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Florimon or Dozier?

dozier florimon rosario second base shortstop
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#1 stringer bell

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Posted 17 June 2013 - 10:05 PM

The Twins again started the season with a new tandem in the middle infield. The two guys this year, Pedro Florimon and Brian Dozier. In 2012, Dozier and Florimon were both shortstops with Dozier playing the middle portion of the schedule as the regular shortstop and Florimon finishing the season, approximately the last third of the schedule, as the primary shortstop.

The decision was made to move Dozier to second base. He opened 2013 spring training as the favorite to secure the position and did become the Opening Day second sacker. Florimon was awarded shortstop. Nearing the halfway point of the season, both players' numbers are underwhelming. My question as a thread topic is, which of these two will have the longer tenure as a regular with the Twins?

Here are some particulars: Dozier turned 26 in May. He hit a disappointing .234 in 2012 with a .603 OPS. He didn't field well at short and was demoted in August and didn't return when rosters were expanded. Dozier has opened eyes as a second baseman, but his hitting is pretty much the same--.230 BA and .624 OPS. Dozier has no prospects behind him in Rochester, but Top Ten prospect Eddie Rosario looms in New Britain. June has been Dozier's best month so far, hitting .297 with an .894 OPS.

Florimon is also 26. He received his first extended major league time in 2012, hitting .219 with a .579 OPS in 54 games. He has demonstrated good range and an extremely strong throwing arm at short, but has been a bit inconsistent in the field. Florimon started 2013 by hitting relatively well, but in June, Pedro has fallen off--hitting just .114 with a .388 OPS. In addition, his defense has taken a bit of a downturn. Overall, Florimon is hitting . 227 with a .632 OPS. There doesn't appear to be a prospect on the horizon to replace this year's incumbent.

Obviously, the tougher defensive position is shortstop and offensive production from a second baseman needs to be higher in order to maintain a spot in the lineup. I think that Dozier's offense and defense will end up being better than Florimon. I expect that Dozier will remain a Twins regular until Rosario arrives, probably 2015. I don't think Florimon lasts as a regular through 2013.

Edited by stringer bell, 17 June 2013 - 10:09 PM.


#2 jokin

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Posted 17 June 2013 - 10:17 PM

There doesn't appear to be a prospect on the horizon to replace this year's incumbent (Florimon).


I don't think Florimon lasts as a regular through 2013.


Interesting topic, but these 2 comments don't square.

#3 stringer bell

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Posted 17 June 2013 - 10:20 PM

Interesting topic, but these 2 comments don't square.

Trade deadline could bring another guy to replace PF and the Twins could go with Escobar/Carroll if Florimon regresses further.

#4 jorgenswest

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Posted 17 June 2013 - 10:39 PM

They need to learn as much as they can about Florimon this year. He is not a utility option. He either starts at SS or take him off the 40.

Escobar's long term major league role will likely be similar to Carroll or Punto. He defends well at several positions. He is young enough to improve with the bat.

I am not sure that Dozier hits well enough to start at 2B or defends well enough at SS to be a utility player. They need to learn as much as they can about Dozier. He either hits well enough to start at 2B or take him off the 40.

There is no reason to give Carroll significant playing time.

Given their age, the growth window is closing on Florimon and Dozier. If they don't show more in the second half, the Twins will need to fill both middle infield spots next winter.

#5 big dog

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Posted 17 June 2013 - 10:39 PM

Trade deadline could bring another guy to replace PF and the Twins could go with Escobar/Carroll if Florimon regresses further.


If the Twins go with Escobar/Carroll, Florimon will need to be in the hospital. I'm not a huge Florimon fan by any means, but I think he's clearly the best of the three. I'm over Carroll, and Escobar just hasn't done much at all after that hot start.

#6 twinsnorth49

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Posted 17 June 2013 - 11:06 PM

. My question as a thread topic is, which of these two will have the longer tenure as a regular with the Twins?


Hopefully neither one.

#7 Red Bull

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Posted 17 June 2013 - 11:13 PM

Man how could anyone choose one over the other? They are so good, its like trying to choose Kinsler or Andrus over in TEX...
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#8 jokin

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Posted 17 June 2013 - 11:25 PM

Trade deadline could bring another guy to replace PF and the Twins could go with Escobar/Carroll if Florimon regresses further.


I see, but Escobar and Carroll are matching Florimon's regression. Kind of a mess.

#9 jokin

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Posted 17 June 2013 - 11:32 PM

Given their age, the growth window is closing on Florimon and Dozier. If they don't show more in the second half, the Twins will need to fill both middle infield spots next winter.


Good points. But here we go again. It's going to take an epic collapse for the Twins to admit their mistakes in tapping these two to be their "guys". And then you have the consolation prize in Escobar from "The Trade."

BTW, after another strong start by Francisco Liriano tonight, here are his numbers: 2.44 ERA/1.94 FIP/1.25 WHIP/10.31 K*9/.225 OBA. And yet to give up a HR.

Edited by jokin, 17 June 2013 - 11:34 PM.


#10 Waverley Wildcat

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Posted 18 June 2013 - 02:20 AM

"Dozier has no prospects behind him in Rochester" I know its early days for Beresford at Rochester but he can play either SS or 2nd expertly and could fill either position

#11 stringer bell

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Posted 18 June 2013 - 04:35 AM

"Dozier has no prospects behind him in Rochester" I know its early days for Beresford at Rochester but he can play either SS or 2nd expertly and could fill either position

Isn't Beresford an Austrailian version of Escobar? I understood that the bat didn't profile well enough for him to be considered more than a utility guy going forward.

#12 benchwarmerjim

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Posted 18 June 2013 - 06:01 AM

BTW, after another strong start by Francisco Liriano tonight, here are his numbers: 2.44 ERA/1.94 FIP/1.25 WHIP/10.31 K*9/.225 OBA. And yet to give up a HR.


its up to 2 HR, and the one I saw was a second deck, (what seemed like a) 500 footer. When the Twins traded Liriano to the White Sox, he pretty much looked the same when he was with the Twins: got some strikeouts, walked people, and looked lost on the mound at times. Something has clicked in Pittsburgh so far and thats good for him, but Im not faulting the Twins for trading him. I guess Im just happy they actually got something in return for him instead of letting him go as a free agent.

#13 ericchri

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Posted 18 June 2013 - 07:00 AM

Dozier seems to be trending up at the moment where Florimon is trending down. But they've still got 3.5 months of baseball to play to see if the trends continue.

I've been happy with Dozier's defense at 2nd, we'll see if his hitting can warrant more time or not, but I'm hopeful. Florimon continues to frustrate with errors on what appears to be routine plays, and then makes great plays on non-routine stuff. Imagine if we didn't have a decent defensive 1B. He needs to start hitting again, though, cause recently it's been really bad.

Rosario is almost certainly viewed as the starting 2B no later than mid-2015, and probably much earlier. But finding a starting SS is a little harder as we have a lot of guys playing the position who don't necessarily profile as a long-term major leaguers. Niko Goodrum might have the highest ceiling of the bunch as a SS, but he also seems the most unpolished right now. I'm really interested in Polanco, but he never seems to get a ringing endorsement at SS, it always feels more like "he can play there if nobody else can." Hopefully it's just the spotlight shining so brightly on some of the better-known prospects leading to the relative lack of SS fanfare.

If Dozier's bat keeps trending up such that he got his OPS in the .700 neighborhood would we be willing to give him another chance at the SS job when Rosario's ready, or has that boat already sailed?

#14 jorgenswest

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Posted 18 June 2013 - 07:05 AM

Good points. But here we go again. It's going to take an epic collapse for the Twins to admit their mistakes in tapping these two to be their "guys". And then you have the consolation prize in Escobar from "The Trade."

BTW, after another strong start by Francisco Liriano tonight, here are his numbers: 2.44 ERA/1.94 FIP/1.25 WHIP/10.31 K*9/.225 OBA. And yet to give up a HR.


I am not sure how Liriano's performance this year is relevant. The only way the Twins could keep him under control for this year was to make him a qualifying offer. The contract he signed is evidence that his value was no where near the level of qualifying offer.

The Twins traded two months of control for two C prospects. It is only those months that are relevant to the trade discussion. You might argue that they should have signed him as a free agent last winter, but that has nothing to do with Escobar and Hernandez.

#15 mike wants wins

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Posted 18 June 2013 - 07:35 AM

floriman is not a good player.....but as long as everyone else does their job, he's fine....at least I think that's the line we've been fed before (for a better player, btw).
Lighten up Francis....

#16 Aaron Cross

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Posted 18 June 2013 - 07:35 AM

Dont they have a pretty good SS prospect named Santana? Cant remember his first name.

#17 Aaron Cross

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Posted 18 June 2013 - 07:44 AM

Between Goodrum, polanco, and santana, they should be able to get lucky on one of them, right?

#18 Oldgoat_MN

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Posted 18 June 2013 - 08:12 AM

There is a team winning quite a few of their games called the Yankees. Their SS is nowhere near the best in the league and never has been. Still, they get by.

I'd love to have an Ozzie Smith playing SS for the Twins, but we don't have one in our organization and the original is too old.

My point isn't just to put anyone out there and pray, but rather that sometimes you take a little less quality in the field if that player can make up for it at the plate. (I suspect that Gardy would disagree, but most here get it)

It's worked out pretty well for over 15 years for that Yankee team.

#19 jun

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Posted 18 June 2013 - 08:27 AM

I absolutely disagree, I really believe Florimon is the worst of all. Escobar is much younger and he plays 3B/2B/SS well, he delivered quite a few clutch hits for the Twins already. Carroll is what he is, an old and experienced veteran player who the young players could look up to and get advice from. I think he is going to retire soon.

#20 beckmt

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Posted 18 June 2013 - 08:35 AM

Dozier has the shorter window. The earliest one of the Shortstops could be here is 2015, so if the Twins do not go the FA way, we are looking at what we have in the near future. Florimon is serviceable so do not worry about it until the Twins are ready for the next level, which I see as 2015 at the earliest.

#21 nicksaviking

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Posted 18 June 2013 - 08:42 AM

There is a team winning quite a few of their games called the Yankees. Their SS is nowhere near the best in the league and never has been. Still, they get by.

I'd love to have an Ozzie Smith playing SS for the Twins, but we don't have one in our organization and the original is too old.

My point isn't just to put anyone out there and pray, but rather that sometimes you take a little less quality in the field if that player can make up for it at the plate. (I suspect that Gardy would disagree, but most here get it)

It's worked out pretty well for over 15 years for that Yankee team.


I assume this is the Twins plan with Sano but the Twins don't seem to have a SS anywhere close to MLB ready that profiles to have an above average bat let alone Derek Jeter who was a #6 overall pick and the #6 prospect overall prior to his call up. This team gets criticized for thier inablity to draft and develop top of the rotation arms but they are equally inefficient at drafting and developing middle infielders.

Not that I disagree, I'll trade defense for offense any and every day of the week.

#22 John Bonnes

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Posted 18 June 2013 - 08:56 AM

It's an interesting question. Given their minor league careers, Dozier would seem to have more promise, but he's also in a position to be squeezed - and Rosario is looking like the real deal.

I think whoever said "neither" might be right. I'm still not convinced that Florimon will last beyond this year - the Twins aren't afraid to go nab a bargain gloveman at SS in the offseason. So I guess I'd go with Dozier. If he improves enough or if Rosario does well in AA, Dozier could be kept around to keep the seat warm, even if it's just through next May.

#23 mike wants wins

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Posted 18 June 2013 - 09:11 AM

Dozier can play the utility role, or the SS role when Rosario is here. Floriman? Not so much. Plouffe can play 1B/DH/utility also. That seems like the right combo platter to me.
Lighten up Francis....

#24 cmathewson

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Posted 18 June 2013 - 09:24 AM

I don't get this thread. Neither Dozier not Florimon is the long-term answer. But the Twins have a lot more pressing problems right now. None of the posters seems to take defense into the discussion at all, yet that is far and away the most important aspect of their games. In this respect, both are better than Either Escobar or Carroll, imho.
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#25 Shane Wahl

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Posted 18 June 2013 - 09:30 AM

Santana/Beresford, Rosario, and Beresford/Santana will occupy these three positions and Carroll will be gone. None of those other three will stick unless Dozier starts hitting. Escobar returned to form pretty quickly after the hot start and Florimon will end up around .600 OPS. Beresford is a better Escobar, though he may have to start at short if Santana isn't sticking there defensively.

Offensive production at SS starting mid-2014 and especially in 2015 and 2016 isn't going to matter much.

#26 stringer bell

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Posted 18 June 2013 - 09:51 AM

Santana has an even 20 errors at short for the Rock Cats. While we all know that errors aren't the be-all and end-all when it comes to defense, a high error total is a red flag. Santana's offense hasn't been great, either. The BA is around .280 last I looked, but not a high OBP or Slugging. Just like everyone else, he has more than half a season to make a mark. I wonder if the Twins would consider moving Dozier back to SS, or using him in a utility role. He doesn't have the arm or Florimon or Escobar, but I don't remember many instances when his arm strength cost bases or outs. I saw Polanco in person in CR, and he made two plays in the hole where he couldn't get the runner. Jim Crikket commented on one throw by saying that is why he had been playing second (I'm paraphrasing SDB), so perhaps he isn't a candidate for shortstop.

#27 howieramone1406390264

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Posted 18 June 2013 - 10:04 AM

Santana/Beresford, Rosario, and Beresford/Santana will occupy these three positions and Carroll will be gone. None of those other three will stick unless Dozier starts hitting. Escobar returned to form pretty quickly after the hot start and Florimon will end up around .600 OPS. Beresford is a better Escobar, though he may have to start at short if Santana isn't sticking there defensively.

Offensive production at SS starting mid-2014 and especially in 2015 and 2016 isn't going to matter much.

Just in case it does, it appears we are on the verge of earning another high draft pick for the 2014 draft. Would not be surprised if we draft a SS with some pop with our 1st pick.

#28 Boone

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Posted 18 June 2013 - 10:57 AM

Although Florimon has been dreadful offensively, advanced defensive metrics (from both fangraphs and baseball reference) place him as arguably the best defensive shortstop in the game this year. As a result he has posted 1.4 WAR according to fangraphs and 1.5 WAR according to baseball reference. Those numbers put him easily in the top half of shortstops. I know WAR isn't a perfect stat, but it does indicate that Florimon has been solid. Furthermore, Florimon has shown some improvement offensively since last season: his walk rate, line drive rate, and contact rate have all improved.

Florimon certainly isn't the long-term answer at SS, but if he continues to make small improvements offensively and play excellent defense, he should be an adequate starter during our rebuilding years until one of our better SS prospects is ready.

I really hope that the Twins can grab a SS prospect who can play the position and has a solid bat in the first round next year.

#29 Seth Stohs

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Posted 18 June 2013 - 11:13 AM

Dozier probably has the shorter leash as a starter... But he can be a very solid utility guy. Florimon seems like if he isn't the SS, he won't be a utility guy.

#30 Tibs

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Posted 18 June 2013 - 02:24 PM

One problem I have with Dozier is it seems like he hits more pop flies rather than line drives. I don't know if the stats back me up on that one, though.



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