Jump to content

Providing independent coverage of the Minnesota Twins.
The same great Twins Daily coverage, now for the Vikings.

The Store


Photo

Zulgad: Terry Ryan is Good News for Ron Gardenhire

  • Please log in to reply
65 replies to this topic

#1 John Bonnes

John Bonnes

    Owner

  • Administrators
  • 4,957 posts

Posted 19 February 2013 - 06:29 PM

Judd Zulgad writes about how Ron Gardenhire has at least one believer in the organization. And it's an important one: his boss.

While Gardenhire will be under pressure to turn things around in 2013, he also knows that Ryan believes in him and, maybe even more importantly, appears to have ultimate say on baseball matters within the Twins' organization.


It will be interesting this season to see how Gardenhire ends up. With Terry Ryan at the helm, I don't think Gardy will be judged bases on wins and losses. He might get fired based on other things. But it isn't going to be just because of a 90-loss season. Ryan knows the talent level on this team. And he knows he put Gardy in a tough situation by building for the future instead of the present.

And that's the way it should be, IMHO.

http://www.1500espn....ardenhire021813

#2 FrodaddyG

FrodaddyG

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 536 posts

Posted 19 February 2013 - 06:48 PM

But it isn't going to be just because of a 90-loss season.

How about 3 of them?

#3 Kwak

Kwak

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 1,296 posts

Posted 19 February 2013 - 08:41 PM

Gardenhire is a Ryan disciple--or he would never have been manager in the first place--his job is safe.

#4 Top Gun

Top Gun

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 1,253 posts

Posted 19 February 2013 - 08:58 PM

When the sheet hits the fan someone has to take the fall.

#5 John Bonnes

John Bonnes

    Owner

  • Administrators
  • 4,957 posts

Posted 19 February 2013 - 10:20 PM

When the sheet hits the fan someone has to take the fall.


I don't think Ryan works like that.

I still think the most likely way Gardenhire is fired is if Ryan steps down. And I think Ryan has done enough for future years to weather this one.

#6 johnnydakota

johnnydakota

    Banned

  • Banned
  • 1,498 posts

Posted 19 February 2013 - 10:37 PM

How about 3 of them?


totally agreeing 3 of them , yeah thats the ticket fire all 3 of them ST.Pete,Ryan and Gardy

#7 johnnydakota

johnnydakota

    Banned

  • Banned
  • 1,498 posts

Posted 19 February 2013 - 10:43 PM

I don't think Ryan works like that.

I still think the most likely way Gardenhire is fired is if Ryan steps down. And I think Ryan has done enough for future years to weather this one.

What has he done John?
He traded 2 mlb starters for a sore armed starter, a double A struggler and a single A pitcher?
Or are you referring to his payroll slashing moves?While the moves were decent I believe other generals could have done as well or better.
If nothing else he should have gotten Washington to throw in Lannon , a player they were going to non tender any way....

#8 bl

bl

    Junior Member

  • Members
  • 14 posts

Posted 19 February 2013 - 11:04 PM

It's an interesting situation. Figure that Gardy's primary goal is maximizing wins this season while Ryan needs to play a longer game.

So what happens if, say, Hicks looks awesome in spring training and Gardy wants to start him in CF April 1, but Ryan wants to hold him in AAA for service time reasons? I suppose this stuff happens all the time and they probably have a decent working relationship/arbitration process, so it's not like I'm expecting him to him to punch in Ryan's door. I'm just sure Gardy's going to be real pissed if he doesn't get all the tools he wants (see also: starting rotation) and yet ends up without a job, and I wouldn't blame him.

I don't think that managers make much of a difference, but I do feel a twinge of pity for a guy who saw us through so many pretty awesome years.

#9 nicksaviking

nicksaviking

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 3,714 posts

Posted 19 February 2013 - 11:09 PM

I don't think Ryan works like that.

I still think the most likely way Gardenhire is fired is if Ryan steps down. And I think Ryan has done enough for future years to weather this one.


You think Ryan would take the bullet for Gardy? I'm not so sure. I'm sure Ryan would rationalize it thusly: If I take the hit and spare Gardy, they'll replace me and my replacement will then want to get a new manager anyway. No reason for us both to go down with the ship.

#10 Oldgoat_MN

Oldgoat_MN

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 673 posts

Posted 19 February 2013 - 11:09 PM

I appreciate loyalty, but I don't know if it is really the same in the sports business.
Sometimes even good managers/head coaches have to go to make a statement to the team.
You can't fire ALL the players.

#11 nicksaviking

nicksaviking

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 3,714 posts

Posted 19 February 2013 - 11:14 PM

I appreciate loyalty, but I don't know if it is really the same in the sports business.
Sometimes even good managers/head coaches have to go to make a statement to the team.
You can't fire ALL the players.


No but you can fire the guys who made the decisions to acquire those inadaquate players instead.

#12 Kwak

Kwak

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 1,296 posts

Posted 19 February 2013 - 11:28 PM

This "arrangement" is safe for three more seasons at a minimum. The Payroll is falling, the minor leagues are building, and time was granted to turn the ship around. These two will get three more years minimum for the "Prospects" to reach the Twins and for the rotation to settle-in-place. If the ownership wanted immediate action--a whole new Front Office would have been appointed and lots of money spent on players. Since that didn't happen it is safe to assume the "slow and easy course" (with the required slash/burn or payroll) will be used--at least three years and maybe four.

#13 Mark_RM

Mark_RM

    Junior Member

  • Members
  • 29 posts

Posted 20 February 2013 - 12:11 AM

I don't think Ryan works like that.

I still think the most likely way Gardenhire is fired is if Ryan steps down. And I think Ryan has done enough for future years to weather this one.

I agree that as long as TR stays, Gardenhire probably will too. If TR thinks that its OK to have a manager that values bunting ability in a #2 hitter, another loosing season isn't going to change his mind.

#14 glunn

glunn

    Head Moderator

  • Twins Mods
  • 5,278 posts
  • LocationBeverly Hills, CA

Posted 20 February 2013 - 02:06 AM

I would not be surprised if Gardenhire is OK with leaving or taking a different role, like Kelly did. Three horrible seasons in a row must be painful for him, and he might even be glad to get a fresh start elsewhere. It seems noteworthy that his contract expires at the end of this year. And sometimes it just makes sense to get a new manager.

#15 John Bonnes

John Bonnes

    Owner

  • Administrators
  • 4,957 posts

Posted 20 February 2013 - 07:41 AM

I would not be surprised if Gardenhire is OK with leaving or taking a different role, like Kelly did. Three horrible seasons in a row must be painful for him, and he might even be glad to get a fresh start elsewhere. It seems noteworthy that his contract expires at the end of this year. And sometimes it just makes sense to get a new manager.


It could play out that way. I feel like Gardy is way too competitive and wants to see this thing through. You'll recall that TK, when he stepped down, waited until he got through the dark times. 2001 was when things came together, though they finished poorly.

#16 Brock Beauchamp

Brock Beauchamp

    Owner

  • Administrators
  • 8,798 posts

Posted 20 February 2013 - 07:50 AM

I would not be surprised if Gardenhire is OK with leaving or taking a different role, like Kelly did. Three horrible seasons in a row must be painful for him, and he might even be glad to get a fresh start elsewhere. It seems noteworthy that his contract expires at the end of this year. And sometimes it just makes sense to get a new manager.


I've suspected it could play out this way. After all those wins, I doubt Gardy is crazy about the idea of losing another 90 games in 2013 but unless something goes horribly wrong this season, I don't think he'll be fired.

On the other hand, I think anything over 75 wins almost guarantees he stays on and gets an extension. If there is hope for 2014 and beyond, I can see Gardenhire wading through one or two more losing seasons with the payoff of seeing another contender emerge mid-decade.

And really, I'm okay with that. Gardenhire drives me nuts at times but every baseball manager not named Joe Maddon drives me nuts at times. It's the nature of the job and in the end, I think Gardenhire's reported ability to run a tight clubhouse is just as important as his (IMO) failures in game management.

Baseball managers just don't matter that much unless they're exceptional (see Maddon, Joe).

#17 nicksaviking

nicksaviking

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 3,714 posts

Posted 20 February 2013 - 10:34 AM

How is this going to play out though if this is another disaster season? Gardenhire's contract is up after 2013, are they really going to give him a two or three year deal after three consecutive 90 loss seasons? I don't know that they'd want to make that kind of statement to the fans. The other option is continually giving him one year deals, but that is a rarity in the MLB, neither the manager or the team would want a lame duck status rolling over annually for their manager.

#18 LoganJones

LoganJones

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 172 posts

Posted 20 February 2013 - 10:48 AM

.. but every baseball manager not named Joe Maddon drives me nuts at times. It's the nature of the job and in the end, I think Gardenhire's reported ability to run a tight clubhouse is just as important as his (IMO) failures in game management.
Baseball managers just don't matter that much unless they're exceptional (see Maddon, Joe).


I bet if you really followed the Rays with the same passion you followed the Twins, Maddon would drive you just as nuts. I agree he's the best of the bunch, by the way. But hop over to a Rays board and you find just as many 'Maddon is the reason we don't win it all' posts.

#19 ThePuck

ThePuck

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 3,232 posts

Posted 20 February 2013 - 10:53 AM

Gardenhire's contract is up after 2013, are they really going to give him a two or three year deal after three consecutive 90 loss seasons? I don't know that they'd want to make that kind of statement to the fans.


Well, no Twins team ever lost as many games in back to back seasons as the Twins have done the last two seasons...and no MLB manager has ever led his team to more consecutive playoff losses either...yet he's still with the team. I'm not sure they worry too much about what they're saying to the fans by keeping him.

#20 Brock Beauchamp

Brock Beauchamp

    Owner

  • Administrators
  • 8,798 posts

Posted 20 February 2013 - 11:01 AM

I bet if you really followed the Rays with the same passion you followed the Twins, Maddon would drive you just as nuts. I agree he's the best of the bunch, by the way. But hop over to a Rays board and you find just as many 'Maddon is the reason we don't win it all' posts.


I doubt it. I get annoyed when the manager doesn't do EXACTLY as I expect but if I can see the reasoning behind his actions 90% of the time or better, I generally let it slide. In the case of Maddon, I'm even willing to go farther and give him the benefit of the doubt because he does so many things right that I'd second-guess if I was missing the reasoning behind a move.

With Gardy, not so much. The guy is predictable and some of his in-game habits are... not bright and rather indefensible. On the other hand, the guy seems to be a great clubhouse manager and in baseball, I think that counts for nearly as much as in-game management skills (maybe more on some teams). All in all, I think Ron is a pretty good manager because of baseball's unique position of being a 162 game season of individual performances. In baseball, a lot of the time the best thing the manager can do is keep everyone pointed in the correct direction and just get the hell out of their way.

#21 Willihammer

Willihammer

    ice cream correspondent

  • Members
  • 2,988 posts
  • LocationSaint Paul

Posted 20 February 2013 - 11:02 AM

Shifts baby. Shifts.

#22 Kwak

Kwak

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 1,296 posts

Posted 20 February 2013 - 11:53 AM

Gardenhire has been around too long (and lauded in-house too much) to be dismissed without a credible backstory in place to use as a reason. Three 90+ loss-seasons? '11 was blamed on injuries, and '12 was blamed on poor starting pitching--neither of which can be directly traced to the field manager's fault. If 2013 is yet another 90+ loss season some reason must be used to hang this around Gardenhire's neck. Can't use starting pitching (again)--that one would be on the Front Office. Injuries? Could happen, but can Gardenhire be blamed for that? No.

Consider when Boston axed Francona: he was blamed for losing control of the team and the end-result was a September collapse that left Boston out of the playoffs. I think that might have been used on TK but to use it this year? Well the Twins would first have to seriously contend, make a significant mid-year addition, and then collapse at the end for that. Buy a Powerball ticket instead, the probabilities are about the same but the payoff is much higher. If Gardenhire were to be sacked, a medical reason would likely be cited. First, it's happened before, second, well to be kind Gardy isn't a shining example of fitness, and third it can be surmised that he has "had enough" of MLB managing anyway and doesn't need the money. I don't believe the Twins would axe Gardenhire and blame him for the losing seasons, they would use a different reason.

Edited by Kwak, 20 February 2013 - 11:56 AM.


#23 ThePuck

ThePuck

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 3,232 posts

Posted 20 February 2013 - 12:07 PM

Gardenhire has been around too long (and lauded in-house too much) to be dismissed without a credible backstory in place to use as a reason. Three 90+ loss-seasons? '11 was blamed on injuries, and '12 was blamed on poor starting pitching--neither of which can be directly traced to the field manager's fault.


But Liddle, White and a couple others got fired (or rather, their contracts were up and they weren't asked back) while Vavra and Ullger got reassigned. How is keeping Anderson but letting White go a proper response to poor pitching in 2012? On top of that, who do they all answer to?

#24 twinsnorth49

twinsnorth49

    Moderately Moderate

  • Twins Mods
  • 3,764 posts

Posted 20 February 2013 - 01:12 PM

There is a story in R.A. Dickey's book that is the perfect example of the two sides to Gardy.

He recounts a game he entered in relief with the game tied and the bases loaded and Gardy advises him not to throw his knuckleball because he's afraid Mauer might miss it, so he tells Dickey to stick with his fastball (86 mph) and his slider (doesn't throw one), Dickey looks at him as if he's from Mars, the knuckleball had been working for him and it's his out pitch. He walks the first batter on 9 fastballs and gives up another single on a fastball before he and Mauer say f**k it and retire two of the next three batters with knuckleballs. They lost the game.

The other half of the story is the amazement Dickey expresses when Gardy comes up to him after the game and apologized for doing that to him and takes the blame. His point is that although Gardy messed up tactically, he owned it and didn't back away from it, he states that this is partly what makes Gardy such a good manager of people and why his players like playing for him so much.

It's a pretty good insight into the "what the hell were you thinking" Gardy, but also into the one that is likely responsible for why he's been around so long.

#25 ThePuck

ThePuck

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 3,232 posts

Posted 20 February 2013 - 01:34 PM

There is a story in R.A. Dickey's book that is the perfect example of the two sides to Gardy.

He recounts a game he entered in relief with the game tied and the bases loaded and Gardy advises him not to throw his knuckleball because he's afraid Mauer might miss it, so he tells Dickey to stick with his fastball (86 mph) and his slider (doesn't throw one), Dickey looks at him as if he's from Mars, the knuckleball had been working for him and it's his out pitch. He walks the first batter on 9 fastballs and gives up another single on a fastball before he and Mauer say f**k it and retire two of the next three batters with knuckleballs. They lost the game.

The other half of the story is the amazement Dickey expresses when Gardy comes up to him after the game and apologized for doing that to him and takes the blame. His point is that although Gardy messed up tactically, he owned it and didn't back away from it, he states that this is partly what makes Gardy such a good manager of people and why his players like playing for him so much.

It's a pretty good insight into the "what the hell were you thinking" Gardy, but also into the one that is likely responsible for why he's been around so long.


Gardenhire, at the end of the 2011 season, also said in an interview that many of the players were getting defensive with him and didn't want to listen. He also said they had told him that they were tired of him 'throwing them under the bus'. He blew off the criticisms.

I used to have the link for this...I posted it a couple times on the Twins story boards. I'll try to find it. I believe it was 1500ESPN.

#26 Kwak

Kwak

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 1,296 posts

Posted 20 February 2013 - 01:49 PM

But Liddle, White and a couple others got fired (or rather, their contracts were up and they weren't asked back) while Vavra and Ullger got reassigned. How is keeping Anderson but letting White go a proper response to poor pitching in 2012? On top of that, who do they all answer to?


They're not Gardenhire. They were bit players and were the equivalent of LOOGYs and 3rd string-catchers in the scheme of things--not responsible for results and unknown to all but a few.

#27 johnnydakota

johnnydakota

    Banned

  • Banned
  • 1,498 posts

Posted 20 February 2013 - 01:59 PM

I agree that as long as TR stays, Gardenhire probably will too. If TR thinks that its OK to have a manager that values bunting ability in a #2 hitter, another loosing season isn't going to change his mind.


wish we had bunting ability in our #2 hitter last year and hope this year he will be an improvement in that department...
last years team we a joke when i came to laying down a bunt

#28 twinsnorth49

twinsnorth49

    Moderately Moderate

  • Twins Mods
  • 3,764 posts

Posted 20 February 2013 - 02:06 PM

Gardenhire, at the end of the 2011 season, also said in an interview that many of the players were getting defensive with him and didn't want to listen. He also said they had told him that they were tired of him 'throwing them under the bus'. He blew off the criticisms.

I used to have the link for this...I posted it a couple times on the Twins story boards. I'll try to find it. I believe it was 1500ESPN.


Sometimes you have to question who those players are and whether they matter or not. I don't recall Gardy singling out many guys and throwing them under the bus, some young players have issues with accountability and accepting some direction, Danny Valencia pops to mind.

Besides I was just relaying a perception of Gardy from a guy who has been in MLB clubhouses before, and played for a number of managers. I personally can't testify to any of it, none of us can really.

#29 johnnydakota

johnnydakota

    Banned

  • Banned
  • 1,498 posts

Posted 20 February 2013 - 02:10 PM

Sometimes you have to question who those players are and whether they matter or not. I don't recall Gardy singling out many guys and throwing them under the bus, some young players have issues with accountability and accepting some direction, Danny Valencia pops to mind.

Besides I was just relaying a perception of Gardy from a guy who has been in MLB clubhouses before, and played for a number of managers. I personally can't testify to any of it, none of us can really.


Do you listen to the post game show or interviews? If bus tossing was an olympic event Ron Gardenhire would be a gold medal winner..=)

#30 twinsnorth49

twinsnorth49

    Moderately Moderate

  • Twins Mods
  • 3,764 posts

Posted 20 February 2013 - 02:17 PM

Do you listen to the post game show or interviews? If bus tossing was an olympic event Ron Gardenhire would be a gold medal winner..=)


I listen to a lot of them, I guess it depends on your interpretation.There's a difference between throwing guys under the bus and just being honest, developing a good relationship doesn't mean you have to stick your head in the sand and treat everyone with kid gloves.