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Berardino: For Twins' Terry Ryan, the July Nightmare Scenario is Repeating

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#1 East Coast Twin

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Posted 27 July 2013 - 04:16 AM

Interesting article about Terry Ryan's past history with deadline trade, especially last year's trade of Francisco Liriano.

Terry also claims the Scott Erickson trade to Baltimore was his best ever. Why? Because he had to shed payroll and found someone willing to take Erickson.

For Twins' Terry Ryan, the July nightmare scenario is repeating - TwinCities.com

#2 nicksaviking

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Posted 27 July 2013 - 06:49 AM

Nice link. Nothing better than an article that starts my blood boiling on a Saturday morning.

If this wasn't Berardino I'd think it was made up or a mis-quote. Our GM actually is most proud of the move that only helped shed payroll. Wow.

This gives little hope that the Twins will eat any of Morneau's contract in exchange for a better prospect.

Additionally, there is no rule that Liriano had to be traded right at the deadline, there were plenty of us saying last year that he should be moved ASAP before he had his blowup moment. Others were saying his value wouldn't have changed much, Ryan clearly believed it did.

Edited by nicksaviking, 27 July 2013 - 07:14 AM.


#3 old nurse

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Posted 27 July 2013 - 07:33 AM

Nice link. Nothing better than an article that starts my blood boiling on a Saturday morning.

If this wasn't Berardino I'd think it was made up or a mis-quote. Our GM actually is most proud of the move that only helped shed payroll. Wow.

This gives little hope that the Twins will eat any of Morneau's contract in exchange for a better prospect.

Additionally, there is no rule that Liriano had to be traded right at the deadline, there were plenty of us saying last year that he should be moved ASAP before he had his blowup moment. Others were saying his value wouldn't have changed much, Ryan clearly believed it did.


Context would be a wonderful thing here. Erickson was to be a free agent that winter, and pitching poorly. That the Twins were shedding payroll might also have been known.The comment would make more sense as to why he was proud of the trade if there was information like "we had no offers for him, little interest" etc. He could be proud he got something with promise for maybe a lot of work on his part.

#4 jokin

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Posted 27 July 2013 - 08:04 AM

Context would be a wonderful thing here. Erickson was to be a free agent that winter, and pitching poorly. That the Twins were shedding payroll might also have been known.The comment would make more sense as to why he was proud of the trade if there was information like "we had no offers for him, little interest" etc. He could be proud he got something with promise for maybe a lot of work on his part.


In 1995 he traded 4 Twins pitchers, Aguilera, Erickson, Tapani and Guthrie for:

Rodriguez (5.20 ERA as a Twin)
Klingenbeck (8.30 ERA as a Twin- and a guy who thought air traffic controllers had a cushy job flying around in helicopters all day)
Coom-dog (or Barney Rubble, as Kirby called him. Twins OPS+ of 88)

Not an inspiring list to hang your hat on for all your hard work, I'd say.

#5 big dog

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Posted 27 July 2013 - 08:24 AM

Context would be a wonderful thing here. Erickson was to be a free agent that winter, and pitching poorly. That the Twins were shedding payroll might also have been known.The comment would make more sense as to why he was proud of the trade if there was information like "we had no offers for him, little interest" etc. He could be proud he got something with promise for maybe a lot of work on his part.


Another significant problem was that Erickson was really complaining. Decent track record (high ceiling, high variability), but pitching poorly, paid well, and carping. I remember at the time thinking he had to go just to help the rest of the team concentrate on baseball.

Still, to claim that's your best trade? It's kind of like saying you had that used car that had been on the lot for years, people thought you would have to junk it, but you persuaded someone to give you $500 instead. I suppose you could say it was personally satisfying, but I don't really see how it helped the team other than addition by subtraction.

That was a ridiculously discouraging set of trades. Aggie made 30 appearances with Boston and was 20/21 in save opportunities- of course, people thought Frankie Rodriguez was actually a real pitcher. Oops. Tapani still had some gas in the tank, too.

#6 Willihammer

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Posted 27 July 2013 - 08:34 AM

Ironically the whole reason Erickson was complaining was because the FO was pinching pennies.

#7 big dog

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Posted 27 July 2013 - 08:38 AM

Ironically the whole reason Erickson was complaining was because the FO was pinching pennies.


That's basically what I remember, although I think the gist of it was that he thought they ought to be spending as much as the Yankees/Dodgers/etc- his scale did seem a little off. Going to the WS as a rookie can skew expectations, I guess.

#8 Thrylos

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Posted 27 July 2013 - 09:01 AM

Well, bottom line of this article is that TR cannot make a decent deadline trade; but to be fair I'd put his Reed for Lawton and his Steward for Kielty trades up there. These 2 helped the Twins, but not his other deadline trades... Letting Thome go to just go, was pathetic too.
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#9 Mike Sixel

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Posted 27 July 2013 - 09:12 AM

I think being most proud of shedding payroll says it all. Makes me sad, really. If just once he had tried to play for the present, they might have another World Series. But I do not think it is in him. You all keep saying, just wait, things are different now. But so far, three years in, it is mor of the same.

I don't know, it is a site to discuss sports, not airline safety.....maybe we should take it less seriously?


#10 Mike Sixel

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Posted 27 July 2013 - 09:13 AM

I would be most proud of Kielty for Stewart also, the fact he isn't? Wow.

I don't know, it is a site to discuss sports, not airline safety.....maybe we should take it less seriously?


#11 jorgenswest

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Posted 27 July 2013 - 09:13 AM

In 1995 he traded 4 Twins pitchers, Aguilera, Erickson, Tapani and Guthrie for:

Rodriguez (5.20 ERA as a Twin)
Klingenbeck (8.30 ERA as a Twin- and a guy who thought air traffic controllers had a cushy job flying around in helicopters all day)
Coom-dog (or Barney Rubble, as Kirby called him. Twins OPS+ of 88)

Not an inspiring list to hang your hat on for all your hard work, I'd say.


In the Aguilera trade they received one of the better starting pitching prospects in Frankie Rodriguez. He was BBAs #36 prospect and had been listed as high as 9 in an earlier season. Aguilera was a rental and the Twins resigned him as a free agent the following winter.

Getting a top near major league ready starting pitching prospect for Perkins is what everyone is seeking. Those prospects don't always work out.

#12 Winston Smith

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Posted 27 July 2013 - 09:16 AM

This quote was left out:
"We're into making money and the more payroll I can cut the happier the Pohlads are".

If you don't know where you are going, you might wind up someplace else.

 

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#13 jokin

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Posted 27 July 2013 - 09:25 AM

Another significant problem was that Erickson was really complaining. Decent track record (high ceiling, high variability), but pitching poorly, paid well, and carping. I remember at the time thinking he had to go just to help the rest of the team concentrate on baseball.

Still, to claim that's your best trade? It's kind of like saying you had that used car that had been on the lot for years, people thought you would have to junk it, but you persuaded someone to give you $500 instead. I suppose you could say it was personally satisfying, but I don't really see how it helped the team other than addition by subtraction.

That was a ridiculously discouraging set of trades. Aggie made 30 appearances with Boston and was 20/21 in save opportunities- of course, people thought Frankie Rodriguez was actually a real pitcher. Oops. Tapani still had some gas in the tank, too.


Erickson was yet another example of trading a player at the worst possible time. Scott had a complete reversal of fortune that year for the Orioles, who bought Erickson at the absolute low-point of his Twins career (5.95 ERA/81 ERA+) to an amazing resurgence that same year for the Birds ( 16 starts/3.89 ERA/123 ERA+). And he gave them 4 very solid workhorse years after that, averaging around 230 IP/yr.

For that, TR got 77 innings and an 8.30 ERA from Scott Klingenbeck.

Oh, and for all that "hard work" and self-satisfied, self-back-slapping, Ryan saved less than half of Erickson's 1995 salary- a princely sum of $931,250.

#14 PseudoSABR

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Posted 27 July 2013 - 09:40 AM

While there's plenty to be cynical of, I found this quote illuminating and reassuring:

[FONT=Georgia]"We're not into respectability," Ryan said July 13. "We're into winning ... and getting into postseason."[/FONT]


#15 jokin

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Posted 27 July 2013 - 09:44 AM

In the Aguilera trade they received one of the better starting pitching prospects in Frankie Rodriguez. He was BBAs #36 prospect and had been listed as high as 9 in an earlier season. Aguilera was a rental and the Twins resigned him as a free agent the following winter.

Getting a top near major league ready starting pitching prospect for Perkins is what everyone is seeking. Those prospects don't always work out.


That would qualify in my book for the understatement of the day.

Rodriguez was a ML failure before he joined the Twins, when he was a Twin and after he was a Twin. In 7 ML years, he cracked below the 5.00 ERA line just once (4.63).

The author of the piece got it right, Rodriguez was extremely over-hyped, Ryan bought into that hype without kicking the tires a little bit more. As you stated, he was a BA top prospect, whose ranking was continually falling as he persistently failed to meet those lofty expectations with Boston. His suspect minor league peripherals and smallish physical stature just didn't make this a good bet.

Since you mentioned Perkins, his 3 most recent appearances hasn't helped his trade value any. I hope the Twins aren't tempted to panic by Perk's temporarily diminished value by another Frankie Rodriguez type, oh-so-tantalyzingly dangled in front of them.

#16 Rosterman

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Posted 27 July 2013 - 09:46 AM

The bigger question is what will the player cost in the near future, and where do they fit in erms of the organization...now.

Justin Morneau...will cost money to retain, can be repalced by cheaper parts...but if you have the money, why not spend.

Jamey Carroll, Josh Roeincke, Mike Pelfry...if you can get an unproven yet promising low-level prospect in a position of need, do it.

Josh Willingham.....think if you just wish to shed salary. of course, who is playing the outfield...Herrmann, Parmelee...or do you advance Buxton.

Correia.....if you can shed his salary, do it. Really, you can repalce him with henriks for all I care.

Seems your best bet might be getting a worthwhile advanced prospect for Duening. Bring up Aaron Thompson in his place.

What is sad is that you look at the Twins 40-man roster AND Rochester roster, and you don't really see much worth in players that if you put them on a chart, won't be a Twin in 2014 or even 2015 (Parmelee, Plouffe)

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#17 DaveW

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Posted 27 July 2013 - 09:48 AM

There is a big difference between Aggie and Perkins. Aggie was a pending free agent (as was Erickson) it sucks we didn't get some big haul back, but neither guy was some huge trade target for anyone at the time.

Ditto with Liriano. It's hard to get on Ryan too much about July deals, more often then not under Ryan the Twins are not in sell mode in late July.

#18 jokin

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Posted 27 July 2013 - 09:57 AM

Another significant problem was that Erickson was really complaining. Decent track record (high ceiling, high variability), but pitching poorly, paid well, and carping. I remember at the time thinking he had to go just to help the rest of the team concentrate on baseball.

Still, to claim that's your best trade? It's kind of like saying you had that used car that had been on the lot for years, people thought you would have to junk it, but you persuaded someone to give you $500 instead. I suppose you could say it was personally satisfying, but I don't really see how it helped the team other than addition by subtraction.

That was a ridiculously discouraging set of trades. Aggie made 30 appearances with Boston and was 20/21 in save opportunities- of course, people thought Frankie Rodriguez was actually a real pitcher. Oops. Tapani still had some gas in the tank, too.


Just for my own masochistic fun, I looked up Mark Guthrie's post-Twins career. He pitched 8.5 more years and was anything from serviceably competent- to very effective- as a lefty RP over that span. The Twins saved about $400,000 for moving him in '95.

#19 jokin

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Posted 27 July 2013 - 10:04 AM

The bigger question is what will the player cost in the near future, and where do they fit in erms of the organization...now.

Justin Morneau...will cost money to retain, can be repalced by cheaper parts...but if you have the money, why not spend.

Jamey Carroll, Josh Roeincke, Mike Pelfry...if you can get an unproven yet promising low-level prospect in a position of need, do it.

Josh Willingham.....think if you just wish to shed salary. of course, who is playing the outfield...Herrmann, Parmelee...1)or do you advance Buxton?

2) Correia.....if you can shed his salary, do it. Really, you can repalce him with henriks for all I care.

3) Seems your best bet might be getting a worthwhile advanced prospect for Duening. Bring up Aaron Thompson in his place.

What is sad is that you look at the Twins 40-man roster AND Rochester roster, and you don't really see much worth in players that if you put them on a chart, won't be a Twin in 2014 or even 2015 (Parmelee, Plouffe)


1) Yes! on Buxton
2) Yes! on Correia- Albers, Blackburn, Hendriks
3) Yes! on Duensing, add Swarzak (both are arb eligible)- Thielbar's emergence as a lefty makes Duens superfluous (his lefty split isn't good this year)-with P. Hernandez available when he comes off the DL, besides Aaron Thompson, this would also potentially open up a spot for Tonkin. I'd also like to find out if Ibarra is for real or just a flash in the pan.

Edited by jokin, 27 July 2013 - 10:09 AM.


#20 big dog

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Posted 27 July 2013 - 10:19 AM

Just for my own masochistic fun, I looked up Mark Guthrie's post-Twins career. He pitched 8.5 more years and was anything from serviceably competent- to very effective- as a lefty RP over that span. The Twins saved about $400,000 for moving him in '95.


Those were dark days, no question about it. I was stunned when Guthrie was more or less thrown in with Tapani and sent to the Dodgers for practically nothing. Losing both in the same trade felt like just firing the pitching staff and completely giving up.

When he first came up as a starter, I thought Guthrie was going to be a very good pitcher- I loved his stuff. He never became what I hoped for, but he was definitely a valuable major league pitcher, before and after the trade.