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Article: Ron Gardenhire talks September roster

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#1 Parker Hageman

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Posted 20 August 2013 - 11:49 AM

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#2 mike wants wins

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Posted 20 August 2013 - 12:20 PM

So, Gardy confirms it is about Ryan not being willing to eat salary.....can we put that part to bed yet, and just admit it? What conclusions you draw to the bigger picture about Ryan and money is a different discussion....

#3 IdahoPilgrim

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Posted 20 August 2013 - 12:31 PM

I think my question (and it is meant as an honest question) is how much value is there actually in a September callup. Yes, players are getting major league experience, but I wonder if it is not a somewhat diluted experience nonetheless. Other clubs will also be bringing up prospects, so that all the rosters will be somewhat diluted after Sept. 1. Doesn't that make it a little different than facing the "top 25" before 9/1? It kind of reminds me of spring training, where veterans and prospects often play at the same time. That also is valuable experience, but we've all learned to distrust ST numbers because of it.

Yes, these games will in some cases have playoff implications, so the intensity will be higher than in spring training, and that also is worthwhile experiencing, and you will face some top-notch hitters/pitchers that you won't see in Triple-A. But has there actually been any studies done on players called up post-9/1 and those not and how it has actually affected their development (or failed to affect it)?

For me, the value of these callups is for fans to get a glimpse of the future.

#4 mike wants wins

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Posted 20 August 2013 - 12:44 PM

IP, that's what most people like KLAW say....but I'd guess Hendriks pitching here would be a bigger challenge than in AAA, wouldn't it? It might not "prove" anything, but I'd think it would have some useful data.
Lighten up Francis....

#5 jokin

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Posted 20 August 2013 - 12:47 PM

I think my question (and it is meant as an honest question) is how much value is there actually in a September callup. Yes, players are getting major league experience, but I wonder if it is not a somewhat diluted experience nonetheless. Other clubs will also be bringing up prospects, so that all the rosters will be somewhat diluted after Sept. 1. Doesn't that make it a little different than facing the "top 25" before 9/1? It kind of reminds me of spring training, where veterans and prospects often play at the same time. That also is valuable experience, but we've all learned to distrust ST numbers because of it.

Yes, these games will in some cases have playoff implications, so the intensity will be higher than in spring training, and that also is worthwhile experiencing, and you will face some top-notch hitters/pitchers that you won't see in Triple-A. But has there actually been any studies done on players called up post-9/1 and those not and how it has actually affected their development (or failed to affect it)?

For me, the value of these callups is for fans to get a glimpse of the future.


The converse of your argument would be that a team would be just as well-served by NOT calling anyone up.

Besides the chance to raise fiscal revenue by a few percent by selling more tickets after Labor Day (always a tough sell for a non-contender), what does it hurt for possible 2014 rookies to get a glimpse at big-league life- and all that that entails?

The answer? Nothing.

What does it help for individual development? Possibly something.

"Somethings" like: familiarization to a tougher environment, added motivation to reach the pinnacle of your sport and, when you're 20-25 years old, every rep helps your development, even watered-down reps.

Edited by jokin, 20 August 2013 - 12:49 PM.


#6 IdahoPilgrim

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Posted 20 August 2013 - 12:52 PM

The converse of your argument would be that a team would be just as well-served by NOT calling anyone up.

Besides the chance to raise fiscal revenue by a few percent by selling more tickets after Labor Day (always a tough sell for a non-contender), what does it hurt for possible 2014 rookies to get a glimpse at big-league life- and all that that entails?

The answer? Nothing.

What does it help for individual development? Possibly something.

"Somethings" like: familiarization to a tougher environment, added motivation to reach the pinnacle of your sport and, when you're 20-25 years old, every rep helps your development, even watered-down reps.


Fair enough. Good points. Especially for the Twins who have nothing else to play for. But if you're in a pennant race, does this still hold? I would want to play my best 25, at least until I've clinched.

#7 Kwak

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Posted 20 August 2013 - 12:55 PM

Ryan is just affirming a "tough posture". It may seem to be wrong, but remember when the Twins were winning--and looking for upgrades--no one was cutting the Twins a break! So nuts to them. If they want Morneau, pay up, else finish your season with what they have and wonder "what if?" come November--just like we did!

September callups are just what is implied--auditions. The Twins have many open jobs for 2014 so let people show what they have--or don't have!

Auditions. I watched much of the Rock Cats game last night--brutal! It was clear to me why this team has a losing record. Lazy, half-ass play; situational baseball--unheard by this bunch! Sano apparently only wants to hit fastballs and he can be baited by FBs out-of-zone. Yeah, he needs more experience. A repeat at AA for a spell next year should do him some good--maybe shake his sweet smell of entitlement.

#8 Shane Wahl

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Posted 20 August 2013 - 01:00 PM

It is completely asinine that they don't want to just eat the rest of Morneau's salary for the rest of the season. They better plan on bringing him back then, instead of doing nothing and getting nothing.

A September callup is going to mean a lot more for someone like Hendriks than Sano right now.

#9 drjim

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Posted 20 August 2013 - 01:04 PM

So, Gardy confirms it is about Ryan not being willing to eat salary.....can we put that part to bed yet, and just admit it? What conclusions you draw to the bigger picture about Ryan and money is a different discussion....


That's not exactly what he said.
Papers...business papers.

#10 TheLeviathan

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Posted 20 August 2013 - 01:21 PM

That's not exactly what he said.


No, but it's hard to swallow the idea that money is the driving reason why he wasn't dealt. I would hope the manager on the team has a reasonable idea of what is going on, but at the very least you can conclude that within the organization the rumor is that he was kept because of a lack of trade interest due to salary.

That's.....unsettling.

#11 stringer bell

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Posted 20 August 2013 - 01:22 PM

It is completely asinine that they don't want to just eat the rest of Morneau's salary for the rest of the season. They better plan on bringing him back then, instead of doing nothing and getting nothing.

A September callup is going to mean a lot more for someone like Hendriks than Sano right now.

While other teams seem much more willing to eat salary, I can't recall the Twins ever doing it, at least on the scale of $3M. My guess is that the return offered for eating salary isn't much anyway. While Morneau has said he wants to return, if he gets a similar offer to what the Twins offer from a team with a chance next year, it won't surprise me at all to see him in another uniform next year.

#12 jay

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Posted 20 August 2013 - 01:24 PM

I guess I'm reading that a bit differently also. It's not about the money, it's about actually getting something back of any value. Why pay $3M to not have Morneau on the team and get some no-chance A-level scrub in return?

#13 big dog

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Posted 20 August 2013 - 01:25 PM

This is Gardy talking about second-hand reports to a reporter. Hopefully there's more going on behind the scenes. Saying that teams don't want to take on the money might be leaving out the fact that teams haven't been willing to part with anyone interesting even if the Twins pay the money. Morneau hasn't exactly been tearing it up, you might have noticed. He's also been pretty public about wanting to stay- that may not hurt his trade value much, but it sure isn't helping it.

Not saying that's what is happening, just saying there is a lot of assertion here about motivation based on a small scrap of perhaps partially-correct information.

#14 drjim

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Posted 20 August 2013 - 01:38 PM

No, but it's hard to swallow the idea that money is the driving reason why he wasn't dealt. I would hope the manager on the team has a reasonable idea of what is going on, but at the very least you can conclude that within the organization the rumor is that he was kept because of a lack of trade interest due to salary.

That's.....unsettling.


Could you instead swallow the reality that Morneau has no value? That seems to me to be the relevant point.

The Twins aren't going to give him away for nothing.

#15 mike wants wins

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Posted 20 August 2013 - 01:41 PM

That's not what Gardy said......he said it's about money.

"but everything I’ve heard is that there is money involved and all that and other teams are not wanting to touch money and stuff like that.”

Can someone explain how that sentence is not about money?

As for the Sano thing, no surprise he's not coming up this year, is there?
Lighten up Francis....

#16 ThePuck

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Posted 20 August 2013 - 01:44 PM

Fair enough. Good points. Especially for the Twins who have nothing else to play for. But if you're in a pennant race, does this still hold? I would want to play my best 25, at least until I've clinched.


Exactly, and with more teams in the playoff hunt than ever before (with the 2nd wild card), more teams will be playing all out, not using their expanded roster that much. A team like ours could have players benefit playing against those kind of teams

#17 jay

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Posted 20 August 2013 - 01:50 PM

That's not what Gardy said......he said it's about money.

"but everything I’ve heard is that there is money involved and all that and other teams are not wanting to touch money and stuff like that.”

Can someone explain how that sentence is not about money?


He said it's about money for other teams. That's inferring that the Twins will have to eat Morneau's salary in order to trade him, but it doesn't say anywhere they aren't willing to do that.

The problem is likely that other teams aren't offering anything of value in return for that, not that the Twins won't do it... but that's not for certain either.

#18 drjim

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Posted 20 August 2013 - 01:51 PM

That's not what Gardy said......he said it's about money.

"but everything I’ve heard is that there is money involved and all that and other teams are not wanting to touch money and stuff like that.”

Can someone explain how that sentence is not about money?

As for the Sano thing, no surprise he's not coming up this year, is there?


I would consider the next paragraph for a more accurate assessment of why Morneau hasn't been traded.

#19 Mr. Brooks

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Posted 20 August 2013 - 01:51 PM

I think my question (and it is meant as an honest question) is how much value is there actually in a September callup. Yes, players are getting major league experience, but I wonder if it is not a somewhat diluted experience nonetheless. Other clubs will also be bringing up prospects, so that all the rosters will be somewhat diluted after Sept. 1. Doesn't that make it a little different than facing the "top 25" before 9/1? It kind of reminds me of spring training, where veterans and prospects often play at the same time. That also is valuable experience, but we've all learned to distrust ST numbers because of it.

Yes, these games will in some cases have playoff implications, so the intensity will be higher than in spring training, and that also is worthwhile experiencing, and you will face some top-notch hitters/pitchers that you won't see in Triple-A. But has there actually been any studies done on players called up post-9/1 and those not and how it has actually affected their development (or failed to affect it)?

For me, the value of these callups is for fans to get a glimpse of the future.


Very true, which is what I used to try to caution against getting too excited over Parmelee during his scorching Sept. a couple of years ago.
It should be more about getting them some MLB experience, IMO, not necessarily drawing any conclusions from the results.

#20 ashburyjohn

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Posted 20 August 2013 - 01:59 PM

Exactly, and with more teams in the playoff hunt than ever before (with the 2nd wild card), more teams will be playing all out, not using their expanded roster that much. A team like ours could have players benefit playing against those kind of teams


Conversely, long baseball tradition is that the non-contenders must field at least a representative lineup when facing contenders. Nobody wants to lose a close pennant (er, wild card) race because your rival played the Twins and swept them while facing no-names. This then limits the number of September call-ups you can usefully put into games.

#21 ThePuck

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Posted 20 August 2013 - 02:02 PM

Conversely, long baseball tradition is that the non-contenders must field at least a representative lineup when facing contenders. Nobody wants to lose a close pennant (er, wild card) race because your rival played the Twins and swept them while facing no-names. This then limits the number of September call-ups you can usefully put into games.


yeah, that's a play it by ear type of thing. I'm not suggesting tanking games or anything but if we have people we want to get experience for next year, our first priority should be towards that.

#22 LaBombo

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Posted 20 August 2013 - 03:28 PM

Ryan is just affirming a "tough posture". It may seem to be wrong, but remember when the Twins were winning--and looking for upgrades--no one was cutting the Twins a break! So nuts to them. If they want Morneau, pay up, else finish your season with what they have and wonder "what if?" come November--just like we did!

Revenge! It's simultaneously the most ridiculous motive I can think of for the Twins not trading veterans for prospects, and yet the most plausible. Well done, and not the facetious kind.

#23 orangevening

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Posted 20 August 2013 - 05:28 PM

I brought this up in another thread, but what is wrong with bringing Sano and/or Rosario (or even Pinto) up (besides the 40 man issue) in September and sitting them on the bench 80% of the time just to soak up the experince and bring a few more people to the ballpark.? A pinch-hit there, a late game substitute here and at most a spot start once a week.

#24 Mr. Brooks

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Posted 20 August 2013 - 05:31 PM

I brought this up in another thread, but what is wrong with bringing Sano and/or Rosario (or even Pinto) up (besides the 40 man issue) in September and sitting them on the bench 80% of the time just to soak up the experince and bring a few more people to the ballpark.? A pinch-hit there, a late game substitute here and at most a spot start once a week.


If you are going to bring up Sano, why would you put him on the bench? He'd be our 2nd best hitter immediately.

#25 TheLeviathan

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Posted 20 August 2013 - 06:27 PM

Could you instead swallow the reality that Morneau has no value? That seems to me to be the relevant point.

The Twins aren't going to give him away for nothing.


If Gardy had said: "I heard we didn't have strong suitors". Sure.

You are stretching to make this about value when Gardy specifically cites money. YOu could say its too second hand....but you are trying to read into it your opinion, not taking the quote as is.

#26 birdwatcher

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Posted 20 August 2013 - 06:29 PM

I guess I'm reading that a bit differently also. It's not about the money, it's about actually getting something back of any value. Why pay $3M to not have Morneau on the team and get some no-chance A-level scrub in return?


That's my read on it too, and that's in line with the comments Jim Pohlad made, which is that it's all about getting an equitable return. He said they have no interest in making moves simply to unload a player or a salary. Now, it could be that Ryan is squeezing a nickel again, but I don't thin it's fair to draw that conclusion based on what's been said. And especially something awkwardly said by Gardy.

#27 birdwatcher

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Posted 20 August 2013 - 06:43 PM

I brought this up in another thread, but what is wrong with bringing Sano and/or Rosario (or even Pinto) up (besides the 40 man issue) in September and sitting them on the bench 80% of the time just to soak up the experince and bring a few more people to the ballpark.? A pinch-hit there, a late game substitute here and at most a spot start once a week.


I believe Ryan has said he's inclined to send Sano home to rest up and be ready to go come spring training. He said Sano has played alot of baseball this summer and that the time off would probably be he best thing for him.

#28 RodneyKline

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Posted 20 August 2013 - 06:48 PM

Sano is not ready yet. He can't hit .250 at AA but he is ready for the majors? I don't think so. Hicks hit .280 at AA last season. Prediction: Byron Buxton is the next Rookie of the Year for the Twins.

#29 Mr. Brooks

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Posted 20 August 2013 - 07:00 PM

Sano is not ready yet. He can't hit .250 at AA but he is ready for the majors? I don't think so. Hicks hit .280 at AA last season. Prediction: Byron Buxton is the next Rookie of the Year for the Twins.


I'm sure Sano's unlucky 70 point (from his career) drop in babip has a little bit to do with that AVG. His K/rate and BB/rate are right in line with the rest of his career so far, and he's Slugging .561. What was Hicks slg% in AA?

He may or may not be ready defensively. If he's not ready offensively, he's pretty damn close. Don't let the AVG fool you, he is destroying AA pitching.

Even with that supressed AVG, he's 3rd in the Eastern League in OPS.

Edited by Mr. Brooks, 20 August 2013 - 07:05 PM.


#30 clutterheart

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Posted 20 August 2013 - 07:20 PM

Sano is not ready yet. He can't hit .250 at AA but he is ready for the majors? I don't think so. Hicks hit .280 at AA last season. Prediction: Byron Buxton is the next Rookie of the Year for the Twins.


Don't forget to look and see that slugging %. Its pretty good

He's not a contact hitter. He is a power hitter and his BA will be off - especiall in the early years.

We will see some Strike Outs, ground outs and he will look bad sometimes. But when he connects it will go a long way. If he was on the team today he would hit .200 with 15 HR

But when he refines his approach Im hoping for 260 with 35 HR. Its going to be a lot of fun!