Teams revenue's going up with the new TV contract, players are going to get more expensive so we still need some restraint.

#9 Dman

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Posted 01 September 2013 - 06:53 AM

I have had some of the same questions you cited in the article. Many people on the boards have been waiting for TR to prove he will spend some money especially on pitching. We all want to believe TR has a plan and will open the wallet at the right time for the right guy. It seems like that time should be close as many of our prospects should be ready for MLB by 2015. He needs to get things in place especially pitching soon or all his work is for nothing.

#10 Roaddog

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Posted 01 September 2013 - 07:09 AM

I dont think there was any market for Morneau last winter. Heck, there wasnt a huge market for him at the end of July.

#11 Guest_USAFChief_*

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Posted 01 September 2013 - 07:17 AM

I can't speak for anyone else, but it has been apparent to me for some time now that the bottom line is more important to the Twins than the win column.

I understand that ultimately, the Twins are a business, but the focus on profit still rubs me the wrong way. Not only does it seem to me somewhat morally bankrupt, considering we pay for their operating facility, but ultimately it seems shortsighted in a business sense too. They risk serious loss of revenue as the newness of TF wears off and revenues return to being driven by the product on the field.

#12 Shane Wahl

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Posted 01 September 2013 - 07:58 AM

Thinking about the Twins being not willing to pay Morneau's salary sends me into conniption fits. It's just crazy, and I agree with the sentiment, John. If the PTBNL is not a Pirates top 20 prospect, I will be very disappointed in this trade. $2.3 million is about the right amount for a decent prospect.

#13 Shane Wahl

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Posted 01 September 2013 - 08:05 AM

oooppppsssss, didn't see the PTBNL was already named. Well, it isn't a good return at all then. A 27-year-old reliever to come in and serve as a Burton replacement isn't terrible given the money involved, but Dakota Watts is not that far removed from this and he is a year+ younger.

#14 Shane Wahl

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Posted 01 September 2013 - 08:11 AM

Though I should say that the problem with the trade isn't Welker, it's Pressley. There are so many other players in the Pirates org. that are worthwhile to take a look at. TWO fill-in players, only one of which is really going to be deserving of any MLB time is not good.

#15 Lonestar

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Posted 01 September 2013 - 08:14 AM

And my heart can't help but wonder if the Twins were more willing to eat that money - money which they certainly had in their budget already - what they could have received in return.

It seems like your heart is very much in synch with your head.

My head and heart are in agreement. This is the same Terry Ryan who thought his greatest trade was Scott Erickson. Not a good thing.

I don't see a master plan.

#16 Winston Smith

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Posted 01 September 2013 - 08:37 AM

"As a fan, it feels like the money is more important than the product. It feels like my favorite team's GM is more proud of the cash he saves ownership than the team he puts on the field. And it feels like trading away Justin Morneau was more about saving a few million dollars than trying to build for the future."

BINGO +++++++

#17 mike wants wins

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Posted 01 September 2013 - 08:39 AM

And Justin now saying he actually feels excited again.....I wonder if Ryan even cares about how bad they are right now. There is no evidence he does. And yes, it certainly appears that money is more important than anything else, but apparently it is lazy to say that.....

I'm happy for Justin, I would be happy for anyone that gets out from under this awful team, frankly.

I find it odd they are all excited about a fungible middle reliever, given the quality of their MLB and AAA pitchers, they are flush with those already. Mediocre/bad starters turn into decent middle relievers. All they got here is two older players to clog the 40 man roster.

This is how I feel, and there is no right or wrong here, it is ok if others feel as if Ryan and the Pohlads care.

#18 JB_Iowa

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Posted 01 September 2013 - 08:44 AM

The only master plan I can see is maximizing profits. Finding that area where they win enough to keep the b*tts in the seats (and have 1 or 2 players whose jerseys sell well, etc). while keeping payroll and other costs as low as possible.

That's the end game. Being good enough to keep the profits rolling in but not being willing to take enough risks to produce a team that can win more than the division.

Some things never change.

#19 jorgenswest

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Posted 01 September 2013 - 08:48 AM

Is it a correct assumption that the Pirates would have happily given up a good prospect in return for 2 million? That doesn't make baseball sense. Their front office know the cost of developing and acquiring a good prospect.

#20 TheLeviathan

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Posted 01 September 2013 - 08:50 AM

Is it a correct assumption that the Pirates would have happily given up a good prospect in return for 2 million? That doesn't make baseball sense. Their front office know the cost of developing and acquiring a good prospect.


Maybe not a good one, how about a better one?

I think this was the best move for all parties, hopefully Morneau comes back next year.

#21 mike wants wins

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Posted 01 September 2013 - 08:50 AM

We don't know either way, what we can be pretty sure of is that Ryan was not willing to eat the salary anyway, so it does not matter what teams would have given up. We have over a decade of evidence to support that conclusion, and numerous quotes (including from the manager) that money was an issue. Some people choose to believe that isn't true, others trust that Gardy and the media (who love Ryan, so why would they lie) are telling the truth, money was an issue, and the Twins would not eat any.
Lighten up Francis....

#22 OldManWinter

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Posted 01 September 2013 - 09:18 AM

If The Twins Did Not Want Mourneau Now, Why Would The Want Him Next Winter?

#23 jimbo92107

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Posted 01 September 2013 - 09:19 AM

I hope Justin Morneau goes on a legendary hitting streak, drives the Pirates into the World Series, then wins it for them. Get after it, Justin!

#24 LastOnePicked

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Posted 01 September 2013 - 09:34 AM

I recall hitting a point in the late 90's when I was just done with this team. I completely walked away for about four or five years. I think I'm there again.

I'm done with this organization. They have no vision, no leadership, no guts and no heart. Their superstar prospects are going to be great someday, but only after they've left this organization safely behind. Ryan continues to mislead fans, all while serving ownership loyally and preserving the organization's broken structures. He isn't part of the solution, and that should be clear to everyone now.

I'm mad. I'm hurt. I'm done. I hope this team faces some serious challenges from the remaining fans, and I hope Target Field will soon sit as empty as the hearts and minds of its leadership. Goodbye, Minnesota Twins. I'll be pulling for a future sale of the team, and for better days to come along ... bit I'll be pulling from a distance.

#25 jay

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Posted 01 September 2013 - 09:34 AM

We don't know either way, what we can be pretty sure of is that Ryan was not willing to eat the salary anyway, so it does not matter what teams would have given up. We have over a decade of evidence to support that conclusion, and numerous quotes (including from the manager) that money was an issue. Some people choose to believe that isn't true, others trust that Gardy and the media (who love Ryan, so why would they lie) are telling the truth, money was an issue, and the Twins would not eat any.


Mike, "Money is an issue" cannot be directly translated to "would not eat any". We don't know if the Twins put that option on the table or not. The Pirates could have just as well said 'no thanks, we like our prospects' and here's 2 scrubs.

#26 jay

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Posted 01 September 2013 - 09:37 AM

I'm mad. I'm hurt. I'm done. I hope this team faces some serious challenges from the remaining fans, and I hope Target Field will soon sit as empty as the hearts and minds of its leadership. Goodbye, Minnesota Twins. I'll be pulling for a future sale of the team, and for better days to come along ... bit I'll be pulling from a distance.


I'm confused. The Twins have been bad for a while now. Trading Morneau was the last straw?

#27 mike wants wins

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Posted 01 September 2013 - 09:43 AM

First words in my post were "we don't know", jay.....I acknowledged that. Will you and Seth acknowledge that we have lots and lots of data indicating that Twins would not eat salary? Years of how Ryan acts, stories on national media sites saying they would not eat salary? Or am I just supposed to think this is a 15 year coincidence with Ryan at the helm?
Lighten up Francis....

#28 ND-Fan

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Posted 01 September 2013 - 09:57 AM

Ryan is only following ownership wishes if ownership wanted to be more aggressive you can bet the Twins would have signed some better free agents. Were on plan of rebuilding that was done in late 90's and early 2000's. We as fans are in for long rebuild again with earliest we can contend is probably 2018 that's if these young prospects develop as they are being sold to us. The problem with this is that Target Field was sold to public that if they would get this extra revenue they would be able to compete and stay competitive year in year out. What it did made ownership to be leader in Mlb baseball on rate of return year in year out. John is right its business for ownership and appears to be very profitable but it doesn't leave a lot for the fan. I guess this why football commands so much more following in Twin Cities its has its up and downs but it doesn't take years to rebuild like baseball and they are willing to spend money to rebuild if necessary if they miss on draft or player gets hurt.

#29 jay

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Posted 01 September 2013 - 10:01 AM

First words in my post were "we don't know", jay.....I acknowledged that. Will you and Seth acknowledge that we have lots and lots of data indicating that Twins would not eat salary? Years of how Ryan acts, stories on national media sites saying they would not eat salary? Or am I just supposed to think this is a 15 year coincidence with Ryan at the helm?


The Twins certainly don't have a track record of doing it. However, they also don't have a track record of ever signing decent free agents.... yet everyone here spends an amazing amount of effort talking about that. Why should we rule out the idea that the Twins could cover part of a contract if we don't rule out free agents?

#30 jay

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Posted 01 September 2013 - 10:03 AM

More importantly, a smart org like the Pirates that has built a strong pipeline probably would have just declined the idea of giving up a better prospect. I'm less likely to place blame for this on the Twins.