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Arcia to Rochester

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#1 IdahoPilgrim

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Posted 25 May 2013 - 06:33 AM

Per Twins website - Arcia sent down to make room on the active roster for Walters. We'll hear later today what they do to make room on the 40-man.

This means we're back at 13 pitchers again, which I guess is not that much of a surprise given how much we've had to turn to the bullpen recently.

#2 gunnarthor

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Posted 25 May 2013 - 06:38 AM

I'm sorta ok with this move even though I think it was done, at least in part, for service time/payroll considerations. He's striking out a lot and Parmelee should get one last shot, even though I don't think he'll hit enough.

#3 Mr. Brooks

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Posted 25 May 2013 - 06:42 AM

I get that Arcia is slumping a bit right now, but I cant see how Collabello has earned a roster spot over Arcia.
Even with his recent struggles, Arcia is still one of the 3 or 4 best hitters on the club.

#4 Riverbrian

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Posted 25 May 2013 - 07:31 AM

I see the need for a bigger pen. That makes sense.

I understand the corner outfield/1B crowd that has been growing larger and it should be reduced.

I see we have some players on the roster that are not easy to send down.

However... We just sent down the guy who is currently the 2nd best power option on the team and one of three guys with an OPS over .800 against RH. The Tigers ain't gonna throw any lefties at us and I don't think the Brewers are either.
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#5 diehardtwinsfan

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Posted 25 May 2013 - 07:39 AM

I think this is the right move. MLB exposed some weaknesses and heads down to Rochester to work on them. Parmelee, on the other hand, needs to play every day and needs to get more than a 3 week trial. I don't know if he's an answer or not, but we will never find out in sporadic playing time.

#6 TheLeviathan

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Posted 25 May 2013 - 08:00 AM

With the amount of bench time...this was the right move. Now blaming the person who keeps benching him for the Hairy Circus in RF...that's another matter.

#7 notoriousgod71

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Posted 25 May 2013 - 08:10 AM

I think this is the right move. MLB exposed some weaknesses and heads down to Rochester to work on them. Parmelee, on the other hand, needs to play every day and needs to get more than a 3 week trial. I don't know if he's an answer or not, but we will never find out in sporadic playing time.


MLB pitching has exposed weaknesses for all of our hitters.

#8 stringer bell

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Posted 25 May 2013 - 08:12 AM

To echo a couple others, it isn't "fair" to Arcia, but things aren't fair. Arcia only needs to spend five days in Rochester to be under control for another year. I can understand that from the Twins perspective much more than trying to avoid Super2 for Gibson. If he is going to only get sporadic time playing for the Twins, it is better for him to hit every day in Rochester. I hope he works on his defense down there. He was pretty close to brutal and it seems he has the tools to be an above average corner OF. Whatever helps down the road is what is best. I agree that the team needs let Parmelee have an extended chance to prove he can hit. That impacts moving Morneau (or not) and Willingham. Arcia has hit everywhere and moved up fast. I'm pretty sure he'll be back pretty soon and will be a hitter.

#9 Danchat

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Posted 25 May 2013 - 09:29 AM

If he is going to only get sporadic time playing for the Twins, it is better for him to hit every day in Rochester. I hope he works on his defense down there. He was pretty close to brutal and it seems he has the tools to be an above average corner OF. Whatever helps down the road is what is best. I agree that the team needs let Parmelee have an extended chance to prove he can hit.

My thoughts exactly. Arcia can get some extended time in AAA (hey, weren't we expecting him to go back down after he came up anyways?) and hopefully make some improvements. Parmelee has conquered AAA, and his defense isn't a problem, so we just have to wait for his bat to come around.

#10 Mr. Brooks

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Posted 25 May 2013 - 09:34 AM

To echo a couple others, it isn't "fair" to Arcia, but things aren't fair. Arcia only needs to spend five days in Rochester to be under control for another year. I can understand that from the Twins perspective much more than trying to avoid Super2 for Gibson. If he is going to only get sporadic time playing for the Twins, it is better for him to hit every day in Rochester. I hope he works on his defense down there. He was pretty close to brutal and it seems he has the tools to be an above average corner OF. Whatever helps down the road is what is best. I agree that the team needs let Parmelee have an extended chance to prove he can hit. That impacts moving Morneau (or not) and Willingham. Arcia has hit everywhere and moved up fast. I'm pretty sure he'll be back pretty soon and will be a hitter.


I think you are the first person to use the word "fair" in this thread.
The people that this move is not "fair" to are guys like Mauer and Morneau. Those guys could care less about rebuilding and getting "a good look" at guys like Parmalee, Wilkin Ramirez, and Chris Collabello. They want to win now, even if that isnt realistic. And sending down your 3rd or 4th best hitter while guys hitting sub .200 get to play every day, and minor league journeymen like Wilkin Ramirez and Chris Collabello get to keep roster spots over Arcia is a slap in the face to those guys.

The thing that is almost comical is how Mauer came out after he signed his extension and said something to the effect that he made it clear to management that he expected a contending roster to be assembled around him.
Have they kept their word to you Joe? Or have they wasted now 3 of your prime years with basement rosters?

Edited by Mr. Brooks, 25 May 2013 - 09:36 AM.


#11 twinsnorth49

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Posted 25 May 2013 - 10:55 AM

I think you are the first person to use the word "fair" in this thread.
The people that this move is not "fair" to are guys like Mauer and Morneau. Those guys could care less about rebuilding and getting "a good look" at guys like Parmalee, Wilkin Ramirez, and Chris Collabello. They want to win now, even if that isnt realistic. And sending down your 3rd or 4th best hitter while guys hitting sub .200 get to play every day, and minor league journeymen like Wilkin Ramirez and Chris Collabello get to keep roster spots over Arcia is a slap in the face to those guys.

The thing that is almost comical is how Mauer came out after he signed his extension and said something to the effect that he made it clear to management that he expected a contending roster to be assembled around him.
Have they kept their word to you Joe? Or have they wasted now 3 of your prime years with basement rosters?


I agree with this in general but Parmelee hasn't been playing everyday either and what would sending him back to Rochester accomplish? He's pretty much proved everything he can down there and needs to prove whether he can play at this level or the Twins cut bait, no?

Unless you send Ramirez down and commit to playing both Parms and Arcia in RF and LF, occasionally Doumit (ughhh) and commit Hammer to DH, what else are you going to do? Dozier is a possibility but again, like Parms I think it's make or break time for him this year as well, although he didn't rip AAA pitching like Parmelee did so here could be a little more justification for sending him down to work things out, he's been pretty solid in the field though.

#12 Halsey Hall

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Posted 25 May 2013 - 11:27 AM

I expected this and am fine with it. Arcia has had his taste, and knows now what he needs to work on as they pitch him differently lately. Play every day and work on those weaknesses, and then come back up for good. In the long run I think this is the way to go.

It looks like they're going to stick with Hicks thru thick and thin. Two different approaches, we'll see which works out the best down the line.

#13 Oxtung

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Posted 25 May 2013 - 01:19 PM

I expected this and am fine with it. Arcia has had his taste, and knows now what he needs to work on as they pitch him differently lately. Play every day and work on those weaknesses, and then come back up for good. In the long run I think this is the way to go.

It looks like they're going to stick with Hicks thru thick and thin. Two different approaches, we'll see which works out the best down the line.


I think Hicks is a product of their poor planning going into the season. If there was an alternative I think Hicks would have been sent down long ago.

#14 Brock Beauchamp

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Posted 25 May 2013 - 02:10 PM

I think Hicks is a product of their poor planning going into the season. If there was an alternative I think Hicks would have been sent down long ago.


Yep.

#15 Kwak

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Posted 25 May 2013 - 02:33 PM

I think Hicks is a product of their poor planning going into the season. If there was an alternative I think Hicks would have been sent down long ago.

"Poor planning?" Allow me to simply refer to TD posters. Everyone was complaining about the pitching rotation, clearly new "arms" were badly needed--and soon! Only tradeable ML players available were Span and Revere. Most TD posters were in general agreement with those trades.
Read the Benson threads--oh so many thought he was a "prospect", a few still do. It wasn't unrealistic for the Twins to think Benson would be a viable option for CF in 2013.

Hicks had a standout AA experience and performed well above expectations in Spring training this season. It was very reasonable to conclude he was a viable CF option in 2013. TD posters were mostly shouting to make him the regular CF on opening day.

Mastroianni had proven himself as a competent ML CF and also performed above expectations in Spring training. It was certainly reasonable to consider Mastroianni as a viable option for CF this season.

"Poor planning"? Expecting that Mastroianni would break his leg and render himself out of action for most if not all of 2013?--not reasonable.

"Poor planning"? To witness Hicks render himself only slightly better than useless?--not reasonable.

Benson to stink-up again so badly to render himself useless to the Twins?--reasonable to think he might (he did last year), but at least as reasonable to conclude he would "turn things around".

"Poor planning"? Last year the Twins had three catchers on the active roster--so they could not be accused of "poor planning"? Most TD posters derided that philosophy--as I hope they reject said notion of "poor planning" because they don't have even more viable options for CF. I sure hope none of those guys need a spot on the 40-man roster or require that the Twins trade a useful player from a different position to have another CF option so they can't be accused of "poor planning".

#16 Mr. Brooks

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Posted 25 May 2013 - 06:37 PM

I agree with this in general but Parmelee hasn't been playing everyday either and what would sending him back to Rochester accomplish? He's pretty much proved everything he can down there and needs to prove whether he can play at this level or the Twins cut bait, no?

Unless you send Ramirez down and commit to playing both Parms and Arcia in RF and LF, occasionally Doumit (ughhh) and commit Hammer to DH, what else are you going to do? Dozier is a possibility but again, like Parms I think it's make or break time for him this year as well, although he didn't rip AAA pitching like Parmelee did so here could be a little more justification for sending him down to work things out, he's been pretty solid in the field though.


Tell me the reason to have Collabello on the roster over Arcia?

#17 Mr. Brooks

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Posted 25 May 2013 - 06:40 PM

"Poor planning?" Allow me to simply refer to TD posters. Everyone was complaining about the pitching rotation, clearly new "arms" were badly needed--and soon! Only tradeable ML players available were Span and Revere. Most TD posters were in general agreement with those trades.
Read the Benson threads--oh so many thought he was a "prospect", a few still do. It wasn't unrealistic for the Twins to think Benson would be a viable option for CF in 2013.

Hicks had a standout AA experience and performed well above expectations in Spring training this season. It was very reasonable to conclude he was a viable CF option in 2013. TD posters were mostly shouting to make him the regular CF on opening day.

Mastroianni had proven himself as a competent ML CF and also performed above expectations in Spring training. It was certainly reasonable to consider Mastroianni as a viable option for CF this season.

"Poor planning"? Expecting that Mastroianni would break his leg and render himself out of action for most if not all of 2013?--not reasonable.

"Poor planning"? To witness Hicks render himself only slightly better than useless?--not reasonable.

Benson to stink-up again so badly to render himself useless to the Twins?--reasonable to think he might (he did last year), but at least as reasonable to conclude he would "turn things around".

"Poor planning"? Last year the Twins had three catchers on the active roster--so they could not be accused of "poor planning"? Most TD posters derided that philosophy--as I hope they reject said notion of "poor planning" because they don't have even more viable options for CF. I sure hope none of those guys need a spot on the 40-man roster or require that the Twins trade a useful player from a different position to have another CF option so they can't be accused of "poor planning".


The Span trade was great.
We will most likely have gotten nothing for Revere though.
Actually scratch that, we will have gotten whatever negative WAR "Vanimal" contributes by the time he is given a Blackburnish long leash to unleash havoc and terror on Twins' teams ERA's for years to come, so there is that.
Maybe we get a few dozen decent middle relief/ mop up innings from May as well.

#18 Oxtung

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Posted 25 May 2013 - 06:42 PM

Let's just say that I disagree with just about every "point" you make in your rant. Instead of going point by point I'll just say that it was entirely possible to foresee that Benson, Hicks and Mastroianni would not provide the quality CF play that a team would hope for. In fact many posters did foresee this.

#19 jokin

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Posted 25 May 2013 - 06:51 PM

I get that Arcia is slumping a bit right now, but I cant see how Collabello has earned a roster spot over Arcia.
Even with his recent struggles, Arcia is still one of the 3 or 4 best hitters on the club.


The oblique references in print to "ego problems" by Gardy, apparently in response to some static he got from Arcia over his lack of PT, sealed Arcia's fate as the "demotee" by default. To be fair, he had been struggling mightily, of late- hopefully he can make the necessary adjustments in AAA. Once they normalize the CF istuation, the disabled list, and return back to 12 pitchers when they decide on the new rotation, he should be right back up, possibly in conjunction with a trade. I am assuming that Colabello will be back down on Wednesday when Plouffe returns- let him play out the full week

#20 jokin

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Posted 25 May 2013 - 06:56 PM

Let's just say that I disagree with just about every "point" you make in your rant. Instead of going point by point I'll just say that it was entirely possible to foresee that Benson, Hicks and Mastroianni would not provide the quality CF play that a team would hope for. In fact many posters did foresee this.


Yup. That's why teams with serious intent plan their position depth much more comprehensively than having literally NO ONE on your depth chart with CF-starting major league experience. Again, as I and others have illustrated, there were outside options in the offseason and we did note as such leading up to, and during, Spring Training. A proven major leaguer- signed on the cheap or with the intent of flipping a better player for prospect talent- who was brought in to play at the start of the season with the intent of either starting Hicks til he proved he wasn't ready, or working Hicks in slowly until he showed he was ready, would certainly have been doable and not an unreasonable fan expectation.

Edited by jokin, 25 May 2013 - 06:59 PM.


#21 Mr. Brooks

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Posted 25 May 2013 - 06:59 PM

The oblique references in print to "ego problems" by Gardy, apparently in response to some static he got from Arcia over his lack of PT, sealed Arcia's fate as the "demotee" by default. To be fair, he had been struggling mightily, of late- hopefully he can make the necessary adjustments in AAA. Once they normalize the CF istuation, the disabled list, and return back to 12 pitchers when they decide on the new rotation, he should be right back up, possibly in conjunction with a trade. I am assuming that Colabello will be back down on Wednesday when Plouffe returns- let him play out the full week


I'd rather have the guy struggling of late, over the plethora of guys we have who have struggled all year. But thats just me.
I find it comical how Ryan expects "consistency" from prospects. Young guys are going to be inconsistent, that is part of the learning curve.

#22 jokin

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Posted 25 May 2013 - 07:05 PM

I'd rather have the guy struggling of late, over the plethora of guys we have who have struggled all year. But thats just me.
I find it comical how Ryan expects "consistency" from prospects. Young guys are going to be inconsistent, that is part of the learning curve.


Agreed, but you don't want Arcia to get on a laughable run of an extended string like Hicks did to start off the season. I would bet he quickly gets his groove back playing everyday, not getting yanked in and out of LF and RF, and in and out of the lineup for days on end, as is inevitable with Gardy filling out the lineup card. No reason he can't be back in 2 weeks or so if the roster and pitching issues resolve themselves properly.

#23 Mr. Brooks

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Posted 25 May 2013 - 07:25 PM

Agreed, but you don't want Arcia to get on a laughable run of an extended string like Hicks did to start off the season. I would bet he quickly gets his groove back playing everyday, not getting yanked in and out of LF and RF, and in and out of the lineup for days on end, as is inevitable with Gardy filling out the lineup card. No reason he can't be back in 2 weeks or so if the roster and pitching issues resolve themselves properly.


I agree. But here is the area I find myself in, and why I'm so disappointed in Arcia going down, and Gibson not coming up:

I used to say that there would be no joy in a .500'ish season. My philosophy before the season was that if you arent going to contend for a WS, you might as well be brutal, and get better draft picks.
Well, I learned something about myself during that brief flirtation with .500 baseball over the first 5 weeks. I was wrong. I was enjoying this season a whole hell of a lot more than I enjoyed the last 2.
I was under no illusions that this team had any shot at winning the division, and also recognized that it was a lot of smoke and mirrors, and likely wouldnt last, but at the end of the day, it WAS fun following a team that was .500, as opposed to the embarrassing garbage we've had the last 2 years.

So, I wanted that to continue as long as it could.
Yes, Arcia has slumped lately, but even so, he still is one of the 3 or 4 best hitters on this team.
Sure, Gibson hasn't been the model of consistency that Sam Deduno and PJ Walters have, and no, we havent seen him throw a single MLB pitch, but I still feel very strongly that he would be easily one of our top 5 starting pitchers right now.

And I keep hearing the argument (mostly on the radio, havent been here much) that, "relax, adding Gibson doesn't turn this team into a WS contender, so it doesnt matter", ETC., ETC.
Yes, we all know that is true, but if Arcia and Gibson can each add a couple more wins, and maybe Meyer and heaven forbid Sano can come up in September and each add a win or so, then just maybe we could string out enjoyable baseball for the entire year. But, that dream is now dead.

During the last 2 years I had the complete opposite stance in this regard, and perhaps its selfish of me to prefer mediocre results (after all, complete failure DOES yield a better draft slot), but I guess the further a long this embarrassing brand of baseball goes, the more and more I yearn for even reasonably competitive baseball from my favorite team.

#24 Guest_USAFChief_*

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Posted 25 May 2013 - 07:36 PM

Arcia had been putting up ABs lately that were pretty bad. Pretty, pretty, pretty...bad. Plus, it's better for him to be somewhere where he's going to play every day. There's a LH bat--of sorts--available in Parmelee. I can understand sending him down.

I don't get having both Wilkin Ramirez and Colabello on the team, but then again I don't understand a lot of things the Twins do.

#25 Mr. Brooks

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Posted 25 May 2013 - 07:38 PM

Arcia had been putting up ABs lately that were pretty bad. Pretty, pretty, pretty...bad. Plus, it's better for him to be somewhere where he's going to play every day. There's a LH bat--of sorts--available in Parmelee. I can understand sending him down.

I don't get having both Wilkin Ramirez and Colabello on the team, but then again I don't understand a lot of things the Twins do.


Again though, at least he's also had some really good AB's. I would contend that there are guys on this team who have been putting up bad AB's all season long.

And, I agree on the playing time issue.
Once Gardy started refusing to play Arcia, TR really had no choice but to send him down so he could play, so I guess my beef is with Gardy and not Ryan.

#26 jokin

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Posted 25 May 2013 - 07:41 PM

I agree. But here is the area I find myself in, and why I'm so disappointed in Arcia going down, and Gibson not coming up:

I used to say that there would be no joy in a .500'ish season. My philosophy before the season was that if you arent going to contend for a WS, you might as well be brutal, and get better draft picks.
Well, I learned something about myself during that brief flirtation with .500 baseball over the first 5 weeks. I was wrong. I was enjoying this season a whole hell of a lot more than I enjoyed the last 2.
I was under no illusions that this team had any shot at winning the division, and also recognized that it was a lot of smoke and mirrors, and likely wouldnt last, but at the end of the day, it WAS fun following a team that was .500, as opposed to the embarrassing garbage we've had the last 2 years.

So, I wanted that to continue as long as it could.
Yes, Arcia has slumped lately, but even so, he still is one of the 3 or 4 best hitters on this team.
Sure, Gibson hasn't been the model of consistency that Sam Deduno and PJ Walters have, and no, we havent seen him throw a single MLB pitch, but I still feel very strongly that he would be easily one of our top 5 starting pitchers right now.

And I keep hearing the argument (mostly on the radio, havent been here much) that, "relax, adding Gibson doesn't turn this team into a WS contender, so it doesnt matter", ETC., ETC.
Yes, we all know that is true, but if Arcia and Gibson can each add a couple more wins, and maybe Meyer and heaven forbid Sano can come up in September and each add a win or so, then just maybe we could string out enjoyable baseball for the entire year. But, that dream is now dead.

During the last 2 years I had the complete opposite stance in this regard, and perhaps its selfish of me to prefer mediocre results (after all, complete failure DOES yield a better draft slot), but I guess the further a long this embarrassing brand of baseball goes, the more and more I yearn for even reasonably competitive baseball from my favorite team.


Just a real-time update; Gibson has thrown 8 innings of shutout ball again tonight on 111 pitches thrown- 2 hits/3BB/7K- I assume he's done for the night.

"Consistency" anyone?

#27 jokin

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Posted 25 May 2013 - 07:44 PM

Arcia had been putting up ABs lately that were pretty bad. Pretty, pretty, pretty...bad. Plus, it's better for him to be somewhere where he's going to play every day. There's a LH bat--of sorts--available in Parmelee. I can understand sending him down.

I don't get having both Wilkin Ramirez and Colabello on the team, but then again I don't understand a lot of things the Twins do.


Since the team is mostly bereft of players who allegedly can play CF, "take charge" Ramirez simply has to be on the roster. Anyone notice, besides the Willingham collision, the horrendous route he took on Hunter's "double"?

#28 Mr. Brooks

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Posted 25 May 2013 - 07:46 PM

Since the team is mostly bereft of players who allegedly can play CF, "take charge" Ramirez simply has to be on the roster. Anyone notice, besides the Willingham collision, the horrendous route he took on Hunter's "double"?


A roster with not a single backup CF'er on it. (Ramirez is by default only, he's brutal).
Just another fine example of the brilliant foresight and roster management by Terry Ryan that would lead to 99% confidence in his ability.

#29 Guest_USAFChief_*

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Posted 25 May 2013 - 07:48 PM

Since the team is mostly bereft of players who allegedly can play CF, "take charge" Ramirez simply has to be on the roster. Anyone notice, besides the Willingham collision, the horrendous route he took on Hunter's "double"?

There is no reason that I'm aware of that this team needs a backup CF on the 25 man roster. Hicks can play every day, and if you absolutely have to give him a day off for rest or minor injury, Escobar or Parmelee in CF for a day isn't any worse than Ramiriz. If Hicks gets hurt, you can have someone here from Rochester the next day.

In this day and age of 12 and 13 man bullpens, most teams with everyday CFers get by without having a true CFer as their 4th OFer. IMO obsessing over having a backup CFer is as shortsighted as having a third C on the 25 man roster.

#30 Mr. Brooks

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Posted 25 May 2013 - 07:54 PM

There is no reason that I'm aware of that this team needs a backup CF on the 25 man roster. Hicks can play every day, and if you absolutely have to give him a day off for rest or minor injury, Escobar or Parmelee in CF for a day isn't any worse than Ramiriz. If Hicks gets hurt, you can have someone here from Rochester the next day.

In this day and age of 12 and 13 man bullpens, most teams with everyday CFers get by without having a true CFer as their 4th OFer. IMO obsessing over having a backup CFer is as shortsighted as having a third C on the 25 man roster.


I disagree slightly.
Every roster is going to have a 4th OF'er. In that case, you might as well have it be someone who is capable of playing all 3 OF spots.
I get your argument that they should be asked to play CF so infrequently that it doesnt matter much, and I agree to an extent, but IMO what is the harm in simply having that 4th OF'er be someone who can play all 3 spots?
It's not like Wilkin Ramirez is Thome esque at the plate, so you live with his defense. If you are going to have a 4th OF'er who doesn't hit much, he might as well be able to field a little bit.