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Article: Twins Reversing Some Ugly Trends

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#31 MichiganTwins

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Posted 03 June 2013 - 11:57 AM

Agree with the last two posts. I think that this season's main objective is to improve as a team, but also evaluate the young guys including Plouffe and Parms. We need to see what we have once our veterans are gone (excluding Mauer.)

#32 Siehbiscuit

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Posted 03 June 2013 - 03:27 PM

sbk......I know you aren't asking me, but here is my answer:

if they win 75, I'll be happy if:
The young guys are better, and it looks like it was not built on Doumit, Morneau, Willingham

if they win 75, I'll not be happy if:
Hicks, Plouffe, Dozier are not good, and no progress was made in the starting pitching

75 really doesn't do much for me personally, it is not bad enough to get the top pick, and it is not good enough for the games to be interesting in September.

75 really only matters to me in terms of how they get there.....since 75 does nothing for the playoffs this year, the key for me is, how does that 75 indicate they might be likely to do in the next two years?


I agree with this as well. We get so involved with Fangraphs and BRef and all the advance stats, but there are so many variables as well. Hicks is a year closer to showing his potential (or lack thereof), we'll no more about Plouffe, Florimon, Parmalee and others. Wins and losses are what matters and having an opportunity in the postseason. Who cares if the stats say the Orioles weren't as good as they were last year. They made the playoffs and had a CHANCE. This year I want as a fan to see improvement in the eyeball test, because I watch the games with my eyes and the product means more watching improvement than just seeing it on a sheet of paper.

#33 YourHouseIsMyHouse

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Posted 03 June 2013 - 05:44 PM

The biggest reason for the success is the power explosion being put on by the Twins. They're hitting lots of HRs now. I think a lot of that comes from the mediocre opposing pitchers, but if they can keep producing runs through this "new" and "unheard of" method to score, we should be good moving forward. I expected this lineup to hit more dingers with Carroll sitting and the loss of Span+Revere. It was a little surprising that we weren't hitting many early. That was mostly because of Doumit, Willingham, and Parmelee starting slow, but they are doing a little better now.

#34 jokin

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Posted 03 June 2013 - 06:07 PM

I guess we'll find out at the end of the year.

Let me just ask one question: If, at the end of the year, the Twins have won 75 games (as they are on pace to do), how will you feel? Will you be happy that they have shown improvement in the one category that ultimately matters (W-L)? Or will you be upset that they didn't tank completely and force the organization to adopt a more radical change in approach? Or will it be some combination of both?


Well, first off, that's 4 questions, not one!:)

Upset that they DIDN'T tank? Huh? Nope. What would have made me happy was for the Twins to do what Boston and Cleveland attempted to do in the offseason. Both of those teams cleared extraordinarily significant payroll room to do a remake/makeover/hole-filling... while maintaining their solid core players and soon-up-and-coming prospects- all without breaking the bank to do so (like the Dodgers and Angels did).

The positive spin-take on the Twins season thus far taken by the OP is akin to being on a clipper ship in the middle of the Indian Ocean 3 days out to sea and trying to spin positive on the favorable winds and plenty of less-than-tasty MRE rations while ignoring the obvious facts that the boat's radio is Kaput, the auxiliary motor is dangerously low on fuel and the ship is sinking at a rate that guarantees the clipper ship will be at the bottom of the sea in 2 days.

Edited by jokin, 03 June 2013 - 06:09 PM.


#35 edavis0308

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Posted 03 June 2013 - 06:45 PM

I feel like this team is in for a world of hurt when the bullpen starts breaking down and can't protect the few leads the starters will have. I don't think that is some profound shocking statement to anyone, but our home runs better continue to keep us in more high run affairs. The cut down on errors at the very least has been refreshing.

#36 birdwatcher

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Posted 03 June 2013 - 08:53 PM

Stop trying to sound smarter than everyone else and enjoy some wins already people!


Exactly. Coming into the season, if one's expectations were anything above having a team that was in the game more often than not, more fun to watch, a little more likely to win, with a few glimpses of a bright future, then one was setting oneself up for unhappiness.

#37 Riverbrian

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Posted 03 June 2013 - 09:50 PM

The positive spin-take on the Twins season thus far taken by the OP is akin to being on a clipper ship in the middle of the Indian Ocean 3 days out to sea and trying to spin positive on the favorable winds and plenty of less-than-tasty MRE rations while ignoring the obvious facts that the boat's radio is Kaput, the auxiliary motor is dangerously low on fuel and the ship is sinking at a rate that guarantees the clipper ship will be at the bottom of the sea in 2 days.


I disagree with this paragraph but I liked the way you typed it.
A Skeleton walks into a bar and says... "Give me a beer... And a mop".

#38 jokin

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Posted 03 June 2013 - 10:01 PM

I disagree with this paragraph but I liked the way you typed it.


Thanks...I think? I hope I'm wrong in my prediction, it just seems that if a little more of a concerted effort and financial commitment had been made in addressing the holes in the pitching staff and position players- this story would never need to be written. I give Ryan and Gardy credit in changing up some of their old-way, on- and off-field strategies... add the fresh approach and just another couple key cheap position players and 2 healthy and legitimate mid-to-second tier starters and this boat stays afloat well into September, right in the thick of the AL Central Regatta.

Edited by jokin, 03 June 2013 - 10:05 PM.


#39 stringer bell

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Posted 03 June 2013 - 10:18 PM

This is the Tigers year. Cleveland basically did what you are calling for and is hanging with the Kitties for now, but I doubt they hold up. Perhaps next year and certainly by 2015, the Twins will have improved personnel and could challenge the best in the Central. I am pretty confident that the lineup will be very good. I am less confident about the pitching staff.

#40 jokin

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Posted 03 June 2013 - 11:10 PM

This is the Tigers year. Cleveland basically did what you are calling for and is hanging with the Kitties for now, but I doubt they hold up. Perhaps next year and certainly by 2015, the Twins will have improved personnel and could challenge the best in the Central. I am pretty confident that the lineup will be very good. I am less confident about the pitching staff.


Yes, the starting pitching staff situation has not been adequately addressed for yet another year. Unlike many on this board, I don't think it's reasonable to have to wait until 2015- in a brand new ballpark, with a core of 2 former MVPs and 3 potential All Stars trying to bust the doors down to get into the lineup, and crying poor and selling to the public that coming in at around 60% of potentially available payroll dollars is an acceptable trade-off to having "patience" until 2015 or beyond.

I noticed you left the Red Sox out of your response. I'll take what Cleveland did, at least they are making the effort to get relevant with an intelligent plan and intelligent management to implemet the plan. I would be far more forgiving of the Indians if I was a fan if they fail this year than I am for the Twins for barely make an effort at competing this year.

#41 clutterheart

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Posted 03 June 2013 - 11:17 PM

Only 4.5 games out. If there had been a guy available this past offseason who A. filled the Twins need for starting pitching and B. was coveted by the Tigers, they might have made a direct, albeit "marginal" dent in that gap. A shame no such free agent pitcher fit both of those criteria.


Agree 1000%

#42 jokin

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Posted 03 June 2013 - 11:33 PM

Only 4.5 games out. If there had been a guy available this past offseason who A. filled the Twins need for starting pitching and B. was coveted by the Tigers, they might have made a direct, albeit "marginal" dent in that gap. A shame no such free agent pitcher fit both of those criteria.


Signing Sanchez would have been a shot across the Tigers bow. Though they are clearly odd-on favorites, there are chinks in their armor. Their closer is awful, their #5 starter is awful. Their defense is better than last year, but still sub-standard. They are getting negative WAR results from the DH and Catcher. They still would be likely AL Central winners, but Sanchez fronting the Twins rotation from April 1, with Gibson and later Meyer coming in to bolster him, and at least we're talking about more than Joe Benson on June 3.

#43 twinsnorth49

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Posted 04 June 2013 - 08:01 AM

Signing Sanchez would have been a shot across the Tigers bow. Though they are clearly odd-on favorites, there are chinks in their armor. Their closer is awful, their #5 starter is awful. Their defense is better than last year, but still sub-standard. They are getting negative WAR results from the DH and Catcher. They still would be likely AL Central winners, but Sanchez fronting the Twins rotation from April 1, with Gibson and later Meyer coming in to bolster him, and at least we're talking about more than Joe Benson on June 3.


Right, but we'd probably be talking about Hell freezing over or all those pigs flying around everywhere.

#44 Aaron Cross

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Posted 04 June 2013 - 08:13 AM

Bullpen as a whole has been solid but how long wil that last at the rate they're bein used/overused by Gardy's reluctance to let pitchers go deeper.

I've actually been impressed with Gardy trying to get an extra inning out of his starter whenever he can. The casual fan who's incapable of looking past the current game screams at their TV for gardy to pull him after 5 or 6 innings, with no regard for the long term health of the bullpen. Kudos to gardy. One of the few areas where I support him.

#45 mike wants wins

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Posted 04 June 2013 - 08:18 AM

Right, but we'd probably be talking about Hell freezing over or all those pigs flying around everywhere.


why? Why is this scenario so hard for the Twins' fans and FO to imagine/do?

One big FA signing, call up your best pitching prospect. Imagine if they had kept Span, had Sanchez instead of Pelfrey, and Gibson up nowish......you don't think Span's offense and Sanchez instead of Pelfrey gives you 5 more wins right now?

You don't think Sanchez and Gibson and Diamond as your top 3 is a legit starting rotation? Add another median FA next year, or maybe Wimmers or Baxendale or a trade target to move in front of Diamond?

It isn't that hard to fix this rotation, if you are willing to spend money.
Lighten up Francis....

#46 ThePuck

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Posted 04 June 2013 - 08:42 AM

I've actually been impressed with Gardy trying to get an extra inning out of his starter whenever he can. The casual fan who's incapable of looking past the current game screams at their TV for gardy to pull him after 5 or 6 innings, with no regard for the long term health of the bullpen. Kudos to gardy. One of the few areas where I support him.


You mean like when he pulled Diamond after 6 innings when he was cruising and had a lead of 8-0. Don't think he could have gotten an extra inning there?

Oh, also, Twins starters are 28th in innings pitched per start.

Edited by ThePuck, 04 June 2013 - 08:46 AM.


#47 SweetOne69

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Posted 04 June 2013 - 09:17 AM

You mean like when he pulled Diamond after 6 innings when he was cruising and had a lead of 8-0. Don't think he could have gotten an extra inning there?

Oh, also, Twins starters are 28th in innings pitched per start.


While Diamond did cruise through 5 innings, he got hit hard in the 6th and his PC was up to 95 after the inning. I had no problem pulling Diamond after the 6th.

I wanted to add that while I wish they let Diamond go out for the 7th, with how Seattle was hitting everything hard in the 6th (luckily it was at somebody), there was no point in ruining his great outing just to give the BP some rest. That being said, I wished that Gardy didn't feel the need to use 3 relievers. Especially with the off day, I would've like to have Pressly or Roenicke pitch 2 innings and have Perkins finish (if the felt he needed the work).

Edited by SweetOne69, 04 June 2013 - 10:23 AM.


#48 ThePuck

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Posted 04 June 2013 - 10:25 AM

While Diamond did cruise through 5 innings, he got hit hard in the 6th and his PC was up to 95 after the inning. I had no problem pulling Diamond after the 6th.


He gave up one hit after the first inning...in the 4th...and, again, had a 8-0 lead. If there was ever a time where an exta inning could be had from a starter...that was it.

#49 twinsnorth49

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Posted 04 June 2013 - 11:26 AM

why? Why is this scenario so hard for the Twins' fans and FO to imagine/do?

One big FA signing, call up your best pitching prospect. Imagine if they had kept Span, had Sanchez instead of Pelfrey, and Gibson up nowish......you don't think Span's offense and Sanchez instead of Pelfrey gives you 5 more wins right now?

You don't think Sanchez and Gibson and Diamond as your top 3 is a legit starting rotation? Add another median FA next year, or maybe Wimmers or Baxendale or a trade target to move in front of Diamond?

It isn't that hard to fix this rotation, if you are willing to spend money.


Correct, which they will do when either Hell freezes over or pigs fly, possibly both.

As for the rest of your post, all sounds good except I'll still take Meyer's potential over Span (and it fills a greater need), Diamond as a top 3? Still a little shaky and Alex Wimmers?.......what the......? Now we're really reaching.

#50 twinsnorth49

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Posted 04 June 2013 - 11:30 AM

While Diamond did cruise through 5 innings, he got hit hard in the 6th and his PC was up to 95 after the inning. I had no problem pulling Diamond after the 6th.

I wanted to add that while I wish they let Diamond go out for the 7th, with how Seattle was hitting everything hard in the 6th (luckily it was at somebody), there was no point in ruining his great outing just to give the BP some rest. That being said, I wished that Gardy didn't feel the need to use 3 relievers. Especially with the off day, I would've like to have Pressly or Roenicke pitch 2 innings and have Perkins finish (if the felt he needed the work).


Why? As Puck stated it was 8-0 and lord knows the BP could use the rest.

#51 howieramone1406390264

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Posted 04 June 2013 - 11:42 AM

Yes, the starting pitching staff situation has not been adequately addressed for yet another year. Unlike many on this board, I don't think it's reasonable to have to wait until 2015- in a brand new ballpark, with a core of 2 former MVPs and 3 potential All Stars trying to bust the doors down to get into the lineup, and crying poor and selling to the public that coming in at around 60% of potentially available payroll dollars is an acceptable trade-off to having "patience" until 2015 or beyond.

I noticed you left the Red Sox out of your response. I'll take what Cleveland did, at least they are making the effort to get relevant with an intelligent plan and intelligent management to implemet the plan. I would be far more forgiving of the Indians if I was a fan if they fail this year than I am for the Twins for barely make an effort at competing this year.

Not me.

#52 Oxtung

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Posted 04 June 2013 - 12:08 PM

Park factor trends after 54 games...

2013 1.055 (11th)
2012 1.044 (10th)
2011 0.944 (21st)
2010 0.962 (19th)

Do we still think Target Field is a pitcher's park?


Given that half of that data comes against the Twins pitchers I'm not sure that tells much of anything....

#53 Aaron Cross

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Posted 04 June 2013 - 12:32 PM

You mean like when he pulled Diamond after 6 innings when he was cruising and had
a lead of 8-0. Don't think he could have gotten an extra inning there?

Oh, also, Twins starters are 28th in innings pitched per start.

No question. Pulling diamond was dumb. Diamond probably said he was gassed. Thats one of my many beefs with gardy. He doesnt call the shots, the players do. I still think gardys made an effort to get more innings from his starters, its just not so easy being they're all so terrible.

#54 jokin

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Posted 04 June 2013 - 02:00 PM

Not me.


But that's just you...

#55 jokin

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Posted 04 June 2013 - 02:06 PM

Right, but we'd probably be talking about Hell freezing over or all those pigs flying around everywhere.


Right... But I like Willihammer's stating of the unmentionable obvious about "the elephant in the room"...it didn't, and it doesn't, have to be this way... where pigs and ice are concerned.

#56 jokin

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Posted 04 June 2013 - 02:11 PM

why? Why is this scenario so hard for the Twins' fans and FO to imagine/do?

One big FA signing, call up your best pitching prospect. Imagine if they had kept Span, had Sanchez instead of Pelfrey, and Gibson up nowish......you don't think Span's offense and Sanchez instead of Pelfrey gives you 5 more wins right now?

You don't think Sanchez and Gibson and Diamond as your top 3 is a legit starting rotation? Add another median FA next year, or maybe Wimmers or Baxendale or a trade target to move in front of Diamond?

It isn't that hard to fix this rotation, if you are willing to spend money.


And how about not letting Torii Hunter sign with the Tigers for 2 years? Back-up center fielder, starting RF and the #2 hole in the lineup taken care of, and a set of huge holes shot in both the Tigers defense and a set-up guy in front of Cabrera and Fielder.

Edited by jokin, 04 June 2013 - 02:34 PM.


#57 jokin

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Posted 04 June 2013 - 02:19 PM

why? Why is this scenario so hard for the Twins' fans and FO to imagine/do?




It isn't that hard to fix this rotation, if you are willing to spend money
.


You capsulized my frustrations with the current situation in 2 sentences. Why, "why?", indeed. We need an "imagination" infusion in Twinsland.

#58 snepp

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Posted 04 June 2013 - 02:28 PM

Posted Image

#59 ThePuck

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Posted 04 June 2013 - 03:26 PM

Diamond probably said he was gassed. Thats one of my many beefs with gardy. He doesnt call the shots, the players do.


Those are a couple assumptions I'm not willing to take.

Edited by ThePuck, 04 June 2013 - 03:39 PM.


#60 boylan

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Posted 04 June 2013 - 04:23 PM

He gave up one hit after the first inning...in the 4th...and, again, had a 8-0 lead. If there was ever a time where an exta inning could be had from a starter...that was it.


Totally agree.

Gardy has lost several games this year by WISHING his starters could go longer. I don't think he notices Corriea, or whoever, are mentally fried iin the 7th even though they have only throw 85 pitches. Or 107. Pick your favorite game that he has booted.

Now, they are carrying 13 pitchers and have every monday in June off. July isn't a lot different. USE THE BULLPEN!.