Jump to content

Providing independent coverage of the Minnesota Twins.
Subscribe to Twins Daily Email
Photo

Article: Big Year for the Manager

  • Please log in to reply
82 replies to this topic

#21 Badsmerf

Badsmerf

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 2,799 posts

Posted 21 February 2013 - 10:24 AM

Anybody remember Bill Smith. Trading away Bartlett and JJ Hardy from an organization that can't develop middle infielders.

You think Gardy had no say in these moves? Gardy doesn't make all the decisions, but he does have a say in things like this.
Do or do not. There is no try.

#22 birdwatcher

birdwatcher

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 3,446 posts

Posted 21 February 2013 - 10:49 AM

Over the years, on balance, Gardy has been regarded by the industry as being a very good manager. Does he have weaknesses? Absolutely! And some notable strengths, with clubhouse management and bullpen management most often cited.

My own opinion is that he's gotten burnt out a bit. I think he had a lousy year in 2012, and unless he bounces back in 2013, I'm going to welcome a change.

#23 JB_Iowa

JB_Iowa

    Let's Keep Winning!

  • Members
  • 5,986 posts
  • LocationNorthwest Iowa

Posted 21 February 2013 - 11:06 AM

I'm in the he's "stale" camp -- and it actually doesn't have a lot to do with Gardenhire himself. I believe (and believed this long before Gardenhire was hired) that most leaders have a "shelf life" of about 7-10 years, maybe a little longer. There is a reason for term limits in politics. There is a reason that the Methodist Church used to rotate ministers about every 7 years. I've seen it happen with school superintendents, hospital administrators and a number of other "leadership" positions. After a period of time, they seem to lose their effectiveness. It isn't that they are doing anything "wrong". It just becomes time for a new voice, new energy and a different leader. Sure there are exceptions but given the performance of this team the last 2 years, a leadership -- and culture -- change is needed.

#24 Seth Stohs

Seth Stohs

    Owner

  • Administrators
  • 15,806 posts

Posted 21 February 2013 - 11:08 AM

I think the time is right on Gardy because I think this team will be largely rebuilt from the ground up over the next few years. That is a good time to bring in a new leader, to grow with the new team.


I think that is a very valid reason, but again, who is brought in (or in the Twins case, brought up?)? Why? Is it Molitor, who has no record of success as a coach and no managerial success at any level? (worked with Robin Ventura, who hadn't even coached) Is it someone like Jake Mauer who all of the young players respect and admire? Is it someone like Mientkiewicz? Would they dare hire Jeff Smith (who the players can't stand)? Gene Glynn is known as a great talent evaluator, so does he serve the organization better managing in Rochester, or up in the big leagues? If winning is what people want to evaluate managers by, why not hire Ray Smith from Elizabethton?

#25 ThePuck

ThePuck

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 3,232 posts

Posted 21 February 2013 - 11:11 AM

I think that is a very valid reason, but again, who is brought in (or in the Twins case, brought up?)? Why? Is it Molitor, who has no record of success as a coach and no managerial success at any level? (worked with Robin Ventura, who hadn't even coached) Is it someone like Jake Mauer who all of the young players respect and admire? Is it someone like Mientkiewicz? Would they dare hire Jeff Smith (who the players can't stand)? Gene Glynn is known as a great talent evaluator, so does he serve the organization better managing in Rochester, or up in the big leagues? If winning is what people want to evaluate managers by, why not hire Ray Smith from Elizabethton?


IMO, best choice would be Ryne Sandberg.

#26 JB_Iowa

JB_Iowa

    Let's Keep Winning!

  • Members
  • 5,986 posts
  • LocationNorthwest Iowa

Posted 21 February 2013 - 11:12 AM

I think that is a very valid reason, but again, who is brought in (or in the Twins case, brought up?)? Why? Is it Molitor, who has no record of success as a coach and no managerial success at any level? (worked with Robin Ventura, who hadn't even coached) Is it someone like Jake Mauer who all of the young players respect and admire? Is it someone like Mientkiewicz? Would they dare hire Jeff Smith (who the players can't stand)? Gene Glynn is known as a great talent evaluator, so does he serve the organization better managing in Rochester, or up in the big leagues? If winning is what people want to evaluate managers by, why not hire Ray Smith from Elizabethton?

And why not consider hiring someone from OUTSIDE the organization? Culture change.

#27 Seth Stohs

Seth Stohs

    Owner

  • Administrators
  • 15,806 posts

Posted 21 February 2013 - 11:13 AM

I'm in the he's "stale" camp -- and it actually doesn't have a lot to do with Gardenhire himself. I believe (and believed this long before Gardenhire was hired) that most leaders have a "shelf life" of about 7-10 years, maybe a little longer. There is a reason for term limits in politics. There is a reason that the Methodist Church used to rotate ministers about every 7 years. I've seen it happen with school superintendents, hospital administrators and a number of other "leadership" positions. After a period of time, they seem to lose their effectiveness. It isn't that they are doing anything "wrong". It just becomes time for a new voice, new energy and a different leader. Sure there are exceptions but given the performance of this team the last 2 years, a leadership -- and culture -- change is needed.


Again, this is another good argument, but there are always counter-examples to this. Dean Smith at UNC, Coach K at Duke. Tony LaRussa in St. Louis. Joe Torre with the Yankees. Bruce Bochy with the Giants. In general though, I think this is a fair argument too. I just think that if you have a young team, why would they be "tuning out" the manager? They're trying to make their way in the big leagues. They certainly are going to listen to the manager and his coaching staff.

#28 Seth Stohs

Seth Stohs

    Owner

  • Administrators
  • 15,806 posts

Posted 21 February 2013 - 11:15 AM

And why not consider hiring someone from OUTSIDE the organization? Culture change.


The Cubs didn't even want to hire him as their manager... although he's been an OK manager in the minors and certainly has the HOF status that so many seem to think is important.

I also get the "go outside the organization" mentality, and I get that... but that isn't going to change the culture. Only way the culture changes is if everyone from Terry Ryan to Mike Radcliff to the manager to the minor league staffs get changed, which I know many reading think should happen, but it won't. That's also not the topic of this forum.

#29 ThePuck

ThePuck

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 3,232 posts

Posted 21 February 2013 - 11:17 AM

The Cubs didn't even want to hire him as their manager... although he's been an OK manager in the minors and certainly has the HOF status that so many seem to think is important.

I also get the "go outside the organization" mentality, and I get that... but that isn't going to change the culture. Only way the culture changes is if everyone from Terry Ryan to Mike Radcliff to the manager to the minor league staffs get changed, which I know many reading think should happen, but it won't. That's also not the topic of this forum.


He's been a great minor league manager and the Phillies are grooming him now....we should offer him the job before they promote him

#30 twinsnorth49

twinsnorth49

    Twins Win!!

  • Twins Mods
  • 10,539 posts

Posted 21 February 2013 - 11:18 AM

Again, this is another good argument, but there are always counter-examples to this. Dean Smith at UNC, Coach K at Duke. Tony LaRussa in St. Louis. Joe Torre with the Yankees. Bruce Bochy with the Giants. In general though, I think this is a fair argument too. I just think that if you have a young team, why would they be "tuning out" the manager? They're trying to make their way in the big leagues. They certainly are going to listen to the manager and his coaching staff.


I agree with this 100%, with what it takes to make the majors and considering the hierarchical structure at the major league level, I would think as a young player you do everything to get your manager to love you, not tune him out, that's pretty counterproductive, not to mention a pretty big gamble that he'll be gone before you are.

#31 Seth Stohs

Seth Stohs

    Owner

  • Administrators
  • 15,806 posts

Posted 21 February 2013 - 11:40 AM

He's been a great minor league manager and the Phillies are grooming him now....we should offer him the job before they promote him


Right, but he's not going to leave the Phillies organization knowing the Manuel isn't going to be there very long.

#32 ThePuck

ThePuck

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 3,232 posts

Posted 21 February 2013 - 11:42 AM

Right, but he's not going to leave the Phillies organization knowing the Manuel isn't going to be there very long.


He's chomping at the bit to be a Major League manager....unless Manuel is stepping down after this season, and I've heard nothing to say he would be, we should go after him.

#33 Boom Boom

Boom Boom

    Cham-Peen of the World

  • Members
  • 1,758 posts

Posted 21 February 2013 - 11:47 AM

I think that is a very valid reason, but again, who is brought in (or in the Twins case, brought up?)? Why? Is it Molitor, who has no record of success as a coach and no managerial success at any level? (worked with Robin Ventura, who hadn't even coached) Is it someone like Jake Mauer who all of the young players respect and admire? Is it someone like Mientkiewicz? Would they dare hire Jeff Smith (who the players can't stand)? Gene Glynn is known as a great talent evaluator, so does he serve the organization better managing in Rochester, or up in the big leagues? If winning is what people want to evaluate managers by, why not hire Ray Smith from Elizabethton?


This is the old "Who are you going to get that's better?" argument.

When Ron Gardenhire was handed the reins as manager, he didn't have a very impressive managerial track record either (0-0, I believe). Same as those other guys you mention. The Twins could try to bring in Bobby Cox but I don't think he'll want to come out of retirement.

#34 FrodaddyG

FrodaddyG

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 536 posts

Posted 21 February 2013 - 11:47 AM

Dean Smith at UNC, Coach K at Duke. Tony LaRussa in St. Louis. Joe Torre with the Yankees. Bruce Bochy with the Giants.

Any examples of long-tenured guys who didn't win championships at any point in those runs?

#35 twinsnorth49

twinsnorth49

    Twins Win!!

  • Twins Mods
  • 10,539 posts

Posted 21 February 2013 - 12:14 PM

Any examples of long-tenured guys who didn't win championships at any point in those runs?


Jerry Sloan, Lindy Ruff, Andy Reid, Bo Schembechler, Chuck Knox, Dan Reeves, Marv Levy, .......some guy with the last name Grant.

#36 FrodaddyG

FrodaddyG

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 536 posts

Posted 21 February 2013 - 12:19 PM

Jerry Sloan, Lindy Ruff, Andy Reid, Bo Schembechler, Chuck Knox, Dan Reeves, Marv Levy, .......some guy with the last name Grant.

And how many of them claimed ONE postseason series or game in the win column?

#37 TCBurgerGuy

TCBurgerGuy

    Junior Member

  • Members
  • 16 posts

Posted 21 February 2013 - 12:41 PM

Good points made by all on both sides of the argument. I think that there is one key factor missing from all of your points though; the Twins do not make non-player moves in-season. If Gardy is going to go, it will be at the end of the season.

MWW brought up that this may be a good time to start fresh, and I agree, but it won't be before November.

#38 twinsnorth49

twinsnorth49

    Twins Win!!

  • Twins Mods
  • 10,539 posts

Posted 21 February 2013 - 01:31 PM

And how many of them claimed ONE postseason series or game in the win column?


That wasn't your question but feel free to keep moving the target.The point was there are plenty of coaches/managers who have held tenure without having the good fortune of finding the Holy Grail, reason being they were quality people and by all other measures successful. The same could be said for many players.

For the record I'm not saying Gardy should stay, change inevitably happens, as it should. If one of the main arguements for firing him is that he has never delivered a championship, then I say that's pretty short sighted and too convenient.

#39 JB_Iowa

JB_Iowa

    Let's Keep Winning!

  • Members
  • 5,986 posts
  • LocationNorthwest Iowa

Posted 21 February 2013 - 02:07 PM

Well, I went back and looked at the records of many of the long term coaches named in twinsnorth49's post. 2 things jumped out at me: 1. most (if not all) did not have the same mid to late-career abysmal failure that Gardenhire has had the last 2 years (they were some downward trends but nothing like the win-loss % Gardenhire has had); and 2. Many of them did not have significantly more than Gardenhire's current 11 seasons with one team. And when they did have several consecutive down seasons, it looks like many of them either resigned or were fired.

#40 jimbo92107

jimbo92107

    SeƱor Member

  • Members
  • 3,724 posts
  • LocationSan Diego

Posted 21 February 2013 - 02:27 PM

Someone would have to study that and even determine what that means... their 'little' guys haven't bunted well. They don't always run the bases real well. Defense has been down the last several years, but that's certainly the players... So, I dont know if it's true or not.


That's another thing. When people talk about "doing the little things well," it sounds like they think that if we bunt well enough, field well enough and don't walk anybody, we'll be able to beat the Yankees.

Problem is, the Yankees do the big things well. They hire pitchers that mow down your bunters. They hire hitters that bash baseballs past your contact pitchers and your diligent fielders. And of course, their fielders do most of the "little things" well, too.

Maybe our problem is we just hear what we want or expect to hear from our middle market team. Truth is, if you want to win pennants and championships, you need a team with a lot of guys that can do the little things well, plus do the big things well. If you're wondering why the Twins installed Trevor Plouffe at 3B and now are trying to install Brian Dozier at 2B rather than Jaime Carroll, it's because the young guys hopefully can learn "little things" like consistent fielding at the same time they drive baseballs farther than Carroll ever will.

I just can't see blaming Gardenhire for managing a team that's transitioning from an indoor small-ball club to an outdoor club in a bigger park, while at the same time trying to find a winning roster that keeps changing, too. It's a very stressful task, and frankly my biggest concern is if Gardenhire still has the physical endurance to put up with it.