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Article: Twins' Rotation is Begging For Change

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#1 Nick Nelson

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Posted 20 June 2013 - 08:55 PM

You can view the page at http://twinsdaily.co...ging-For-Change

#2 YourHouseIsMyHouse

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Posted 20 June 2013 - 09:24 PM

Twins
+Gibson
-Diamond
______
=:)

#3 Kwak

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Posted 20 June 2013 - 09:29 PM

Twins
+Gibson
-Diamond
______
=:)

Weren't you one of many posting preseason that Diamond was a "lock", a "given",
and basically "the rock of the rotation for 2013"?--and beyond?
I'm curious how many of the frequent posters on TD will be casting stones Diamond's way?

This is borderline trolling. Please be careful about "casting stones." Your friendly neighborhood moderator.

Edited by glunn, 21 June 2013 - 01:42 AM.


#4 cmathewson

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Posted 20 June 2013 - 09:30 PM

This. It is well past time to make this move. Perhaps they want a lefty in the rotation. Fine, make it Albers. But find a way to get Gibson up here before he hits his innings limit, please.

#5 stringer bell

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Posted 20 June 2013 - 09:37 PM

I like Diamond and I thought he would regress a bit, but still be the Twins' best starter this year. He just hasn't been close to the pitcher he was last year. Far too many crooked numbers.

#6 YourHouseIsMyHouse

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Posted 20 June 2013 - 09:44 PM

Weren't you one of many posting preseason that Diamond was a "lock", a "given",
and basically "the rock of the rotation for 2013"?--and beyond?
I'm curious how many of the frequent posters on TD will be casting stones Diamond's way?


I said he could surely be a back end starter, probably the best on this rotation (not saying much) because that didn't seem out of reach. Since a player had success one year, I'm not allowed to be optimistic about him? Am I bounded to support him while he's clearly not cutting it? He's obviously a different player now and adjustments need to be made. Forgive me for being wrong about a player being successful. Everything in baseball is truly predictable.

#7 twinsnorth49

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Posted 20 June 2013 - 09:48 PM

Weren't you one of many posting preseason that Diamond was a "lock", a "given",
and basically "the rock of the rotation for 2013"?--and beyond?
I'm curious how many of the frequent posters on TD will be casting stones Diamond's way?


Do you have a point or are you just casting stones?

#8 Brad Swanson

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Posted 20 June 2013 - 10:00 PM

I was a huge Diamond supporter prior to the season. I even wrote about it a few times. However, 2013 Scott Diamond doesn't look like 2012 first-half Scott Diamond to me. I hope it's injury-related and he can get back to that place, but he doesn't really deserve to be in the rotation right now.

His walk rate is up, his strikeout rate is down and his ground ball rate is down. His margin for error was extremely low when he was going well. His strand rate is low and his BABIP is high, so some of his struggles are reversible. However, with Albers and Gibson pitching well in AAA and Deduno and Walters getting their shots after doing the same, he should probably be replaced at this point.

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#9 troyhobbs

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Posted 20 June 2013 - 10:14 PM

It's been published before that Diamond had a good bit of luck last year and his stuff isn't nasty by any means, especially if he isn't hitting his spots. I'm not saying he's the one who should get demoted/moved but what is there to lose by calling up Gibson, a kid with high upside that posesses swing and miss stuff? I don't understand the argument of being patient with a first round draft pick that is major league ready on one of the worst rotations in baseball.

Edited by troyhobbs, 20 June 2013 - 10:16 PM.


#10 jokin

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Posted 20 June 2013 - 10:15 PM

Meanwhile, Kyle Gibson logged another brilliant outing in Rochester Thursday, allowing just one unearned run in seven innings.


Brilliant? Maybe.

Ahh... but Consistent? 7 of his last 8 starts ranging from: "very good" to "lights out" clearly doesn't meet that particular standard so publicly set by Twins management as "the reason" for keeping Gibson down.

Gibson will now be around 100 IP in AAA after his next start, and within 4 months of his 26th birthday. The only thing that makes anything close to sense at this point is that the Twins are looking to maximize current SP potential values by showcasing them through the deadline, in anticipation of a trade.

With now only around 5-6 major league starts left available to Gibson, the FO may as well start thinking about what new excuses they'll be using to keep him down in Rochester in 2014 in order to keep the arb clock from ticking.

Edited by jokin, 20 June 2013 - 11:18 PM.


#11 AScheib50

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Posted 20 June 2013 - 10:25 PM

I think more people need to read Seth's summary of Gibson's start. Now, I know not everyone here is as optimistic as Seth, but I think we can all agree with what he said about Gibson being in a better place than he was 6-7 starts ago. I would love for him to be up too, but he is getting better in AAA and I just hope we can all stop beating the dead horse that is the consistency line. Yeah, the Twins said it, but can be let it go away? He'll be up soon.

I dunno, I'm not a cynical person so I just don't see Terry Ryan sitting in his office thinking of ways to screw Gibson out of service time. His not being up yet isn't really a sky is falling kind of dilemma. It'll work itself out.

#12 fairweather

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Posted 20 June 2013 - 10:29 PM

.314/.310/.571 is VERY disconcerting!

#13 Shane Wahl

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Posted 20 June 2013 - 11:03 PM

Diamond and Pelfrey both have problems and need to be DLed. Gibson and Albers can come up.

#14 johnnydakota

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Posted 20 June 2013 - 11:09 PM

Isint this the year we figure out who are the guys who will help us in the future?

#15 jokin

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Posted 20 June 2013 - 11:10 PM

I think more people need to read Seth's summary of Gibson's start. Now, I know not everyone here is as optimistic as Seth, but I think we can all agree with what he said about Gibson being in a better place than he was 6-7 starts ago. I would love for him to be up too, but he is getting better in AAA and I just hope we can all stop beating the dead horse that is the consistency line. Yeah, the Twins said it, but can be let it go away? He'll be up soon.

I dunno, I'm not a cynical person so I just don't see Terry Ryan sitting in his office thinking of ways to screw Gibson out of service time. His not being up yet isn't really a sky is falling kind of dilemma. It'll work itself out.


You might be searching for agreement on the statement in bold, but the facts don't hold up. He pitched a brilliant complete game shutout 9 starts ago- in early May. And then he followed that up with a near no-hitter, complete game shutout, 7 starts ago and then an 8 inning shutout 6 starts ago. He's had AAA figured out since early May, these are the facts.

Ryan has his reasons, no doubt, but none of them with respect to Gibson appear to be associated with making the big league club, or Gibson's career arc, better, in 2013.

As johnnydakota stated so well, isn't this the year to figure out who has the chops to help the club return to competitiveness as soon as possible? It's hard for a player to improve when he is forced to continue to compete at a level he's clearly mastered. Frequently, it's just human nature to see that staleness, lack of focus and bad habits can set in. (See Sano in 2012 and 2013, Buxton in 2013-- challenging guys who clearly are cuts above their current level can only serve to bring out the raw talent at a faster pace).

Edited by jokin, 21 June 2013 - 12:05 AM.


#16 IdahoPilgrim

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Posted 21 June 2013 - 07:08 AM

You might be searching for agreement on the statement in bold, but the facts don't hold up.


He'll get it from me. When we started having this discussion about Gibson at the start of May he clearly wasn't ready - good start alternating with bad start. The Twins were right to keep him in Rochester.

Now he's ready, and so is Albers. I'd welcome them both in the rotation in place of Diamond and Pelfrey.

#17 mike wants wins

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Posted 21 June 2013 - 07:12 AM

We don't know that he would not have figured it out here, whatever that means.....he's ready, and Plefrey and Diamond are bad at their job, but that does not yet appear to matter to Terry Ryan. He should be up now.

#18 Jeremy Nygaard

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Posted 21 June 2013 - 07:21 AM

The Twins are going to send Diamond down for a month... not because he's been brutal, but because it would mean an extra year of team control. Send him down for six and he'll avoid super-2 status after next season too. Win, win, win.

#19 Winston Smith

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Posted 21 June 2013 - 07:24 AM

Well Diamond is being consistent and that's all that counts.

#20 mike wants wins

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Posted 21 June 2013 - 07:24 AM

Scott Diamond, super 2? Those two phrases do not go together.......

What I just typed is probably an opinion, not a fact. I mean, I'm usually right, so you should maybe assume it is or will be a fact soon, but that's up to you. :)


#21 JB_Iowa

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Posted 21 June 2013 - 07:55 AM

Maybe they don't want to bring up Gibson until they finally have a new pitching coach at the major league level. (One can only hope).

#22 ThePuck

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Posted 21 June 2013 - 07:59 AM

Maybe they don't want to bring up Gibson until they finally have a new pitching coach at the major league level. (One can only hope).


Do you think, at this point, he's sitting there wondering what in the heck he has to do to get promoted?

#23 mike wants wins

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Posted 21 June 2013 - 08:06 AM

I would be very frustrated right now, if I were Gibson.....can't imagine what his agent is thinking right now. Unfortunately for Kyle, he's 25......he'll be lucky to get to FA.

What I just typed is probably an opinion, not a fact. I mean, I'm usually right, so you should maybe assume it is or will be a fact soon, but that's up to you. :)


#24 Brock Beauchamp

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Posted 21 June 2013 - 08:08 AM

I would be very frustrated right now, if I were Gibson.....can't imagine what his agent is thinking right now. Unfortunately for Kyle, he's 25......he'll be lucky to get to FA.


A lot of people are assuming that the manager or another Twins official hasn't spoken to him about what to expect.

It's very possible they haven't... But it's also very possible that they have.

#25 Rosterman

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Posted 21 June 2013 - 08:11 AM

I like the thought that the Orioles are interested in Plefry. Someone needs to grab him...away from us. Maybe the Twins can trade Pelfry for a package of casilla, Valencia and...Lew Ford!

Diamond just can't get past the fifth inning. Gibson is pitching past the 5th inning and eating up his season innings too fast. Are the Twins going to shut him down?

The other starters on the staff: Hendriks, DeVries and Hernandez are all comparable to Diamond, at the moment. Clearly, the Twins do need to do something. I don't see the triple threat I just mentioned being the future of the Twins, but then again, didn't see Deduno and Walters teaming with Correia to be the Twins rotation this year, either.

Do we still think the Twins will find a way to bring back Nick Blackburn to make, what might amount, to a single $5 million dollar start in the majors?

#26 mike wants wins

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Posted 21 June 2013 - 08:16 AM

A lot of people are assuming that the manager or another Twins official hasn't spoken to him about what to expect.

It's very possible they haven't... But it's also very possible that they have.


Would it matter? Unless they have said, "we'll pay you more than we need to, don't worry", does it matter that they've explained to him why he's still down? How do you feel when your boss explains why you won't be promoted this year?

What I just typed is probably an opinion, not a fact. I mean, I'm usually right, so you should maybe assume it is or will be a fact soon, but that's up to you. :)


#27 jerickasdad34

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Posted 21 June 2013 - 08:18 AM

What I have noticed about Diamond is that most of his starts go well for 4-5 innings, but he runs into a lot of trouble in innings 6 and 7...id honeslty lime to know his splits for those innings....hes 26, he has some success in the past, id give him a pass right now so i wont be jumping off the wagon just yet

#28 Badsmerf

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Posted 21 June 2013 - 08:24 AM

What I have noticed about Diamond is that most of his starts go well for 4-5 innings, but he runs into a lot of trouble in innings 6 and 7...id honeslty lime to know his splits for those innings....hes 26, he has some success in the past, id give him a pass right now so i wont be jumping off the wagon just yet

How many starts does he get? He had a flukish good year last year, that doesn't mean he will continue to have good years. His past is more indicative of his results this year than last. He's had 13 starts, when is it time to jump off the wagon?
Do or do not. There is no try.

#29 Brock Beauchamp

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Posted 21 June 2013 - 08:25 AM

Would it matter? Unless they have said, "we'll pay you more than we need to, don't worry", does it matter that they've explained to him why he's still down? How do you feel when your boss explains why you won't be promoted this year?


It absolutely matters. There's a huge difference between being passed over for a promotion and ignored entirely versus being passed over for a promotion while being told "this is our reasoning for doing this right now and you'll get the promotion soon".

Both are disappointing but one gives hope for the near future.

#30 stringer bell

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Posted 21 June 2013 - 08:31 AM

The Twins are going to send Diamond down for a month... not because he's been brutal, but because it would mean an extra year of team control. Send him down for six and he'll avoid super-2 status after next season too. Win, win, win.

Diamond had 1.016 in service going into this year. As I understand it, he would need to be down for three weeks to fall below the years threshold, but I'm not exactly sure. As far as Super 2, the way I see it is that if he logs another month this year plus the full year of 2014, he would be eligible for arbitration. It would not surprise me if that entered into any equation on the demotion of last year best starter. However, I see absolutely no reason to delay Gibson's major league debut.