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Article: Liriano's Success Is Tough To Stomach

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#1 Nick Nelson

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Posted 20 August 2013 - 08:38 PM

You can view the page at http://twinsdaily.co...ough-To-Stomach

#2 Kwak

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Posted 20 August 2013 - 08:44 PM

Liriano has had success before, so its not amazing. Pittsburgh is a good team that is playing well consistently--it's not like Francisco is expected to lead them to victory--just help them. But I say wait until crunch time then judge him.

#3 TheLeviathan

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Posted 20 August 2013 - 08:49 PM

I vote "The Twins failed repeatedly to help Liriano reach his potential" and I don't think that would have changed resigning him.

#4 nicksaviking

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Posted 20 August 2013 - 09:09 PM

Well according to Liriano, his command improved due to changing his arm angle.

Fastball command sparks Liriano comeback | TribLIVE

Seems like those kind of adjustments generally fall under the realm of coaches, so yes, I'd say Anderson does deserve some scrutiny for not trying this technique with Liriano while in Minnesota.

#5 frightwig

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Posted 20 August 2013 - 09:15 PM

Liriano 2010: 3.62 ERA, 2.66 FIP, 2.95 xFIP, 9.44 K/9, 2.72 BB/9, 0.42 HR/9, 53.6 GB%
Liriano 2013: 2.52 ERA, 2.66 FIP, 2.99 xFIP, 9.37 K/9, 3.50 BB/9, 0.37 HR/9, 52.7 GB%

He's basically having a repeat of his 2010 season, now. I'd say that the big reasons his ERA is more than a run below his 2010 mark are a .287 BABIP (rather than .331 in 2010) and 80.2 LOB% (73.1% in 2010). He's enjoying the benefit of a good Pirates defense (3rd best Defensive Efficiency in the NL) and some luck to support his performance.

We'll see whether he can keep it up for two or more straight seasons, or if the wild, homer-prone Frankie of 2011-12 will rear up again next year. I tend to doubt that "fixing" him was just as easy as "letting Frankie be Frankie" and encouraging him to throw more sliders (as I've seen suggested elsewhere).

Edited by frightwig, 20 August 2013 - 09:19 PM.


#6 Willihammer

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Posted 20 August 2013 - 09:25 PM

Well according to Liriano, his command improved due to changing his arm angle.

Fastball command sparks Liriano comeback | TribLIVE

Seems like those kind of adjustments generally fall under the realm of coaches, so yes, I'd say Anderson does deserve some scrutiny for not trying this technique with Liriano while in Minnesota.


Looks like his slot has even gotten more vertical as the year has gone on.

http://www.brooksbas...inmax=ci&var=z0 At some point he'll have to stop right?

#7 orangevening

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Posted 20 August 2013 - 09:26 PM

It's never that simple as "it's Anderson's". Who know maybe Anderson did the arm angle thing with Liriano? Sometimes when you hear the same voice for years (4+years in this case) you start to tune it out when it's saying something you don't want to hear. Married anyone?

#8 Willihammer

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Posted 20 August 2013 - 09:32 PM

He's enjoying the benefit of a good Pirates defense (3rd best Defensive Efficiency in the NL) and some luck to support his performance.

Interesting sidenote, I was watching Liriano pitch earlier this month and Robby Inkmikowski had a sideline report where he talked about the Pirates changing shifts in the middle of at-bats. They have a second defense against some hitters once they get to two strikes.

Jeff Banister is the coach in charge of it.

#9 Jdosen

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Posted 20 August 2013 - 09:37 PM

I think this is a classic change of scenery scenario, and doubt he would have had the same success back here in MN. And let's not forget the possibility that he just didn't want to come back here any more and wanted a fresh start elsewhere.

#10 Kwak

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Posted 20 August 2013 - 09:42 PM

I remember Liriano's real problem was when he got in trouble things multiplied. Often he would sail along inning after inning, but then have one tough inning and the opponents would score 3, 4, or more. It was as if there were were two different guys.

#11 gil4

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Posted 20 August 2013 - 09:44 PM

...(the Pirates ended up guaranteeing him only a million dollars on a one-year deal, and now have a fairly cheap option on him for 2014 as well)

...it wouldn't have been too difficult to healthily outbid the Bucs.


This is misleading. When he was originally signed, it was a 2-year/$12.75M deal. (I thought I heard $14M at the time, but I'm probably misremembering.) Then he broke his right arm in a fall around the house, and the Pirates voided and renegotiated the deal.

Sure, only $1M was guaranteed, but he will earn the rest based on incentives (mainly for not spending more than the anticipated amount of time on the DL with the right arm injury.) If he manages to avoid falling in the bathroom this coming off-season he will probably get the full amount, even if his left arm turns back into a pumpkin. (I'm guessing he will make the incentives this year that vest next years deal at $8M.)

Article with the details: Y! SPORTS

So it's not as good a deal for the Pirates as it sounds, but what he has done so far has probably paid for the whole contract already. I was in favor of signing him last off season because I thought it was worth a roll of the dice, even at the amount originally discussed, but it did give me some pause. Instead, we rolled the dice on Correia and Pelfrey, with an upside of two #4/5 starters. We won that bet, I guess, but gambling and winning is a lot less fun when the jackpot is a buck-fifty.

#12 frightwig

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Posted 20 August 2013 - 09:45 PM

Well according to Liriano, his command improved due to changing his arm angle.


His first-pitch strike percentage is up (although not quite as good as in 2010), but it's interesting that meanwhile his total percentage of pitches inside the strike zone is actually at a career low, 38.3%. And while his 3.50 BB/9 is certainly better than the last two years, it's not indicative of suddenly great command, either. It's not much lower than his career mark (3.77), actually.

#13 Guest_USAFChief_*

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Posted 20 August 2013 - 09:47 PM

Liriano could have been signed to a cheap extension last season, which was always the smart move for a team in the Twins situation.

#14 Seth Stohs

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Posted 20 August 2013 - 09:50 PM

I agree. I think it's a change of scenery. And, it's not like the Twins didn't try to sign Liriano this offseason, but I think we all can understand why they wouldn't have wanted to get in a bidding war for him.

I'm not the biggest Anderson fan, but I think they tried everything with Liriano to try to spark something. I could argue that they should have let him throw more sliders rather than trying to get him to throw strikes with the fastball, but coming off of Tommy John surgery, I certainly don't blame them for not encouraging a ton of sliders.

That's why it really doesn't bother me. I'm glad he's doing well, and I hope he keeps it up.

#15 darin617

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Posted 20 August 2013 - 09:53 PM

Good thing the Twins still have Rick Anderson here to help this pitching staff. Maybe Scott Diamond will be the next pitcher to find success after leaving MN.

Please Terry Ryan let Gardy's and Rick Anderson's contract expire and don't renew them. One last thing you gotta love how the Pohlad's are making it all Ryan's responsibility for firing Gardy if he chooses to do so. I never knew a GM had so much power over ownership.

#16 OldManWinter

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Posted 20 August 2013 - 10:21 PM

No Faul Or Blame Assigned. Sometimes It Is A Person Falling Into A Rut And Need A Change Of Scenery. Maybe Lariano Even HAd An Issue We Are Not Aware Of?

Anyone Know Why Every Word I Type Gets The First Letter Capitalized when I Hit The Spacebar???????

#17 old nurse

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Posted 20 August 2013 - 10:31 PM

Anyone Know Why Every Word I Type Gets The First Letter Capitalized when I Hit The Spacebar???????

Does your smart phone know a trick you don't? Find a 12 year old, they usually know.

#18 twinsnorth49

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Posted 20 August 2013 - 11:02 PM

We got Corriea for 5 mil, they got Frankie for 1.....awesome!

While it stings that he's having success elsewhere and we're stuck with what we have, it's too simplistic to heap the blame on Anderson, he had success under Anderson before, he just couldn't find it the past two years. It never comes down to just one thing, it's usually a combination of them, change of scenery, new competition, change in mechanics, etc..

I think the largest blame has to go to Ryan for not at least offering up more than the insignificant amount the Bucs signed him for. I mean come on, look at the other crap we ponied up for.

#19 CGNikolic

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Posted 20 August 2013 - 11:08 PM

I agree that no one should get the blame on the Twins side for Liriano's new found success. It hurts to see him do it in a different uniform.. But that fact that he may be unmasking his true potential is pretty awesome. He's always been fun to watch, just most of the time not because he's being successful. If anything, the White Sox should feel the most butt hurt. They have us two (decent? Mediocre?) players for a 1-2 month flyer on Liriano.. And it was ugly. There was no way he was ever going to come back to the Twins anyways. Just was not meant to be any more (as in him finding success here).

#20 beckmt

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Posted 20 August 2013 - 11:18 PM

I believe the Twins did try to sign him in the offseason and Frankie wanted to go elsewhere. Do not blame TR for this one.

#21 Beezer07

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Posted 20 August 2013 - 11:26 PM

I blame Gardy. Why? Just because he seems like an easy target.

#22 iastfan112

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Posted 21 August 2013 - 12:49 AM

I do blame Anderson at least partially, its not as if Liriano has suddenly found better control, his zone % is actually down again this year its that he's been relying on his fastball. His slider is nasty whereas his fastball is highly erratic. It really seems as if the Twins/Anderson had a hard time letting him pitch in an unorthodox manner compared to the conventional wisdom of using the fastball to set up the slider.

#23 troyhobbs

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Posted 21 August 2013 - 05:06 AM

I know Liriano could be a train wreck at times but why would an organization in dire need of pitching let their most talented pitcher walk? Best wishes to Liriano, I'll always be a fan of his.

#24 drjim

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Posted 21 August 2013 - 06:29 AM

I'm happy for him and Pittsburgh. Fun story.

It will be interesting to see if he can continue to dominate down the stretch and in the playoffs and back it up next season. As mentioned, he has had stretches like this before.

#25 IdahoPilgrim

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Posted 21 August 2013 - 06:56 AM

One last thing you gotta love how the Pohlad's are making it all Ryan's responsibility for firing Gardy if he chooses to do so. I never knew a GM had so much power over ownership.


Isn't that exactly what the GM is there for? If I'm an owner without a baseball background, I would think the last thing I should be doing is mucking around with baseball decisions, one of which is baseball staffing and personnel moves. My "job" is to hire a good GM to make those decisions and then make the GM accountable to me.

#26 mike wants wins

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Posted 21 August 2013 - 07:13 AM

So when people say "show me Twins that have left, and then we can judge the coaches" Liriano deosn't count? How about Lohse, does he count? Do only guys that don't get better count? I'm not sure how this works.
Lighten up Francis....

#27 birdwatcher

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Posted 21 August 2013 - 07:45 AM

So when people say "show me Twins that have left, and then we can judge the coaches" Liriano deosn't count? How about Lohse, does he count? Do only guys that don't get better count? I'm not sure how this works.


It works both ways Mike. You'd be right in questioning any unflattering conclusion drawn from a few examples like Lohse or Liriano, just like you'd be right drawing the opposite conclusion from examples like Fien or Deduno.

Are you in the camp of resisting coming to conclusions from examples both favorable AND unfavorable?

#28 mike wants wins

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Posted 21 August 2013 - 07:50 AM

Not at all, I've pointed out where the Twins have done well also....but this whole thread is people saying we can't judge Anderson with this info....so I am asking, when I can I judge anderson. We are talking about Anderson and Liriano, and players that have left.....not every single thing Anderson has ever done.

You sure Deduno has actually improved, the more he's been in the majors? I'm not, not yet.
Lighten up Francis....

#29 birdwatcher

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Posted 21 August 2013 - 08:27 AM

Not at all, I've pointed out where the Twins have done well also....but this whole thread is people saying we can't judge Anderson with this info....so I am asking, when I can I judge anderson. We are talking about Anderson and Liriano, and players that have left.....not every single thing Anderson has ever done.

You sure Deduno has actually improved, the more he's been in the majors? I'm not, not yet.


You and I can't credibly judge any of these coaches or managers. To do so in the face of our pathetic level of information and expertise smacks of arrogance.

#30 birdwatcher

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Posted 21 August 2013 - 08:30 AM

Deduno? All I know is he's been pitching in the majors and he wasn't before, so he appears to have improved.