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Cheers to Jason Collins

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#1 Shane Wahl

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Posted 29 April 2013 - 04:47 PM

Brave indeed. Chris Broussard is off his rocker.

And forget "tolerance" and move toward acceptance.

#2 TheLeviathan

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Posted 29 April 2013 - 07:25 PM

Explain Broussard reference please?

Good for him!

#3 drjim

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Posted 29 April 2013 - 08:19 PM

Good for Collins.

I don't agree with Broussard, but what he said should not be that controversial of a position for a Christian to take. Not culturally sensitive but not off his rocker.

Here is the quote:

Personally, I don’t believe that you can live an openly homosexual lifestyle, or like, premarital sex between heterosexuals… it says that that’s a sin… I believe that’s walking in open rebellion to God and to Jesus Christ. So, I would not characterize that person as a Christian, because I don’t think the Bible would characterize that person as a Christian.

Papers...business papers.

#4 TheLeviathan

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Posted 29 April 2013 - 08:23 PM

Yeah, I disagree with Broussard, but he said that about as non-offensively as he can. Unfortunately most all major religions are still about exclusion as opposed to inclusion.

#5 biggentleben

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Posted 29 April 2013 - 08:42 PM

Good for Collins.

I don't agree with Broussard, but what he said should not be that controversial of a position for a Christian to take. Not culturally sensitive but not off his rocker.


His last sentence is where he's off his rocker. Basic Christian theology at its core says we're all sinners, fell short of being worthy of heaven on our own, and required Jesus as a sacrifice for all of our sins - past, current, and future. At the very basic level of Christian theology, everyone is in open rebellion to God in every moment of his/her earthly life, and by Broussard's words, that would deem them "not a Christian".

Christianity is under fire for exactly reasons like this - the extreme nutjobs don't just attack those who don't believe in Christ, but those who do as well.
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#6 TheLeviathan

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Posted 29 April 2013 - 08:48 PM

I think Broussard meant by "open rebellion" = "sin with no desire forgiveness" - that's how I read it. That is considerably different than what you are suggesting ben.

#7 Shane Wahl

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Posted 29 April 2013 - 09:40 PM

Good lord (literally). He's using his religion to condemn someone as a "non-christian."

FYI people: one can be a Christian and not hate gay people or think they are special dirty sinners at the same time.

Or, if that is a wrong interpretation of my part, PERHAPS the religion itself should be called into question?

#8 biggentleben

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Posted 29 April 2013 - 09:41 PM

I think Broussard meant by "open rebellion" = "sin with no desire forgiveness" - that's how I read it. That is considerably different than what you are suggesting ben.


Yep, and there are plenty we do every day. Nearly every Christian church allows for a remarried pastor who has been divorced to serve in ministry, and Jesus specifically spoke against that sin and said nothing directly on homosexuality. I doubt the divorced pastor is going to kick his new wife to the curb so he's not in "open rebellion", yet his "rebellion" is accepted and being homosexual is not.
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#9 TheLeviathan

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Posted 29 April 2013 - 09:45 PM

Yep, and there are plenty we do every day. Nearly every Christian church allows for a remarried pastor who has been divorced to serve in ministry, and Jesus specifically spoke against that sin and said nothing directly on homosexuality. I doubt the divorced pastor is going to kick his new wife to the curb so he's not in "open rebellion", yet his "rebellion" is accepted and being homosexual is not.


But here's the thing - Collins isn't asking for forgiveness (nor should he have to) - that's the "open" part I think you're missing.

And I'm not defending Broussard's point - I think it's entirely idiotic - but I don't think it was offensive. Stupid, but not "off his rocker" - it's not an uncommon Christian belief unfortunately.

#10 Ultima Ratio

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Posted 30 April 2013 - 01:16 AM

What I've learned it this thread [SIZE=1](There may be a little staw man at work, but not much -- enjoy, my brothers and sisters)[/SIZE]:

1. It's a sin to be a Christian (who takes the Bible seriously), or at least unfortunate and idiotic.

2. Understanding the distinction of sex-act and sexuality is not understood or of no avail.

3. The word "repent" is not nearly as well understood as I thought, but what I think doesn't matter (see 6).

4. Identifying sin is hateful or at least culturally insensitive, but only when the identification is relevant to endeared victim groups demanding validation (see that identifying premarital heterosexual sex as sin is neither hateful nor culturally insensitive).

5. The only good Christian is the Christian willing to believe whatever is expedient and whatever will ingratiate oneself to others (see 6 and inclusivity).

6. TD can never have enough threads and posts

a) celebrating tolerance and acceptance
B) bashing views contrary to (a)

7. Inconsistency doesn't matter as long as you hold the correct views....today (see 5 and inclusivity/exclusivity)

8. Irony may not be well understood (see 6 and 7)

9. Writing this list is super mean and bigoted, some will think.

10. Therefore, this post will be flagged as offensive (see 7, 8, and 9)

Edited by Ultima Ratio, 30 April 2013 - 01:21 AM.


#11 TheLeviathan

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Posted 30 April 2013 - 05:48 AM

In lieu of an actual point I guess I would suggest another:

11. This list is not, in fact super mean, but fails to be witty, thought provoking, or relevant.

#12 drjim

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Posted 30 April 2013 - 05:53 AM

Thanks Levi you pretty much nailed any point I would have made.

#13 SpiritofVodkaDave

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Posted 30 April 2013 - 05:56 AM

Broussard is a hack and they never should have had his ass on the air to begin with, as a Christian (Catholic) myself I find his "speaking of behalf of the religion" to be highly inflammatory and off base as well. He was also going off about how if you have pre martial sex you aren't a Christian....yeah..... what was ESPN thinking by bringing him on?

#14 mike wants wins

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Posted 30 April 2013 - 07:02 AM

I think it was a brave act, otherwise it wouldn't be a big deal. You can read all over the interwebs the hatred for homosexuals and those that are fighting for them to have equal rights. Just read the Kluew threads on PFT for evidence of that.....

As for religions, well, in addition to being about power, they are made up of people trying to interpret words that other people wrote about some kind of being that they all admit they can't understand. It is no wonder that so much of the intolerance, hatred, and violence of this world is driven by religion. Personally, I have no issue with Christains thinking sin exists, and that certain things are sins even if I totally disagree. The issue I have is trying to force their belief on others. NO ONE is forcing any church to marry homosexuals (just as no one is forcing the Catholic church to have female priests), all people are asking for is that governments be allowed to offer the same legal rights to homosexual couples that heterosexual couples have (well, to be fair, there is a tiny fringe asking for non-couple rights also, but I don't think that is a real thing).

In summary, good for the brave man, bad for intolerance and bigotry, freedom is eventually coming to all.
Lighten up Francis....

#15 biggentleben

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Posted 30 April 2013 - 10:14 AM

But here's the thing - Collins isn't asking for forgiveness (nor should he have to) - that's the "open" part I think you're missing.


However, neither would the divorced and remarried person either. That's what my point was. Nearly every Christian denomination would accept a divorced and remarried pastor to lead their congregation, and certainly they would not question the validity of his faith.
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#16 Brock Beauchamp

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Posted 30 April 2013 - 10:25 AM

How many references are there to homosexuality in the Bible? Does it extend beyond the lunacy of Leviticus?

Because if it doesn't, I doubt there are many people out there who ask for forgiveness when they touch pig flesh or get a tattoo, yet they're still considered Christians.

#17 biggentleben

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Posted 30 April 2013 - 10:41 AM

How many references are there to homosexuality in the Bible? Does it extend beyond the lunacy of Leviticus?

Because if it doesn't, I doubt there are many people out there who ask for forgiveness when they touch pig flesh or get a tattoo, yet they're still considered Christians.


There are 5: Leviticus, the Genesis story of Sodom, Romans 1:26-27, 1 Corinthians 6:9-10, and 1 Timothy 1:9-10. Nothing from Jesus in the Gospels or Acts.
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#18 Brock Beauchamp

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Posted 30 April 2013 - 10:54 AM

There are 5: Leviticus, the Genesis story of Sodom, Romans 1:26-27, 1 Corinthians 6:9-10, and 1 Timothy 1:9-10. Nothing from Jesus in the Gospels or Acts.


Ah, okay. Still, my point applies. There is no sliding scale for the "level of sin". Anyone who claims that living outside the Bible without asking forgiveness is a hypocrite because everybody lives outside the Bible, and for good reason. You'd be thrown in jail in this country if you lived your life based on the book of Leviticus, yet last time I checked, that book is still in the Old Testament.

#19 PseudoSABR

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Posted 30 April 2013 - 12:20 PM

[COLOR=#333333]endeared victim groups[/COLOR]

This is the tail on your donkey.

#20 TheLeviathan

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Posted 30 April 2013 - 03:00 PM

This is the tail on your donkey.


I always chuckle when Christians get high and mighty about divorce. That one made me laugh too. As if the "sin" of premarital sex has one iota of the same amount of attention Christians are giving to gays.

Also, didn't Christianity essentially start with God having premarital sex with a virgin? That was my understanding.....

#21 mike wants wins

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Posted 30 April 2013 - 03:25 PM

I always chuckle when any religion says some sins should be against the law, because they are sins, but other sins, not so much. There has to be more to it than just sin to be agains the law, otherwise liars would be in prison.....heck, just coveting your neighbors wife inside your head without even doing anything about it would put you in jail. Those ones were supposedly written by lightning onto tablets for all to see, yet no one wants to make those against the law.....*

*well, no one in the US that has any influence anyway
Lighten up Francis....

#22 mikecgrimes

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Posted 30 April 2013 - 05:36 PM

A 34 year old who averaged a point a game and has no contract next year is kind of putting the league in a bad spot. Still don't know of a single pro athlete who has declared there straightness. Just seems kind of selfish to use this in an attempt to get a job next year, why not do it at 29 or after you retire?

#23 Brock Beauchamp

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Posted 01 May 2013 - 05:52 AM

A 34 year old who averaged a point a game and has no contract next year is kind of putting the league in a bad spot. Still don't know of a single pro athlete who has declared there straightness.


You have to be kidding me. Collins has put the LEAGUE in a bad spot? Oh, poor NBA. I don't know how they'll cope, knowing that a gay man is prancing up and down their courts three times a week.

As for declaring straightness...

/facepalm

Collins did this at exactly the right time. He's nearing the end of his career. He won't have too many ugly road games in front of him but the point is still made... He's an active professional athlete who has publicly declared his homosexuality. There's a reason this has never happened. Athletes are scared to do it because of public backlash in an arena of society that isn't known for its progressive thought processes.

#24 mikecgrimes

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Posted 01 May 2013 - 04:23 PM

You have to be kidding me. Collins has put the LEAGUE in a bad spot? Oh, poor NBA. I don't know how they'll cope, knowing that a gay man is prancing up and down their courts three times a week.

As for declaring straightness...

/facepalm

Collins did this at exactly the right time. He's nearing the end of his career.


That right there makes my point. He's nearing the end of his career? No he's a 34 year old that averaged 1 point a game who has no contract. Sure a team might of signed him but given the veteran minimum I doubt it. Now the league has no choice but to find a spot for him, at the expense by the way of someone else. We all make big decisions based on more then one factor, if his contract situation had anything to do with it then he is pathetic. Only he knows the truth, and he will continue to have to live with the truth. Having people in Idaho know he happens to prefer men to women will be of little impact to him other then the pressure it puts on the NBA to give him one more undeserved contract.

#25 mikecgrimes

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Posted 01 May 2013 - 04:30 PM

By the way the idea that he or even a star player would have to deal with half of what Jackie Robinson dealt with is dumb at best. We as a society are fine with homosexuals. That being said we as a society do not care who you prefer to have sexual relations with and find it self serving to make a big deal about it.

#26 biggentleben

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Posted 01 May 2013 - 04:32 PM

By the way the idea that he or even a star player would have to deal with half of what Jackie Robinson dealt with is dumb at best. We as a society are fine with homosexuals. That being said we as a society do not care who you prefer to have sexual relations with and find it self serving to make a big deal about it.


Not sure what society you're a part of, but that's not true of much of society and CERTAINLY is not true in the society of professional male athletes who are active in their sport.
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#27 Brock Beauchamp

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Posted 01 May 2013 - 04:36 PM

We as a society are fine with homosexuals.


Yeah, that's not true at all. Not even a little bit. If society was fine with homosexuals, why are people up in arms about them getting married? Why do people protest their very existence? Why do politicians fight laws that deny employers the right to fire people based solely on sexual preference? If society was fine with homosexuals, no one would fire them for being gay in the first place.

And, again, if this is "no big deal", why is Collins the first active player in any major sport to publicly announce his homosexuality?

The law of numbers and the complete absence of other publicly gay active players dictate that this is a very big deal, whether you want to view it that way or not.

That being said we as a society do not care who you prefer to have sexual relations with and find it self serving to make a big deal about it.


No, it shouldn't be a big deal. Collins should be able to go to awards ceremonies, dinner, team events, continue ad nauseum, with his partner, male or female and nobody should care.

What I find "self-serving" are the people who think that men like Collins should stay in the closet because gay people are icky. He has every damned right to live his life and be honest about it, just like everybody else.

#28 biggentleben

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Posted 01 May 2013 - 04:37 PM

That right there makes my point. He's nearing the end of his career? No he's a 34 year old that averaged 1 point a game who has no contract. Sure a team might of signed him but given the veteran minimum I doubt it. Now the league has no choice but to find a spot for him, at the expense by the way of someone else. We all make big decisions based on more then one factor, if his contract situation had anything to do with it then he is pathetic. Only he knows the truth, and he will continue to have to live with the truth. Having people in Idaho know he happens to prefer men to women will be of little impact to him other then the pressure it puts on the NBA to give him one more undeserved contract.


I won't claim to be a well-versed NBA fan, but basically anyone who is an "expert" on NBA has said that he is a perfect backup center for purposes of defense. You cite points per game as if that's the only impact that a 7-foot tall player could have on the court. He's done nothing to the league. He's a guy who's living on one-year veteran's minimum contracts at this point, and he was all but guaranteed another one for 2013-2014 before this announcement. The league is in no different place now than they were before the announcement. I'm hearing from a lot of the anti-gay extreme right that same argument about the league, and most of them couldn't name more than 2 teams currently in the NBA playoffs.
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#29 Brock Beauchamp

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Posted 01 May 2013 - 04:39 PM

That right there makes my point. He's nearing the end of his career? No he's a 34 year old that averaged 1 point a game who has no contract. Sure a team might of signed him but given the veteran minimum I doubt it. Now the league has no choice but to find a spot for him, at the expense by the way of someone else. We all make big decisions based on more then one factor, if his contract situation had anything to do with it then he is pathetic. Only he knows the truth, and he will continue to have to live with the truth. Having people in Idaho know he happens to prefer men to women will be of little impact to him other then the pressure it puts on the NBA to give him one more undeserved contract.


I hate to break it to you but 34 year old big men in the NBA are usually near the end of their careers unless they are of extraordinary talent and/or durability. Running up and down a hardwood floor for 10+ years tends to destroy knees, ankles, and backs on even the guards, much less the seven footers.

#30 TheLeviathan

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Posted 01 May 2013 - 05:03 PM

I will say, I worry that this guy might not get a job next year because he's not a very good player and this effort on his part may be minimized. Or that he may not get a job because of talent but it will be perceived as reinforcing stereotypes.