43 replies to this topic

[stringer bell]

The Twins again started the season with a new tandem in the middle infield. The two guys this year, Pedro Florimon and Brian Dozier. In 2012, Dozier and Florimon were both shortstops with Dozier playing the middle portion of the schedule as the regular shortstop and Florimon finishing the season, approximately the last third of the schedule, as the primary shortstop.

The decision was made to move Dozier to second base. He opened 2013 spring training as the favorite to secure the position and did become the Opening Day second sacker. Florimon was awarded shortstop. Nearing the halfway point of the season, both players' numbers are underwhelming. My question as a thread topic is, which of these two will have the longer tenure as a regular with the Twins?

Here are some particulars: Dozier turned 26 in May. He hit a disappointing .234 in 2012 with a .603 OPS. He didn't field well at short and was demoted in August and didn't return when rosters were expanded. Dozier has opened eyes as a second baseman, but his hitting is pretty much the same--.230 BA and .624 OPS. Dozier has no prospects behind him in Rochester, but Top Ten prospect Eddie Rosario looms in New Britain. June has been Dozier's best month so far, hitting .297 with an .894 OPS.

Florimon is also 26. He received his first extended major league time in 2012, hitting .219 with a .579 OPS in 54 games. He has demonstrated good range and an extremely strong throwing arm at short, but has been a bit inconsistent in the field. Florimon started 2013 by hitting relatively well, but in June, Pedro has fallen off--hitting just .114 with a .388 OPS. In addition, his defense has taken a bit of a downturn. Overall, Florimon is hitting . 227 with a .632 OPS. There doesn't appear to be a prospect on the horizon to replace this year's incumbent.

Obviously, the tougher defensive position is shortstop and offensive production from a second baseman needs to be higher in order to maintain a spot in the lineup. I think that Dozier's offense and defense will end up being better than Florimon. I expect that Dozier will remain a Twins regular until Rosario arrives, probably 2015. I don't think Florimon lasts as a regular through 2013.

Edited by stringer bell, 17 June 2013 - 10:09 PM.

[jokin]

There doesn't appear to be a prospect on the horizon to replace this year's incumbent (Florimon).

I don't think Florimon lasts as a regular through 2013.

Interesting topic, but these 2 comments don't square.

[stringer bell]

Interesting topic, but these 2 comments don't square.

Trade deadline could bring another guy to replace PF and the Twins could go with Escobar/Carroll if Florimon regresses further.

[jorgenswest]

They need to learn as much as they can about Florimon this year. He is not a utility option. He either starts at SS or take him off the 40.

Escobar's long term major league role will likely be similar to Carroll or Punto. He defends well at several positions. He is young enough to improve with the bat.

I am not sure that Dozier hits well enough to start at 2B or defends well enough at SS to be a utility player. They need to learn as much as they can about Dozier. He either hits well enough to start at 2B or take him off the 40.

There is no reason to give Carroll significant playing time.

Given their age, the growth window is closing on Florimon and Dozier. If they don't show more in the second half, the Twins will need to fill both middle infield spots next winter.

[big dog]

Trade deadline could bring another guy to replace PF and the Twins could go with Escobar/Carroll if Florimon regresses further.

If the Twins go with Escobar/Carroll, Florimon will need to be in the hospital. I'm not a huge Florimon fan by any means, but I think he's clearly the best of the three. I'm over Carroll, and Escobar just hasn't done much at all after that hot start.

[twinsnorth49]

. My question as a thread topic is, which of these two will have the longer tenure as a regular with the Twins?

Hopefully neither one.

[Red Bull]

Man how could anyone choose one over the other? They are so good, its like trying to choose Kinsler or Andrus over in TEX...

[jokin]

Trade deadline could bring another guy to replace PF and the Twins could go with Escobar/Carroll if Florimon regresses further.

I see, but Escobar and Carroll are matching Florimon's regression. Kind of a mess.

[jokin]

Given their age, the growth window is closing on Florimon and Dozier. If they don't show more in the second half, the Twins will need to fill both middle infield spots next winter.

Good points. But here we go again. It's going to take an epic collapse for the Twins to admit their mistakes in tapping these two to be their "guys". And then you have the consolation prize in Escobar from "The Trade."

BTW, after another strong start by Francisco Liriano tonight, here are his numbers: 2.44 ERA/1.94 FIP/1.25 WHIP/10.31 K*9/.225 OBA. And yet to give up a HR.

Edited by jokin, 17 June 2013 - 11:34 PM.

[Waverley Wildcat]

"Dozier has no prospects behind him in Rochester" I know its early days for Beresford at Rochester but he can play either SS or 2nd expertly and could fill either position

[stringer bell]

"Dozier has no prospects behind him in Rochester" I know its early days for Beresford at Rochester but he can play either SS or 2nd expertly and could fill either position

Isn't Beresford an Austrailian version of Escobar? I understood that the bat didn't profile well enough for him to be considered more than a utility guy going forward.

[benchwarmerjim]

BTW, after another strong start by Francisco Liriano tonight, here are his numbers: 2.44 ERA/1.94 FIP/1.25 WHIP/10.31 K*9/.225 OBA. And yet to give up a HR.

its up to 2 HR, and the one I saw was a second deck, (what seemed like a) 500 footer. When the Twins traded Liriano to the White Sox, he pretty much looked the same when he was with the Twins: got some strikeouts, walked people, and looked lost on the mound at times. Something has clicked in Pittsburgh so far and thats good for him, but Im not faulting the Twins for trading him. I guess Im just happy they actually got something in return for him instead of letting him go as a free agent.

[ericchri]

Dozier seems to be trending up at the moment where Florimon is trending down. But they've still got 3.5 months of baseball to play to see if the trends continue.

I've been happy with Dozier's defense at 2nd, we'll see if his hitting can warrant more time or not, but I'm hopeful. Florimon continues to frustrate with errors on what appears to be routine plays, and then makes great plays on non-routine stuff. Imagine if we didn't have a decent defensive 1B. He needs to start hitting again, though, cause recently it's been really bad.

Rosario is almost certainly viewed as the starting 2B no later than mid-2015, and probably much earlier. But finding a starting SS is a little harder as we have a lot of guys playing the position who don't necessarily profile as a long-term major leaguers. Niko Goodrum might have the highest ceiling of the bunch as a SS, but he also seems the most unpolished right now. I'm really interested in Polanco, but he never seems to get a ringing endorsement at SS, it always feels more like "he can play there if nobody else can." Hopefully it's just the spotlight shining so brightly on some of the better-known prospects leading to the relative lack of SS fanfare.

If Dozier's bat keeps trending up such that he got his OPS in the .700 neighborhood would we be willing to give him another chance at the SS job when Rosario's ready, or has that boat already sailed?

[jorgenswest]

Good points. But here we go again. It's going to take an epic collapse for the Twins to admit their mistakes in tapping these two to be their "guys". And then you have the consolation prize in Escobar from "The Trade."

BTW, after another strong start by Francisco Liriano tonight, here are his numbers: 2.44 ERA/1.94 FIP/1.25 WHIP/10.31 K*9/.225 OBA. And yet to give up a HR.

I am not sure how Liriano's performance this year is relevant. The only way the Twins could keep him under control for this year was to make him a qualifying offer. The contract he signed is evidence that his value was no where near the level of qualifying offer.

The Twins traded two months of control for two C prospects. It is only those months that are relevant to the trade discussion. You might argue that they should have signed him as a free agent last winter, but that has nothing to do with Escobar and Hernandez.

[Mike Sixel]

floriman is not a good player.....but as long as everyone else does their job, he's fine....at least I think that's the line we've been fed before (for a better player, btw).

[Aaron Cross]

Dont they have a pretty good SS prospect named Santana? Cant remember his first name.

[Aaron Cross]

Between Goodrum, polanco, and santana, they should be able to get lucky on one of them, right?

[Oldgoat_MN]

There is a team winning quite a few of their games called the Yankees. Their SS is nowhere near the best in the league and never has been. Still, they get by.

I'd love to have an Ozzie Smith playing SS for the Twins, but we don't have one in our organization and the original is too old.

My point isn't just to put anyone out there and pray, but rather that sometimes you take a little less quality in the field if that player can make up for it at the plate. (I suspect that Gardy would disagree, but most here get it)

It's worked out pretty well for over 15 years for that Yankee team.

[jun]

I absolutely disagree, I really believe Florimon is the worst of all. Escobar is much younger and he plays 3B/2B/SS well, he delivered quite a few clutch hits for the Twins already. Carroll is what he is, an old and experienced veteran player who the young players could look up to and get advice from. I think he is going to retire soon.

[beckmt]

Dozier has the shorter window. The earliest one of the Shortstops could be here is 2015, so if the Twins do not go the FA way, we are looking at what we have in the near future. Florimon is serviceable so do not worry about it until the Twins are ready for the next level, which I see as 2015 at the earliest.