Jump to content

Providing independent coverage of the Minnesota Twins.
The same great Twins Daily coverage, now for the Vikings.

The Store


Photo

Article: Mixed Developments For Future of Twins Rotation

  • Please log in to reply
47 replies to this topic

#1 Nick Nelson

Nick Nelson

    Owner

  • Administrators
  • 2,063 posts

Posted 30 June 2013 - 06:43 PM

You can view the page at http://twinsdaily.co...-Twins-Rotation

#2 howieramone1406390264

howieramone1406390264

    Banned

  • Banned
  • 715 posts

Posted 30 June 2013 - 07:04 PM

IMO the next milestone in the rebuilding process, is Meyer and/or May making it to Target Field. It does underscore the need for Ryan to continue to accumulate top starting pitching prospects. I would be very surprised if Perkins doesn't net us the next one.

#3 CK

CK

    Member

  • Members
  • 85 posts

Posted 30 June 2013 - 08:39 PM

I liked him resting until they came out and said he was resting indefinitely. Ugh. Fingers crossed.

#4 clutterheart

clutterheart

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 659 posts

Posted 30 June 2013 - 08:50 PM

The future of the rotation is in the CR, GCL and E-twon
Guys like Felix Jorge, Randy Rosario, Yorman Landa, Berrios, Stewart are going to be the future.
Gibson, Meyer, May are nice pitchers, but in my opinion, by the time the above guys get to AA, the Twins are going to be looking at a amazing future rotation.

#5 Kwak

Kwak

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 1,291 posts

Posted 30 June 2013 - 09:06 PM

It's nice to look at guys in the minors and project that they become solid (or better) SPs, but history shows most of these guys fail. Consider recent Twins pitchers that had substantial success in the minors--even at Rochester who floundered or even completely failed at the ML level.

Recall this preseason when people were guessing who would be in the rotation this year? Diamond was not only deemed a lock for this season, but for several years. Now? His future as a SP is in question. Things change. There are very good reasons why teams sign free agents to join their rotation.

#6 howieramone1406390264

howieramone1406390264

    Banned

  • Banned
  • 715 posts

Posted 30 June 2013 - 09:13 PM

The future of the rotation is in the CR, GCL and E-twon
Guys like Felix Jorge, Randy Rosario, Yorman Landa, Berrios, Stewart are going to be the future.
Gibson, Meyer, May are nice pitchers, but in my opinion, by the time the above guys get to AA, the Twins are going to be looking at a amazing future rotation.

I hope you're right and I've read several of your articles, so I know you watch things much more closely than I do. That said, I find it hard to get excited about starting pitching prospects in the lower minors. I much prefer Ryan's approach of getting prospects with one or two+ years of experience from our friendly competitors.

#7 johnnydakota

johnnydakota

    Banned

  • Banned
  • 1,498 posts

Posted 30 June 2013 - 10:18 PM

just schedual his surgery now and hope hes back next spring...

#8 jokin

jokin

    Twins News Team

  • Twins News Team
  • 7,029 posts

Posted 30 June 2013 - 11:15 PM

just schedual his surgery now and hope hes back next spring...


If it's a sticky shoulder surgery situation for Meyer, by the time they properly diagnose and schedule it, he probably would have little chance to be ready to pitch next spring.

But it could be even worse than that. Recent studies have been done that show that while around 85% of elbow surgeries end up in pitchers equaling or exceeding previous performance levels......for shoulders, it's less than 50%. This is very, very disconcerting news and the Twins extreme caution is well-justified. If things don't take a turn back to the positive, it's now getting too uncomfortably near the area wherein it's less than a coin flip that Meyer still projects to being the potential Ace pitcher we once all hoped for.

Now, more than ever, why didn't the Twins get John Lannan thrown into the deal, when the Nats were going to avoid arbitration and cut him anyway? At least they would have had a still-young (only 28) and proven innings-eater to show for the "blockbuster" trade.

#9 chuchadoro

chuchadoro

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 112 posts
  • LocationNordeast

Posted 01 July 2013 - 07:56 AM

Who is a good comp for Gibson? I always thought he had a Brandon Webb-type of ceiling. Webb's sinker was absolutely devastating but Gibson throws a little harder than he did. I don't expect Gibson to win a Cy Young but I think some were underselling him a bit.

#10 Thegrin

Thegrin

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 541 posts
  • LocationMinneapolis

Posted 01 July 2013 - 09:12 AM

I wish everyone would stop focusing on the speed of pitches. Location and baseball smarts are more important than mph. Gibson looks like he has a good off-speed out pitch. Let us hope he develops to become a Cy Young candidate, using smars & skills, instead of speed.

#11 nicksaviking

nicksaviking

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 3,693 posts

Posted 01 July 2013 - 09:24 AM

I wish everyone would stop focusing on the speed of pitches. Location and baseball smarts are more important than mph. Gibson looks like he has a good off-speed out pitch. Let us hope he develops to become a Cy Young candidate, using smars & skills, instead of speed.



Terry Ryan, what are you doing on this site?

#12 diehardtwinsfan

diehardtwinsfan

    Twins Moderator

  • Twins Mods
  • 4,631 posts

Posted 01 July 2013 - 09:52 AM

I wish everyone would stop focusing on the speed of pitches. Location and baseball smarts are more important than mph. Gibson looks like he has a good off-speed out pitch. Let us hope he develops to become a Cy Young candidate, using smars & skills, instead of speed.


Part of what makes a good out pitch is a pitch that the batter cannot keep up with. Speed is very much a factor. What's nice is that Gibson does keep his pitches in the low to mid 90s.

#13 Winston Smith

Winston Smith

    Old Geezer

  • Members
  • 1,375 posts
  • LocationOceania

Posted 01 July 2013 - 10:11 AM

It's not like they traded our best outfielder and leadoff guy guy for Meyer.

#14 big dog

big dog

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 1,313 posts

Posted 01 July 2013 - 10:17 AM

It's not like they traded our best outfielder and leadoff guy guy for Meyer.


It's not like a leadoff guy with a .314 OBP is that phenomenal. Even Clete is 20 points above that at the moment, and doing better than that when he leads off. I'll take my chances with Meyer.

#15 orangevening

orangevening

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 130 posts

Posted 01 July 2013 - 10:22 AM

Part of what makes a good out pitch is a pitch that the batter cannot keep up with. Speed is very much a factor. What's nice is that Gibson does keep his pitches in the low to mid 90s.


Most if not all major league hitters can hit a 97 mph fastball down the middle. What is more important IMO is command, movement and speed difference. A 85 mph fastball looks like a 90 mph fastball when you can throw a 70 mph change up. A 90 mph fastball with late movement on the outside corner on the knees is harder to hit than a 100 mph down the middle. Velocity is nice and can cover up mistakes, but not the most important.

#16 PseudoSABR

PseudoSABR

    Twins News Team

  • Twins News Team
  • 1,963 posts

Posted 01 July 2013 - 10:37 AM

It's not like they traded our best outfielder and leadoff guy guy for Meyer.

You haven't checked Span's hitting line this year, have you?

#17 nicksaviking

nicksaviking

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 3,693 posts

Posted 01 July 2013 - 10:38 AM

Most if not all major league hitters can hit a 97 mph fastball down the middle. What is more important IMO is command, movement and speed difference. A 85 mph fastball looks like a 90 mph fastball when you can throw a 70 mph change up. A 90 mph fastball with late movement on the outside corner on the knees is harder to hit than a 100 mph down the middle. Velocity is nice and can cover up mistakes, but not the most important.


No one thinks that command isn't important, but minimalizing the effect of velocity is the same arguement as minimalizing the effect of a higher payroll. Neither guarantee sucess but they are very strong indicators as they provide a very large advantage.

Edited by nicksaviking, 01 July 2013 - 10:47 AM.


#18 Winston Smith

Winston Smith

    Old Geezer

  • Members
  • 1,375 posts
  • LocationOceania

Posted 01 July 2013 - 11:35 AM

You haven't checked Span's hitting line this year, have you?


Have you looked at what our leadoff guys have done this year?

May all our prospects be All Stars and the beer be free.


#19 Beezer07

Beezer07

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 626 posts

Posted 01 July 2013 - 11:58 AM

Have you looked at what our leadoff guys have done this year?


Option A: Keep Span. Result? Have a bad leadoff guy.

Option B: Trade Span. Result? Have bad leadoff guys AND a minor league pitcher with good potential.

B seems better to me.

#20 Seth Stohs

Seth Stohs

    Owner

  • Administrators
  • 7,450 posts

Posted 01 July 2013 - 12:43 PM

Velocity allows for a little more margin for error in location, but coupled with good command and two good secondary pitches, that makes an ace. But velocity alone is not enough.

I like and am excited about Randy Rosario, Yorman Landa, Jose Berrios, Felix Jorge and Kohl Stewart. However, the only one in that group whose potential is equal to Alex Meyer's is probably Stewart's. What's exciting is having a bunch of guys with big potential so that at the end of the day 2 or 3 of them can be successful big league pitchers.

#21 diehardtwinsfan

diehardtwinsfan

    Twins Moderator

  • Twins Mods
  • 4,631 posts

Posted 01 July 2013 - 12:47 PM

Most if not all major league hitters can hit a 97 mph fastball down the middle. What is more important IMO is command, movement and speed difference. A 85 mph fastball looks like a 90 mph fastball when you can throw a 70 mph change up. A 90 mph fastball with late movement on the outside corner on the knees is harder to hit than a 100 mph down the middle. Velocity is nice and can cover up mistakes, but not the most important.


Please re-read my post instead of arguing against a point you think I'm trying to make. I never said it was the most important. I just pointed out that it is a major factor.

#22 chuchadoro

chuchadoro

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 112 posts
  • LocationNordeast

Posted 01 July 2013 - 01:18 PM

I wish everyone would stop focusing on the speed of pitches. Location and baseball smarts are more important than mph. Gibson looks like he has a good off-speed out pitch. Let us hope he develops to become a Cy Young candidate, using smars & skills, instead of speed.


Is this because I mentioned in passing that Gibby throws harder than Webb? Did you see the first part of the statement that was very complimentary of Webb's sinker?

I don't remember writing "Gibson throws harder, therefore he'll be better than Webb." Apparently, you misinterpreted what I wrote or are aggravated by "everyone's" emphasis on power pitchers.

#23 fairweather

fairweather

    Banned

  • Banned
  • 253 posts

Posted 01 July 2013 - 01:58 PM

Watching Gibson he reminds me of a young Kris Benson. Now we all hope he has a better, healthier, more successful career than Benson, but that's who he reminds me of.

#24 chuchadoro

chuchadoro

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 112 posts
  • LocationNordeast

Posted 01 July 2013 - 02:43 PM

Watching Gibson he reminds me of a young Kris Benson. Now we all hope he has a better, healthier, more successful career than Benson, but that's who he reminds me of.


Thanks. We also hope he's less of a d bag and is able to steer clear of mentally unstable strippers.

#25 nicksaviking

nicksaviking

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 3,693 posts

Posted 01 July 2013 - 02:47 PM

Velocity allows for a little more margin for error in location, but coupled with good command and two good secondary pitches, that makes an ace. But velocity alone is not enough.


No doubt about that but with a lot of good coaching and luck, a pitcher can improve comand and learn secondary pitches. Velocity is generally a natural attribute though, which is why a lot of baseball people seem to focus on that first and hope the other two traits later come together.

#26 drjim

drjim

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 2,088 posts
  • LocationSt. Paul

Posted 01 July 2013 - 03:51 PM

Now, more than ever, why didn't the Twins get John Lannan thrown into the deal, when the Nats were going to avoid arbitration and cut him anyway? At least they would have had a still-young (only 28) and proven innings-eater to show for the "blockbuster" trade.


Securing the right to pay Lannan twice as much through arby as he got as a free agent doesn't exactly seem like added value.

#27 drjim

drjim

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 2,088 posts
  • LocationSt. Paul

Posted 01 July 2013 - 03:53 PM

It's not like they traded our best outfielder and leadoff guy guy for Meyer.


Shoulders are dicey but probably a little premature to call Meyer dead.

#28 Kwak

Kwak

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 1,291 posts

Posted 01 July 2013 - 03:56 PM

Maybe the Twins should sign a free agent pitcher this off-season to take Meyer's place in the 2014 rotation?

#29 orangevening

orangevening

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 130 posts

Posted 01 July 2013 - 04:16 PM

Terry Ryan, what are you doing on this site?


That always cracks me up...

#30 jokin

jokin

    Twins News Team

  • Twins News Team
  • 7,029 posts

Posted 01 July 2013 - 05:41 PM

Securing the right to pay Lannan twice as much through arby as he got as a free agent doesn't exactly seem like added value.


Compared to what the Twins have now? The worst SP staff in all of baseball?

Assuming Lannan doesn't hurt his leg in April, Lannan would have been a huge value, if he had just performed at his career numbers (and he had started the season strong before the injury). Either as a proven, but still young, back-end innings-eater for a Correia-type cost.... or as a future potential trading chip or throw-in, the Twins had more than enough payroll space to take on his cost----and it's been more than demonstrated in real-time-spades that the Twins rotation options were... and for the most part still are.... simply awful.

Sorry, Lannan would have been very good value at whatever cost arbitration would have decided upon.