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Article: Twins MLB Draft Profile: Jonathan Gray, RHP

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#1 John Bonnes

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Posted 02 June 2013 - 08:27 PM

You can view the page at http://twinsdaily.co...nathan-Gray-RHP

#2 diehardtwinsfan

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Posted 03 June 2013 - 06:35 AM

I cannot think of a reason why this pick would fall under "the Twins messed up b/c". He's likely not going to be there at 4, and if by chance he is, we'd be silly not to take him.

#3 mike wants wins

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Posted 03 June 2013 - 07:03 AM

I'd think that anyone second guessing this pick would have to be doing so from hindsight. I can't think of a reason, given what we know today, why you would not take him if he is there (other than Appel also being there, I guess).
Lighten up Francis....

#4 Gernzy

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Posted 03 June 2013 - 07:30 AM

I really hope he falls to us at #4. And if he does we better take him...

#5 mlhouse

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Posted 03 June 2013 - 10:15 AM

No way the Twins pass on Gray if he falls to #4. I seriously doubt that happens. The Law Mock was some sort of idiosyncratic type of mock not based on any logic. The only possibility of Gray or Appel falling to the Twins is if somehow Stewart got in the mix with the top selection.

As it is, I have long advocated a college arm with the #4, but after talking with my cousin who is a Texas A&M grad, he thinks the slotted bonus amount for #4 is enough to get Stewart signed. And, the fact that the Twins would be protected with a #5 pick next year helps mitigate any signability risk.

#6 mike wants wins

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Posted 03 June 2013 - 10:20 AM

the Law mock is based on coversations with front office personnel......and it is certainly possible that Houston tries what they tried last year.
Lighten up Francis....

#7 cmb0252

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Posted 03 June 2013 - 11:53 AM

I cannot think of a reason why this pick would fall under "the Twins messed up b/c". He's likely not going to be there at 4, and if by chance he is, we'd be silly not to take him.


While I agree I will play devil's advocate for fun.

Do people know why Gray wasn't on many boards coming into the year even though he had possessed a mid+ 90's fastball since HS? He had a history of having a poor work ethic which led to poor results on the field. He was constantly out of shape which led to inconsistent mechanics. Can he keep up the effort to stay in shape? Can he develop a change up? Unlike Appel there just isn't a track record to know for sure.

Ok, no more devils advocate. I love Gray and have him #1 on my board. I still don't believe he will fall to #4 but if he does I will be bouncing off the walls. Go Twins!

#8 drjim

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Posted 03 June 2013 - 02:53 PM

I'd think that anyone second guessing this pick would have to be doing so from hindsight. I can't think of a reason, given what we know today, why you would not take him if he is there (other than Appel also being there, I guess).


I can't imagine someone criticizing a draft pick or draft record out of hindsight.

#9 nicksaviking

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Posted 03 June 2013 - 03:04 PM

I can't imagine someone criticizing a draft pick or draft record out of hindsight.


I think the Twins should have kept Santana instead of trading him and picked Mike Trout and Tyler Skaggs with the two comp picks they would have gotten for him.

#10 gunnarthor

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Posted 03 June 2013 - 03:38 PM

From what I've read about Gray the question is whether he can develop a 3rd pitch. If he ends up just a high velocity bullpen arm, it's a bad pick. I would prefer Appel and Bryant to him so if he's there, we should obviously take him. But if the Twins took Stewart over him, I'd probably be ok with it b/c they (presumably) would feel that Stewart was more likely to become a true ace. If they took McGuire and saved money, I'd be pretty upset.

#11 Jeremy Nygaard

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Posted 03 June 2013 - 03:57 PM

Apparently Gray tested positive for a banned stimulant at pre-draft testing. No suspension, but will face additional tests.

#12 gunnarthor

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Posted 03 June 2013 - 03:59 PM

Apparently Gray tested positive for a banned stimulant at pre-draft testing. No suspension, but will face additional tests.


Well, that'll knock him down a few lists, maybe even ours.

http://espn.go.com/m...e-test-adderall

Adderall. Used for ADHD. Helps focus. Klaw doesn't think it'll hurt his draft stock.

Edited by gunnarthor, 03 June 2013 - 04:04 PM.


#13 darin617

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Posted 03 June 2013 - 04:44 PM

Apparently Gray tested positive for a banned stimulant at pre-draft testing. No suspension, but will face additional tests.


That would have to easily scare Houston away from drafting him and I don't think they want anything to do with Appel after they wanted nothing to do with him and if he is #1 Boras will make sure he gets every penny he can squeeze out if him.
I know we are talking about Gray here but you would have to think this will push Houston to taking Colin Moran, giving the Twins one of the top 3 studs.

#14 jorgenswest

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Posted 03 June 2013 - 04:54 PM

Is it possible that Houston will be more likely to draft him?

He must know that this could effect his slot. Would that make him more willing to take below slot money? Houston might be able to get him to accept a contract slotted for picks 4 or 5 and draft him number 1.

#15 Red Bull

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Posted 03 June 2013 - 04:59 PM

Gray testing positive for Adderal could hurt the Twins. If Gray falls down draft boards including the Twins that could mean that one of the top 3 teams that would of picked Gray could move him down and instead take Stewart, and if the Twins dont like Gray anymore either it may mean that they would just take Mcguire because Bryant, Appel and Stewart are all gone.

#16 maxisagod

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Posted 03 June 2013 - 05:29 PM

Gray testing positive for Adderal could hurt the Twins. If Gray falls down draft boards including the Twins that could mean that one of the top 3 teams that would of picked Gray could move him down and instead take Stewart, and if the Twins dont like Gray anymore either it may mean that they would just take Mcguire because Bryant, Appel and Stewart are all gone.


I follow you. I haven't heard of any of the top 3 teams connected to Stewart, so I have to think he,s ceiling is still 4. The Twins are big on character though, so I agree with you it is a possiblity the Twins pass on Gray at 4.

#17 Shane Wahl

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Posted 03 June 2013 - 06:07 PM

A college student tested positive for Adderall? No ****.

Anyway, if he falls to 4 and the Twins do not take him, I am going to go ballistic. Other than him at that spot (and assuming Stewart would be gone), I like Shipley or Ball.

#18 Red Bull

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Posted 03 June 2013 - 08:05 PM

A college student tested positive for Adderall? No ****.

Anyway, if he falls to 4 and the Twins do not take him, I am going to go ballistic. Other than him at that spot (and assuming Stewart would be gone), I like Shipley or Ball.


I agree If they passed on Gray I would absolutely freak out. Assuming Stewart is gone too I like Shipley and Ball to but less Shipley. Hes could be a longer wait than Stewart even, he just recently became a pitcher and I heard he could take up to 5 years to develop.

#19 gunnarthor

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Posted 03 June 2013 - 08:17 PM

A college student tested positive for Adderall? No ****.
.


I mostly agree with you but ... 1) other students (Appel, Shipley) managed to do fine without it or were smart enough to know how not to get caught. 2) Coming into the year, Gray wasn't this good, as CMB mentioned. Did Adderall help him with his focus? If so, how would he do without it? Revert to the 3rd round arm he was last year?

I don't necessarily think Gray is a bad pick and I'd be thrilled to have him but I think those are fair questions teams should be looking at.

#20 PseudoSABR

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Posted 03 June 2013 - 08:20 PM

Adderall, I imagine, is a significantly stronger, better performing stimulant than, say, the greenies players took in the 70s and 80s to gain an edge. I wouldn't dismiss the benefits such a drug would give players out on the mound, given how much focus, concentration, and mental endurance are part of a good pitcher's make up.

#21 diehardtwinsfan

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Posted 03 June 2013 - 08:29 PM

I'm not sure it adds focus. It's counterintuitive, but stimulants work on ADHD people a bit different than they do the rest of us. It allows them to concentrate where they could not proper... It just amps up everyone else. If it's a concentration thing, he's likely ADHD and can get a prescription for it.

That said, the question I have is how many ticks can Adderall add to your fastball. If he suddenly cannot hit 100 MPH and can only hit say 96, is he the same prospect he was prior to this?

#22 Red Bull

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Posted 03 June 2013 - 08:50 PM

Adderall, I imagine, is a significantly stronger, better performing stimulant than, say, the greenies players took in the 70s and 80s to gain an edge. I wouldn't dismiss the benefits such a drug would give players out on the mound, given how much focus, concentration, and mental endurance are part of a good pitcher's make up.


Heres whats up with Adderal. Its an Amphetamine which means its a stimulant. It would help to know how much he was taking because theres a big difference if he was taking a little compared to alot. If you take a small dose(Which is what students usulay do) you dont really notice anything, you just stay awake longer. If you take a large dose you get alot of energy, become very focused and you get Euphoria. When you take a large dose you feel like you could do anything, you just feel so good and energized. Its like you want to work because you have so much energy and euphoria. Thats why taking a large dose really does give a player an edge.

If hes taking high doses I wouldnt take this guy. Like I said with a high dose you get an amazing edge. Maybe thats why he was so good this year compared to last year? Btw im a recovering addict that has done every drug out there. A high dose of amphetamines is one of the best highs, you feel like superman.

#23 Jeremy Nygaard

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Posted 03 June 2013 - 09:15 PM

I don't think it's so much that he's on Adderall. It's that he didn't jump through the necessary hoops (go to the doctor and get a prescription) to legally possess the drug.

That's what I've been told anyway.

#24 PseudoSABR

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Posted 03 June 2013 - 09:40 PM

[COLOR=#333333][FONT=Helvetica Neue]Based on conversations with scouts and agents, neither player figures to drop because of the positive tests. Two club officials said their teams believed Gray’s use of Adderall was a one-time mistake and wouldn’t be held against him.[/FONT][/COLOR]

Glassey of BA

#25 Red Bull

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Posted 04 June 2013 - 03:12 AM

I don't think it's so much that he's on Adderall. It's that he didn't jump through the necessary hoops (go to the doctor and get a prescription) to legally possess the drug.

That's what I've been told anyway.


Thats another angle to look at but if hes getting jacked up before games hes giving imself an edge. Unless you have felt that edge you dont know what im talking about. It gives you so much energy and makes you feel so good. You feel like superman. It would allow him to have a high energy level and be able to sustain it throughout the game. Everyone says its so amazing how he keeps his velocity up in the later innings, this could be the reason hes able to do that.

#26 Ncgo4

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Posted 04 June 2013 - 03:51 AM

"A poor work ethic", "Consistently out of shape", and now we find out he's amping up before games? I don't care if he can throw it 95 MPH through a key hole the twins don't touch this kid. This all points to emotional & character issues and we've been there and done that with Mr. Young. He'll be available and the Twins will pass and that will be a good thing.

#27 mike wants wins

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Posted 04 June 2013 - 07:41 AM

Baseball has a super rich history of greenies and other stimulants......it's funny to me that people think this is a big deal.

It does not point to character or emotional issues, it points to using a stimulant, like coffee or red bull or greenies or whatever that professional athletes have been using since the, well, forever.
Lighten up Francis....

#28 Ncgo4

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Posted 04 June 2013 - 08:04 AM

If it were just that, i'd agree. But CMB0252 mentioned the other two things and together they raise (to my mind at least) a big character issue.

#29 Badsmerf

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Posted 04 June 2013 - 08:47 AM

No, it does not give him an edge. If he were taking the LSAT then maybe it would, but we're not. His FB isn't going to be 1-2 mph faster, his slider isn't going to break any more, this drug is not a physical drug. Now, he might be able to remember specific game-plans or pitches batter missed or even how many outs there are. Just because you "feel" like superman, does not make you superman. Stimulants are for the brain, steroids are for the body. They are not, and do not do the same thing. I have a hard time believe adderall has played much into his season at all, unless he actually needs to use it.
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#30 TheLeviathan

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Posted 04 June 2013 - 08:52 AM

No, it does not give him an edge. If he were taking the LSAT then maybe it would, but we're not. His FB isn't going to be 1-2 mph faster, his slider isn't going to break any more, this drug is not a physical drug. Now, he might be able to remember specific game-plans or pitches batter missed or even how many outs there are. Just because you "feel" like superman, does not make you superman. Stimulants are for the brain, steroids are for the body. They are not, and do not do the same thing. I have a hard time believe adderall has played much into his season at all, unless he actually needs to use it.


More NFL players are using stimulants to improve performance. The brain is the master control for the body - sharpening your reflexes and attention to detail in a sport could very easily create some significant advantages. I've read a few stories NFL-centric (out of Seattle I think) saying stimulants like this are becoming a backdoor way for players to try and improve performance.

If a sport like football - FAR more physical - is finding a use for this stimulant, I imagine you could in baseball as well. Especially when mental fatigue in a 162 game season is a very real factor.