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25-man roster set

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#1 IdahoPilgrim

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Posted 29 March 2013 - 12:27 PM

According to the Twins website, Tim Wood has been moved to the 15-day DL, and both Rafael Perez and Rich Harden have been moved to the minor league camp.

That basically sets the 25-man roster, with Wilkin Ramirez making the club. The only question left is what roster move they make on the 40-man roster to make room for Ramirez.

Do they get rid of one of the veterans (Burnett, Butera) or one of the minor leaguers (Hernandez, Thielbar, Pinto)? Thoughts?

Edited by IdahoPilgrim, 29 March 2013 - 12:40 PM.


#2 stringer bell

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Posted 29 March 2013 - 12:39 PM

I don't think Robertson should be looking for a place to live in Mpls. yet, and if he does, he should rent by the month.

#3 IdahoPilgrim

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Posted 29 March 2013 - 12:43 PM

I don't think Robertson should be looking for a place to live in Mpls. yet, and if he does, he should rent by the month.


That may be, but it appears he's going to be there opening day, unless the Twins bring somebody back into camp that they sent down earlier this spring.

#4 SweetOne69

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Posted 29 March 2013 - 01:05 PM

That may be, but it appears he's going to be there opening day, unless the Twins bring somebody back into camp that they sent down earlier this spring.


While Robertson will be there opening day, he won't be by the time they come back from their road trip to Baltimore and KC. I imagine that Swarzak will be activated by the time that the Twins get back home to play the Mets and that Robertson will be optioned to Rochester.

#5 spideyo

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Posted 29 March 2013 - 01:14 PM

It won't be pinto or butera. They would lose them on waivers, guaranteed.

I would guess thielbar or Hernandez. Burnett has had some flashes of adequacy in the bigs, at that might be enough for someone to grab him

#6 Mr. Brooks

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Posted 29 March 2013 - 03:40 PM

It won't be pinto or butera. They would lose them on waivers, guaranteed.

I would guess thielbar or Hernandez. Burnett has had some flashes of adequacy in the bigs, at that might be enough for someone to grab him


My question would be, why exactly are we concerned about losing some of these players?
Drew Butera is a career negative WAR player. Losing a player like that is not a significant loss, IMO.

#7 70charger

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Posted 29 March 2013 - 03:58 PM

I'm gonna guess Burnett. Anyone want to put money on it?

#8 gil4

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Posted 29 March 2013 - 04:54 PM

[COLOR=#ff0000]Today, 04:58 PM[/COLOR] I'm gonna guess Burnett. Anyone want to put money on it?


Amazing guess. How did you do it? [COLOR=#ff0000] :rolleyes:[/COLOR]


Twins Daily - Blue Jays claim Alex Burnett off waivers
by [COLOR=#293854]Nick Nelson[/COLOR] [COLOR=#ff0000]Published on 03-29-2013 04:51 PM

[/COLOR]

#9 Physics Guy

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Posted 29 March 2013 - 05:32 PM

While Robertson will be there opening day, he won't be by the time they come back from their road trip to Baltimore and KC. I imagine that Swarzak will be activated by the time that the Twins get back home to play the Mets and that Robertson will be optioned to Rochester.


My guess is that DeVries gets moved to the pen when Diamond is activated and Robertson goes to AAA.

#10 IdahoPilgrim

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Posted 29 March 2013 - 05:34 PM

People returning from the DL may indeed send Robertson to Rochester, but, given their track record, what are the odds that the staff stays healthy:)?

#11 Physics Guy

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Posted 29 March 2013 - 05:49 PM

People returning from the DL may indeed send Robertson to Rochester, but, given their track record, what are the odds that the staff stays healthy:)?


Well, not very good. DeVries was taken out after three innings today due to a sore right forearm. Maybe Robertson makes it past Diamond coming off the DL.

#12 spideyo

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Posted 29 March 2013 - 06:22 PM

My question would be, why exactly are we concerned about losing some of these players?
Drew Butera is a career negative WAR player. Losing a player like that is not a significant loss, IMO.


Butera is basically insurance against Doumit or Mauer getting hurt. He might not be a hitter, but do we have any other catchers in the system that you would trust during a "real" game?

Also, if they really didn't care about losing those guys, they could probably trade them and at least get something for them.



Looks like I was right though about someone being willing to grab Burnett.

#13 Mr. Brooks

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Posted 29 March 2013 - 06:31 PM

Butera is basically insurance against Doumit or Mauer getting hurt. He might not be a hitter, but do we have any other catchers in the system that you would trust during a "real" game?

Also, if they really didn't care about losing those guys, they could probably trade them and at least get something for them.



Looks like I was right though about someone being willing to grab Burnett.


Again, Butera is WORSE than replacement level.
If Doumit or Mauer got hurt, Chris Hermann could come up and catch once every 4 days. He couldnt be much worse than Butera.

#14 SpiritofVodkaDave

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Posted 29 March 2013 - 06:43 PM

Meh, who cares about Butera, as long as he is in AAA he isn't hurting the club.

Burnett sucked, not sad to see him go, but he seemed nice enough so maybe he can at least make a few bucks the next few years.

#15 Kwak

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Posted 29 March 2013 - 06:49 PM

There will be a revolving door between Minneapolis and Rochester.

#16 Mr. Brooks

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Posted 29 March 2013 - 06:54 PM

Meh, who cares about Butera, as long as he is in AAA he isn't hurting the club.

Burnett sucked, not sad to see him go, but he seemed nice enough so maybe he can at least make a few bucks the next few years.


Part 1: As long as he is in AAA he is just one phone call away from hurting the club. And I think we've all seen that once Gardy gets him on that bench, he remembers how much he likes him, and he never goes back down.

Part 2: Burnett isn't good either, but he's marginally better than Butera. Butera is a negative WAR player, Burnett is exactly WAR neutral.
While lose Burnett is a okay with me, I'm just saying if I were making a list of players that I'd give the boot to, Butera would be a notch or 2 higher than Burnett, although they'd both be on the list.

#17 old nurse

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Posted 29 March 2013 - 07:19 PM

Again, Butera is WORSE than replacement level.
If Doumit or Mauer got hurt, Chris Hermann could come up and catch once every 4 days. He couldnt be much worse than Butera.

In the last three years what other catcher in the minor league system did the Twins have to replace Butera?
In regards to Hermann at the major league level you might have missed a couple of things. This spring and last fall Hermann proved he was not ready for magor league level of play. Batting 056 is better than .196?

#18 TheLeviathan

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Posted 29 March 2013 - 07:31 PM

This spring and last fall Hermann proved he was not ready for magor league level of play. Batting 056 is better than .196?


19 ABs decided that huh? I'm not saying he is or isn't, but that's pretty flimsy evidence.

#19 spideyo

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Posted 29 March 2013 - 07:41 PM

Seriously, I know that Butera is a terrible hitter, but he is NOT a terrible catcher. He's a very good catcher and has a track record of working very well with our pitchers. I'm not going to advocate that he takes over as a starter, but he is more than capable of being a backup catcher, especially if we can get the rest of our lineup hitting decently.

Right now in AAA he can be very valuable working with Gibson, Deduno, and the other pitchers down there who might make it to the bigs this year.

#20 Mr. Brooks

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Posted 29 March 2013 - 07:47 PM

Seriously, I know that Butera is a terrible hitter, but he is NOT a terrible catcher. He's a very good catcher and has a track record of working very well with our pitchers. I'm not going to advocate that he takes over as a starter, but he is more than capable of being a backup catcher, especially if we can get the rest of our lineup hitting decently.

Right now in AAA he can be very valuable working with Gibson, Deduno, and the other pitchers down there who might make it to the bigs this year.


LOL, the mythical legend of ol' Drew, working miracles with pitchers. Just seeing Drew behind that mask is enough to inspire confidence in any pitcher on the mound.

No, but seriously, do you have any data to back up this claim that Butera is some greek god at "working with pitchers"?
Because WAR takes both offense and defense (and baserunning) into account, and Butera is a negative WAR player.

#21 Lesser Dali

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Posted 29 March 2013 - 07:57 PM

LOL, the mythical legend of ol' Drew, working miracles with pitchers. Just seeing Drew behind that mask is enough to inspire confidence in any pitcher on the mound.

No, but seriously, do you have any data to back up this claim that Butera is some greek god at "working with pitchers"?
Because WAR takes both offense and defense (and baserunning) into account, and Butera is a negative WAR player.


Hello Mr. Brooks. Are you a man of religious faith?

#22 old nurse

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Posted 29 March 2013 - 07:58 PM

19 ABs decided that huh? I'm not saying he is or isn't, but that's pretty flimsy evidence.

Not evidence he belongs. Not proof he can't be. He hasn't played above AA. His AA numbers were pedestrian. That would be more of an indication he might not be much better than Butera. Problem is how is he as a catcher? If he was great as a catcher, why was he in the outfield?

#23 Mr. Brooks

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Posted 29 March 2013 - 08:05 PM

Not evidence he belongs. Not proof he can't be. He hasn't played above AA. His AA numbers were pedestrian. That would be more of an indication he might not be much better than Butera. Problem is how is he as a catcher? If he was great as a catcher, why was he in the outfield?


But that is the problem. You are trying to get someone to say he can be a good hitter, or a good catcher.
He doesn't need to be either, to be an insurance policy if Mauer or Doumit get hurt.
Again, Drew Butera is a negative WAR player. Hermann would only need to be replacement level to be a fairly big upgrade over Butera.
And I'm not saying he even needs to be an upgrade, which lowers the standards significantly.
All he needs to do is "not be any worse" than Butera, which is not a very high standard.
By definition, Hermann is pretty much a replacement level player.

#24 old nurse

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Posted 29 March 2013 - 08:05 PM

LOL, the mythical legend of ol' Drew, working miracles with pitchers. Just seeing Drew behind that mask is enough to inspire confidence in any pitcher on the mound.

No, but seriously, do you have any data to back up this claim that Butera is some greek god at "working with pitchers"?
Because WAR takes both offense and defense (and baserunning) into account, and Butera is a negative WAR player.

You could do he research yourself and find out if there was a difference in the ERA of the staff when Butera pitch versus not. What part of pitch selection is figured into WAR? What part of framing to get more strikes is figured into WAR? There is a lot more that goes on in a game than is computed by WAR.

#25 Mr. Brooks

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Posted 29 March 2013 - 08:05 PM

Not evidence he belongs. Not proof he can't be. He hasn't played above AA. His AA numbers were pedestrian. That would be more of an indication he might not be much better than Butera. Problem is how is he as a catcher? If he was great as a catcher, why was he in the outfield?


Pedestrian, sure. But also 140 points of OPS better than Butera's AA numbers.

#26 Mr. Brooks

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Posted 29 March 2013 - 08:06 PM

You could do he research yourself and find out if there was a difference in the ERA of the staff when Butera pitch versus not. What part of pitch selection is figured into WAR? What part of framing to get more strikes is figured into WAR? There is a lot more that goes on in a game than is computed by WAR.


Butera was shown to be a negative value catcher at framing pitches.

#27 Mr. Brooks

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Posted 29 March 2013 - 08:08 PM

You could do he research yourself and find out if there was a difference in the ERA of the staff when Butera pitch versus not. What part of pitch selection is figured into WAR? What part of framing to get more strikes is figured into WAR? There is a lot more that goes on in a game than is computed by WAR.


I'm not the one making the claim that Butera is great at working with pitchers, why do I have to do the research? Typically the burden of proof is on the person making the claim.

There are far too many variables to suggest that pitcher ERA is an accurate reflection of a catchers ability.

#28 spideyo

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Posted 29 March 2013 - 08:13 PM

I'm not a hardcore stats geek. I have no idea how WAR is calculated, so I'm not even going to attempt to make any argument against it. I don't know which stats to look at to best analyze his defensive abilities alone, since a lot of the traditional stats like Assists, Put-outs, and errors are not really going to give much insight into a player's catching ability.

Most of what I have to say about Butera is what I have personally witnessed, and what I have heard people talk about. I personally saw him catch a lot over the last two years, and it seemed like most of the time our pitchers were very comfortable with him. There didn't seem to be many passed balls, not many guys stealing on him, not too much confusion between the pitcher and catcher. Based on my personal observations, purely in terms of defensive ability, I think Butera is a far better catcher than Doumit.

I know his bat sucks, and this was a very big issue in 2011 (when he caught nearly twice as many games as Mauer), but that was also a year where we only had 4 guys hit over .280 for the season, and two of those were Parmelee (21 games) and Dinkelman (23 games).

If you look at his stats from 2010 and 2012, where he was used as a backup and not as our main catcher, his defensive value seems to balance out his offensive struggles much better (as far as I can tell from the advanced stats. Again, don't fully understand them)

It seems like all our Italian guys may fall into the Punto role... great guys in a backup role, but inspiring fan outrage when put into a starting role.

#29 Lesser Dali

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Posted 29 March 2013 - 08:15 PM

Not evidence he belongs. Not proof he can't be. He hasn't played above AA. His AA numbers were pedestrian. That would be more of an indication he might not be much better than Butera. Problem is how is he as a catcher? If he was great as a catcher, why was he in the outfield?


Not to steal this opportunity from Leviathan, but versatility leads to a better MLB opportunity, especially when you are athletic and able to play catcher and another position worthwhile.

Maybe Herrmann does not project a starter in the Bigs, but let's not fool ourselves with the notion that Herrmann's bat doesn't trump Butera's bat 10 fold.

Butera might call a good game and work well with pitchers, but if you can't handle the bat and you are not a pitcher, you do not belong in the Bigs. Butera has been an awful hitter at every level.

Maybe Butera should play the role of a good organizational man, do his due diligence at AAA, I would imagine there is a role waiting for him in the organization as a coach.

Who knows - someday he may end up being pitching coach or even manager of the MN Twins.

Edited by Lesser Dali, 29 March 2013 - 08:32 PM.


#30 TheLeviathan

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Posted 29 March 2013 - 08:17 PM

Not evidence he belongs. Not proof he can't be. He hasn't played above AA. His AA numbers were pedestrian. That would be more of an indication he might not be much better than Butera. Problem is how is he as a catcher? If he was great as a catcher, why was he in the outfield?


If you're looking three or four spots down on most team's catcher depth chart you're not going to find great players. The point is about the 40 man roster, which probably doesn't require us to keep all of Pinto, Butera, and Hermann. Butera seems like a logical waive.