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Now is it time to get rid of Anderson??

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#1 whydidnt

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Posted 22 May 2013 - 02:31 PM

We are approaching the end of May and it seems like every starter on the staff has gotten progressively worse as the year has gone on. Worley's start today is just the icing on the cake. We've had terrible pitching the last 2 years, and now this year is more of the same.

Ryan brought in the guys he and his scouts thought were the best for the team, right? So who takes the fall? If we are to believe Ryan, he recognized there was a problem last year and upgraded in the off-season, so it' obviously not his fault. Seems like now is the time he tell's Anderson it's no longer working here and we need to go another direction. Either that or he has to admit he was wrong and should have been more aggressive about bringing in more options to start for us.

At some point, someone, somewhere, in this organization has to own responsibility for how awful the starting staff is. Who is that person, and when are we going see a real effort to fix the issue?

#2 ThePuck

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Posted 22 May 2013 - 02:52 PM

Worley, Pelfrey and Corriea are most definitely Ryan's fault IMO. I'm no Anderson backer, but still..

#3 mike wants wins

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Posted 22 May 2013 - 03:27 PM

You want accountability? You can't handle accountability.....
Lighten up Francis....

#4 greengoblinrulz

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Posted 22 May 2013 - 03:33 PM

every Twins apologist knows that Rick Anderson is not at fault for the pitchers performing poorly.....he only gets credit when they pitch well. Now lay off of him

#5 adjacent

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Posted 22 May 2013 - 04:49 PM

The thing is, getting rid of Anderson is getting rid of Gardy, pretty much. I would think that if they are going to go that way, they will wait till the end of the season.

#6 JB_Iowa

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Posted 22 May 2013 - 04:54 PM

Corollary to how long before they get rid of Rick Anderson: How long before they bring Drew Butera back to the Twins?

#7 Kobs

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Posted 22 May 2013 - 05:04 PM

I have no problem with getting rid of Anderson, but it sure shouldn't be because the staff has "gotten worse." These are bad pitchers pitching like they should, just like last season.

#8 TheLeviathan

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Posted 22 May 2013 - 05:26 PM

I wonder how much input Anderson has in who the Twins bring in and who they call up/send down. He's been around long enough that you'd think he has some influence right?

#9 Riverbrian

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Posted 22 May 2013 - 05:42 PM

I don't know... Something ain't right.

Execution is on the pitcher. Some pitchers are executing fine... Correia has been ahead of expectation thus far... Diamond was ahead of expectation last year.

Some are not... In total.. The problem is probably in a bunch of places from front office to Gardy to Andy to the player to luck.

Something ain't right... And if Worley and Pelfrey can't respond to Andy... Get somebody else to throw on that mound who is buying what Andy is selling.

If Andy is selling the wrong thing. I don't know.
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#10 Nick Nelson

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Posted 22 May 2013 - 05:52 PM

I have no problem with getting rid of Anderson, but it sure shouldn't be because the staff has "gotten worse." These are bad pitchers pitching like they should, just like last season.

I dunno, Diamond and Worley were both pretty decent last year, though it's unclear how much their offseason surgeries are affecting their current results. No one should be surprised by Pelfrey's ineffectiveness. As for Hendriks/Hernandez, your last sentence applies.

Personally I don't really hold Anderson accountable for the struggles of the staff but he doesn't have much ground to stand on at this point. Outside of maybe one or two success stories, he hasn't shown the ability to straighten anyone out over the last three seasons. Really starting to seem like his methods are outdated.

#11 silverslugger

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Posted 22 May 2013 - 06:01 PM

What are Andy's methods? As I recall, back when the Twins were decent he was known as a guy who wanted pitchers to throw strikes and avoid walks. It sure seems like the Twins as an organization are turning from that philosophy, albeit slowly. Also, it seems most pitchers who have credited someone in the organization for assistance or a turnaround have credited Cuellar, not Andy. Is it a coincidence that Cuellar is in the big league clubhouse this season?

#12 Willihammer

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Posted 22 May 2013 - 06:19 PM

You just can't ask guys to go out there and throw cutters or fastballs to hitters 3 or 4 times a night. Its too predictable, too straight. The margin for error is too small. Most guys aren't Cliff Lee.

#13 drjim

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Posted 22 May 2013 - 06:32 PM

I can't imagine Gardy and the coaching staff survive a third terrible season, their fault or not. It's probably about time, 12 years is a pretty good run in any significant leadership position.
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#14 whydidnt

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Posted 22 May 2013 - 08:23 PM

I don't know... Something ain't right.

Execution is on the pitcher. Some pitchers are executing fine... Correia has been ahead of expectation thus far... Diamond was ahead of expectation last year.

Some are not... In total.. The problem is probably in a bunch of places from front office to Gardy to Andy to the player to luck.

Something ain't right... And if Worley and Pelfrey can't respond to Andy... Get somebody else to throw on that mound who is buying what Andy is selling.

If Andy is selling the wrong thing. I don't know.


None of us really know and I really don't think Anderson has much to work with, but...
Diamond and Worley are both doing MUCH worse than expected, Pelfrey has just been plain bad. I'd argue that Corriea is doing just what was expected, his peripherals are all very close to his career average - except he's walking 1 less per inning (made up by 1 more hit/inning) and he's Striking out WAY fewer - 1.3 per inning than last year. I'd say he's been lucky that more of the guys that he's let on base haven't scored - and his stats bring me back to Anderson. Why are his walks and K's depressed this year? Is that Anderson's influence? Don't know, but based upon the track record it wouldn't surprise me. The common thread among all Twins starters this year is the K/9 rate being worse than at any point in their careers. Either they are being coached to pitch to contact OR Ryan and his staff did an awful job identifying how these guys would pitch coming off of injuries. Either way, someone is responsible and it's time for the Twins to TRY to fix what is broken.

As far as guys not responding to Andy, isn't it his job to get the most out of players and to figure out how to get them to respond? How many guys need to not respond before you have to look a the coach?

#15 Physics Guy

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Posted 22 May 2013 - 08:52 PM

Diamond is not doing MUCH worse than expected. He has 4 quality starts out of seven and his numbers are greatly skewed by his last outing. Prior to that he was at 4.08 ERA. Do you expect much better than that? His numbers last year are about his ceiling.

#16 whydidnt

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Posted 22 May 2013 - 09:16 PM

Diamond is not doing MUCH worse than expected. He has 4 quality starts out of seven and his numbers are greatly skewed by his last outing. Prior to that he was at 4.08 ERA. Do you expect much better than that? His numbers last year are about his ceiling.

Well, he's given up 6 ERs in each of his last two starts, but before that I agree he was doing about what was expected. Look at the K's over the last 5 starts (in order) though: 5,4,3,2,0,1 - notice a pattern? Either he's got an injury we aren't hearing about or something else is going on with how he's pitching. If my memory is correct he was the worst LH starter in baseball last year when it comes to K/9 and he's a full strikeout+/9 worse this year.

I do agree last year was better than most of us expected, but by appearances he's going backwards - isn't he young enough were he should at least be stable or even improve slightly? Is it all on him? Is there an injury? Is Anderson beating him over missing on some pitches so he groves one every now and then? It must be one of the above, and it seems like every starter the Twins runs out there this year has the same problem. To my original point - Is Ryan going to blame himself or make Anderson the scapegoat? Someone is going to have to take responsibility, aren't they?

#17 spideyo

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Posted 22 May 2013 - 09:32 PM

I think the next month or two is really going to make or break Anderson's (and possibly Gardy's) future with this organization.

No matter how good a coach is, he's still just a coach, he isn't out on the mound. He can't force a guy to pitch better, and nobody is deliberately sabotaging their pitchers.

The real test is how he helps players identify what needs to change, give them a plan to help change that, goals to aim for, and how he handles players that arent performing well and fail to make improvements.

I don't know how the decision was made to send Worley down, but it's very interesting that the announcement was made so quickly. I hope for the sake of the team that Andy is stepping up and being more bold and decisive with the staff. We'll see though.

#18 mike wants wins

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Posted 23 May 2013 - 07:11 AM

If it is not a coach's job to make players better, no matter how bad they are, what is his job? I mean, if all we are going to say about Gardy and Anderson is that they have no responsibility when the players are bad, why not jus hire me to do their jobs?
Lighten up Francis....

#19 nicksaviking

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Posted 23 May 2013 - 08:05 AM

Just like with Gardenhire, I don't want Anderson to get the axe just so Ryan can defelct some of the blame, nearly all of which should be on his shoulders. Though, like Gardenhire and Ryan, I'm not so sure the modern game hasn't passed Anderson by. These guys all seem to prefer 1980's baseball which no longer exists.

On a totally unrelated note not at all related to this situation even in a little bit, has anyone noticed Liriano's start with Pittsburgh? His 1st two outings he didn't make it out of the 6th but was pretty dominant. He went seven and was dominant again yesterday. I wonder what got into him, he was always a slow starter in MN?

#20 Mr. Brooks

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Posted 23 May 2013 - 08:06 AM

Everyone knows the pitching coach takes no blame for terrible pitching performances, it is obviously the bullpen coaches fault!

#21 Nick Nelson

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Posted 23 May 2013 - 08:39 AM

On a totally unrelated note not at all related to this situation even in a little bit, has anyone noticed Liriano's start with Pittsburgh? His 1st two outings he didn't make it out of the 6th but was pretty dominant. He went seven and was dominant again yesterday. I wonder what got into him, he was always a slow starter in MN?


I noticed a quote from Anderson that was recently published stating he "knew Liriano would be a good pitcher now that he was going to the NL," or something to that effect. In other words, Anderson knew that Liriano would realize his potential once he joined another team.

Isn't that pretty much a direct admission of personal failure? I know it's a bit easier to get good results in the Senior Circuit (someone tell TR) but that's a little hard to stomach.

I'll say this much: if Anderson can't work with guys like Liriano (erratic with big stuff and tricky mechanics) then he's clearly not the one who should be handling this next wave, with Meyer/May/etc.

#22 ThePuck

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Posted 23 May 2013 - 08:42 AM

I noticed a quote from Anderson that was recently published stating he "knew Liriano would be a good pitcher now that he was going to the NL," or something to that effect. In other words, Anderson knew that Liriano would realize his potential once he joined another team.

Isn't that pretty much a direct admission of personal failure? I know it's a bit easier to get good results in the Senior Circuit (someone tell TR) but that's a little hard to stomach.

I'll say this much: if Anderson can't work with guys like Liriano (erratic with big stuff and tricky mechanics) then he's clearly not the one who should be handling this next wave, with Meyer/May/etc.


' Twins pitching coach Rick Anderson spoke with someone in the Pittsburgh Pirates organization during the offseason and told them he thought Liriano would "prosper" in the National League because those hitters aren't yet used to Frankie's sweeping slider.'

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#23 CRArko

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Posted 23 May 2013 - 08:57 AM

' Twins pitching coach Rick Anderson spoke with someone in the Pittsburgh Pirates organization during the offseason and told them he thought Liriano would "prosper" in the National League because those hitters aren't yet used to Frankie's sweeping slider.'

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It would appear the unspoken implication there is that he might not do as well once they've seen him a few times. That remains to be seen, but would be consistent with Frankie's history.

#24 ThePuck

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Posted 23 May 2013 - 08:58 AM

It would appear the unspoken implication there is that he might not do as well once they've seen him a few times. That remains to be seen, but would be consistent with Frankie's history.


I was just providing the quote. I'm glad he's gone, myself.

#25 nicksaviking

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Posted 23 May 2013 - 09:04 AM

Isn't that pretty much a direct admission of personal failure? I know it's a bit easier to get good results in the Senior Circuit (someone tell TR) but that's a little hard to stomach.

I'll say this much: if Anderson can't work with guys like Liriano (erratic with big stuff and tricky mechanics) then he's clearly not the one who should be handling this next wave, with Meyer/May/etc.


I have those concerns as well. However I wonder if the Twins failure with Liriano had more to do with Liriano's style not meshing with the Twins philosophy more than anything. The Twins could not get around the fact that Liriano was not going to go deep into a lot of games due to a high pitch count. It seemed that they would try to push him to limit pitches to become more of a Twins type of pitcher, yet he would then just become hittable which would limit his innings anyway.

It's frustrating becuase the Twins show displeasure with pitchers who don't go deep into games due to a high pitch count attributed to working into deep counts and allowing free passes yet seem to make excuses for pitchers who don't go deep into games because they are extremely hittable.

Liriano probably will do well in the NL. He might lose some steam once teams see his slider for the second time and start laying off, but he'll probably succeed because the Pirates won't get as frustrated with him not being able to finish 7 innings.

#26 nicksaviking

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Posted 23 May 2013 - 09:13 AM

It would appear the unspoken implication there is that he might not do as well once they've seen him a few times. That remains to be seen, but would be consistent with Frankie's history.


That would seem logical but it was not how Liriano's productivity played out in Minnesota. He was actually at his worst in the beginning of the year. April was his worst month. He usually became lights out in late May through July before tailing off again.

I always associated his April struggles with him being rusty, but this year he missed the first month and has pitched well in his first three starts. Perhaps it wasn't rust that caused him to pitch poorly early, perhaps it was the weather. Who knows. Either way, he usually pitched well through the mid-summer which means, at least for division foes, they had usually already faced him.

#27 Brock Beauchamp

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Posted 23 May 2013 - 09:16 AM

It's increasingly difficult to be positive about Rick Anderson. Sure, he doesn't have much in the way of talent to coach but what little talent he does have hasn't exactly thrived over the past three seasons.

#28 Willihammer

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Posted 23 May 2013 - 09:20 AM

It would appear the unspoken implication there is that he might not do as well once they've seen him a few times. That remains to be seen, but would be consistent with Frankie's history.


Frankie's slider has consistently been one of the top 4 or 5 in baseball. He just can't throw it unless he gets ahead in the count. That's been his problem, falling behind hitters neutralizes his best pitch.

#29 nicksaviking

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Posted 23 May 2013 - 09:34 AM

It's increasingly difficult to be positive about Rick Anderson. Sure, he doesn't have much in the way of talent to coach but what little talent he does have hasn't exactly thrived over the past three seasons.


Yeah, the past couple of years, Cuellar's rag tag team of over achieving AAAA pitchers with suspect baseball skills perform as well or better than Anderson's bargain barrel mess of vets the front office gives him. Neither have had much to work with but Cuellar certainly has made more out of the lack of talent.

#30 drjim

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Posted 23 May 2013 - 11:13 AM

It's increasingly difficult to be positive about Rick Anderson. Sure, he doesn't have much in the way of talent to coach but what little talent he does have hasn't exactly thrived over the past three seasons.


Yes indeed. I think most are starting to agree an overall shakeup of the pitching philosophy is probably called for. It would start with Anderson.

I still have a theory of the staff this season. The change is starting with half the staff but Ryan wanted to keep some stability so Gardy and Anderson stayed. Ryan was fine with this because he knew the season would be a struggle and didn't want the stink on the new manager. Molitor gets another year to work with the youngsters in the minors and leads them going forward.