Jump to content

Providing independent coverage of the Minnesota Twins.
Photo

The Twins Should Make Alex Kirilloff the Opening Day Left Fielder

  • Please log in to reply
35 replies to this topic

#21 T_J

T_J

    Ft Myers Mighty Mussels

  • Member
  • 218 posts

Posted 23 February 2021 - 08:28 PM

If AK is one of the best 25 players you start him opening day. I think he is. This season, more than most, every win is going to matter. Get your best on the field and start banking wins from the get go.

People want to talk about Boros like he's some villain or something. He is just a great advocate for his clients. I'd want him to represent me if I was a talented player too. The current system is pretty broken and will be adjusted in the next CBA. Plus, Boros is getting up there in age too. He's been doing this sports agent thing since the 80s. The guy is pushing 70 now. Who knows how long he's going to keep up the hustle!

#22 DocBauer

DocBauer

    Senior Member

  • Member
  • 7,167 posts

Posted 23 February 2021 - 08:47 PM

I'm going to echo statements made here, as well as repeating myself from other threads previously.

1] The FO has drawn actual, public praise from agents to reporters for their professionalism in the past, especially recently from the 2020 milb season/fallout, FA contacts/negotiations to the recent arbitration process. While our FO COULD choose the play the service time game, there is ZERO reason to EXPECT that they will. But for some reason, it's just been assumed that they will. And that's just wrong at this time.

2] I fully appreciate all the work Matt put in to his arguements about potential value at late 20yr old value comparisons but completely dismiss it. (Though to be fair, he did state there is the possibility Kirilloff bucks his statistical trends as stated). I simply can't and won't dismiss value of a top 23yo prospect 6 or 7 years from now being an excellent player because others aren't. I just don't see any truism in that arguement. There are statistics, damn statistics, and lies. I disagree with, "To get this narrative right, and to shape the arguement properly, we need to premediate upon and look at these threads of of arguement now".

The Twins love the kid and believe in him. The fact he was in St Paul and got his ONE GAME appearance in the playoffs proves that. And yes, he lost a year to injury and lost a covid year. Yes, he needs to prove himself, no matter how much the Twins love him and believe in him. But other pkayers have lost season's due to injury and all but a few lost the entire 2020 season. And if 2020 had been normal, he might be written in permanent ink for LF RIGHT NOW. But that's not what happened.

3] In ANY sport, you have a roster of players, college or professional. And you have an investment not only in playing your best players, but you have an investment in ALL of your players on that roster.

Matt, I'm a huge fan and believer in Kirilloff. And I can't wait to see him play daily and start to rake and reach his potential. I'm sure you feel the same. And I hate to be THAT GUY, but I have to re-quote something you said: "He's only still waiting to crack the roster because last season was truncated, and because of injury issues earlier in his professional career." This only seems to restate the fact that maybe he shouldn't be HANDED the job out of ST.

And I agree with you 100% that his play in ST will/should help determine the issue. But again, the Twins have an investment in Arraez and Rooker as well. And just taking a long and pragmatic view of that investment, don't those guys also deserve opportunity? (Leaving Cave out of the discussion because thus far he is what he is, a really nice 4th OF who might start for a lesser team).

Can we just drop the service time issue for a moment and look at reality? (Meant for everyone). Arraez needs to play. Rooker not only needs to play, he's done nothing in his milb career or SSS at the ML level to indicate he can't play or doesn't deserve a chance. What is wrong...assuming for a moment that Khirilloff begins next season at St Paul...with letting AK "ramp up" and let others get their shot?

For example, for a moment, think about a pro or college football team that has an incumbent WR/RB/QB but brought in a 5* recruit or top draft choice at the same position. There is an investment in the talent on hand. Do you just hand the job to the new guy whether he is ready or not? No. He earns the spot, either immediately or soon, or eventually.

We just need to drop the whole service time issue and examine putting the best team on the field. That may mean Kirilloff being the #1 guy from day one. It could also mean, especially considering how crazy and weird 2020 was, that letting Arraez and Rooker get an opportunity to begin the season is the smart move.

I'm of the hope Kirilloff is READY and has a great ST and forces the issue and rakes from day ONE and contends with Jeffers for ROY. (Interesting nobody has ever spoken about Jeffers being held back for service time. Why? Oh yeah, lack of depth and options) Service time may be a result, but it doesn't have to be a mitigating factor if we just approach the situation logically and ignore some rampant conspiracy that the Twins have no additional OF depth/options and are just playing a "potential" numbers game.
  • LA VIkes Fan, Dman and In My La-Z-boy like this
"Nice catch Hayes...don't ever f*****g do it again."

--Lou Brown


#23 strumdatjaguar

strumdatjaguar

    Wichita Wind Surge

  • Member
  • 527 posts

Posted 23 February 2021 - 08:55 PM

Are you really itching to see more games with Kirilloff as the epidemic still limits access to Target Field in April? Me neither. Get the extra year.

#24 tony&rodney

tony&rodney

    Cedar Rapids Kernels

  • Member
  • 374 posts

Posted 23 February 2021 - 09:28 PM

Does anyone believe that service time, as it currently exists, will survive the next cba?

The Twins need to field their best team, whatever that looks like, from Day 1. Rosario was cut loose to apportion funds elsewhere and open a spot for competition amongst a slew of solid players. May the best player or platoon system prevail.

  • segagenesisgenius and In My La-Z-boy like this

#25 terrydactyls1947

terrydactyls1947

    Wichita Wind Surge

  • Member
  • 772 posts
  • LocationCumberland Center, Maine

Posted 23 February 2021 - 09:49 PM

The New York Giants kept Willie Mays in AAA until May in 1951. He was hitting well over .400 by the t,one they brought him up. I doubt that service time was an issue back then. I just think they wanted him to get his legs under him before he started his MLB career.

#26 LylesCrocodiles

LylesCrocodiles

    Ft Myers Mighty Mussels

  • Member
  • 59 posts

Posted 23 February 2021 - 10:42 PM

It appears Kirilloff is ready. Say they do have him with the big club for opening day. And he struggles a bit. Would it be OK to send him to AAA to manipulate service time?

I’m OK with the front office making a decision on Kirillofff either way. But let’s see how this plays out in spring training. There are a lot of different possible outcomes, but if this organization thinks he’s ready for the majors he should be there on opening day. Finding a way to win as many games possible should be the only goal.

#27 Nine of twelve

Nine of twelve

    Minnesota Twins

  • Member
  • 3,536 posts
  • LocationEarth, for the time being

Posted 24 February 2021 - 06:24 AM

 

Does anyone believe that service time, as it currently exists, will survive the next cba?

 

Someone else alluded to the matter of whether there will be any grandfathering regarding any speculated changes in the service time provisions of the next CBA. The FO seems smart enough to take this into account. In any case it seems apparent that their philosophy is to do what they think is best for the franchise as a whole, and I expect they will make decisions on Kirilloff and the rest of the roster based on that.


#28 bighat

bighat

    Sombrero Grande

  • Member
  • 3,818 posts
  • LocationGuatemala

Posted 24 February 2021 - 06:41 AM

 

No question.

It’s just silly for anyone to say he’s ready to start a playoff game against the Astros, but he’s not ready to play opening day.

.........

What if you miss home field advantage, lose the division, or even miss the playoffs by one game and he would’ve made the difference, since we’re dealing in hypotheticals?

Darius, you nailed it. Couldn't have said it better.

 

Add in that we let Rosario go - it's not like there's an established 30 HR 100+ RBI guy currently playing in RF. We're talking Cave/Arraez here.

  • segagenesisgenius likes this

#29 chpettit19

chpettit19

    Ft Myers Mighty Mussels

  • Member
  • 243 posts

Posted 24 February 2021 - 08:16 AM

A lot of mention of Kirilloff starting a playoff game proving he should be the opening day LFer. Seem to be completely ignoring the fact that there were multiple injuries on that team that lead to him getting the call. If Buxton were healthy Kirilloff never comes over from St Paul. If Rooker is healthy, and still hitting, Kirilloff never comes over from St Paul. People make it sound like Kirilloff got the start over a number of current players and thus the team thought he was better. He started over Cave so you can make that argument there, but he didn't start over Buxton, Rooker, or Arraez. Buxton doesn't matter in this conversation, but Rooker and Arraez do. Shoot, even Marwan would've started over him if Donaldson was healthy.

 

As for the new CBA changing service time rules (I really hope it does), there is no way the league gives them a change in those rules but doesn't demand current players be grandfathered in. They aren't simply going to give up those cost controlled years. In fact, agents of big time prospects who are probably a year or 2 away are probably crossing their fingers they don't get called up this year so they aren't stuck in the old system. 

 

As fans we always want the best players we can get on our team for every game every year. As players and coaches they are always looking to win as many games as possible every year, but even Rocco looks to the future somewhat by giving guys as much rest as he does. But as FO personnel they need to keep an eye on the future. If you think a prospect is a utility guy/backup you call them up when you need them with no concern to service time. If you think they're a league average everyday guy you call them up without much concern to service time. If you think they're a top 100 MLB player with superstar upside that can hit in the heart of a championship order you have to be concerned with service time. Even the Dodgers and Yankees play these games. It's annoying, and as fans we shouldn't like it. But it's smart and the way good teams run their organizations.

  • Major League Ready and DocBauer like this

#30 In My La-Z-boy

In My La-Z-boy

    Ft Myers Mighty Mussels

  • Member
  • 191 posts

Posted 24 February 2021 - 08:41 AM

 

Does anyone believe that service time, as it currently exists, will survive the next cba?

The Twins need to field their best team, whatever that looks like, from Day 1. Rosario was cut loose to apportion funds elsewhere and open a spot for competition amongst a slew of solid players. May the best player or platoon system prevail.

This is the proper way to look at this, and I am guessing this is how it plays out. I am hoping we see the Arraez bat from 2019 in spring training and he starts day 1 in LF and bats leadoff. Within a month he will be playing all over the field with days off and injuries, and at that time we can deem Kirilloff or Rooker the everyday LF'er.

  • LA VIkes Fan likes this

#31 Trov

Trov

    Wichita Wind Surge

  • Member
  • 770 posts

Posted 24 February 2021 - 09:10 AM

I have been calling for no manipulation all winter.Glad you got data to help back that up.I was more on the optics side of why making clear manipulation of players is bad for CBA.Already the game has shifted as this article points out to younger players and 29 plus guys not getting the long term deals they used to.  

 

This has upset the players that used to get the 7 year deals at age 29 to 31.Now they are getting 2 year deals for much less money overall.It used to be if you can be good until your FA year you could cash in, and the mega stars would sign long term deals with opt outs at age 30, expecting another mega deal.Well FO rules changed learning there was a lot of bad money in those contracts and they have basically stopped.

 

Throw in the manipulation of a year of service time and you get really upset players because you take one year of big money from them.Work stoppage will happen, and if teams are still manipulating service time it will just make players even more upset.If Kirilloff hits well in ST he needs to break with team to have the best lineup out there all season.Lets worry about 6 years from now, 6 years from now. 


#32 Shaitan

Shaitan

    St Paul Saints

  • Member
  • 1,683 posts

Posted 24 February 2021 - 09:34 AM

 

Darius, you nailed it. Couldn't have said it better.

 

Add in that we let Rosario go - it's not like there's an established 30 HR 100+ RBI guy currently playing in RF. We're talking Cave/Arraez here.

 

While I've made the same "he started in the playoffs means they think he's ready" argument, sadly I don't even buy it myself.

 

I think he started in the playoffs because they were desperate and hoped to catch lightning in a bottle. And it depresses me. It's very off-topic, but I want the team to play playoff baseball the same way they play in the season. Don't get cute and overthink every single decision. Do what has worked.

 

I think starting Kirilloff was along the same lines as using all 3 catchers in game 1 and pulling Maeda so early: making moves for the sake of making moves.


#33 jkcarew

jkcarew

    St Paul Saints

  • Member
  • 1,935 posts

Posted 24 February 2021 - 11:19 AM

I would like Kirilloff to be the opening day left fielder. But I understand why that might not happen from a business standpoint. I have no issues with the FO taking advantage of rule that was collectively bargained with the players. Still, it’s probably fair to say there is risk with either side of that decision for the FO.


#34 nicksaviking

nicksaviking

    Billy G.O.A.T

  • Moderator
  • 16,170 posts

Posted 24 February 2021 - 01:49 PM

I might get behind Kirilloff if Rooker wasn't also an option. Rooker is more advanced, has been just as impressive in the minors and most importantly bats right handed. Kirilloff has the pedigree and the prospect rankings on his side, but I think Rooker is the right option at the moment. 

 

 

  • Twins33 likes this

#35 Channing1964

Channing1964

    Wichita Wind Surge

  • Member
  • 810 posts
  • LocationPhoenix,Az

Posted 24 February 2021 - 08:09 PM

I can make it brutally simple for everybody. If he beats out Cave, Larnach, Rooker, and Celestino then pencil him in at lf batting 6th and extend his ass until 2027. If not, send him down and tell him what to keep working on.

#36 Twins33

Twins33

    Junior Member

  • Member
  • 568 posts

Posted Yesterday, 12:52 PM

 

I might get behind Kirilloff if Rooker wasn't also an option. Rooker is more advanced, has been just as impressive in the minors and most importantly bats right handed. Kirilloff has the pedigree and the prospect rankings on his side, but I think Rooker is the right option at the moment. 

These are my thoughts too and I’m glad I wasn’t the only one thinking it. Rooker has absolutely nothing to prove in the minors anymore. It is my belief that Kirilloff wouldn’t have been called up if Rooker never got injured. He needs to be with the Twins or traded because his bat is ready and he’s already 26. 
 

I really like Kirilloff, he’s my number one prospect but I think he could use more time in the minors. I don’t think he needs a whole year down there but half a year wouldn’t be too bad. He “struggled” a bit a few years ago because of a wrist injury and I’d like to see him go back to killing it.

 

And this has nothing to do with service time for me. I would pick Rooker over Kirilloff right now service time or not. That extra year is just a bonus on top. Unless Rooker looks completely clueless in ST, he deserves the job. Kirilloff can be very close by in St Paul if injury strikes or someone is playing bad. 

  • Major League Ready likes this