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More Proof that the Twins Just Don't Care or Aren't Trying Very Hard

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#1 jokin

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Posted 10 February 2013 - 04:11 PM

The Orioles acquired from the catcher-rich Rangers via waiver claim, Catcher, Luis Martinez, back in January and just put him through the waiver process again, which after he cleared, placed him at their AAA affiliate. Martinez is 27 and is said to have a plus arm. He has some 32 games of MLB experience and has hit terrifically at AAA (for a Catcher, albeit in the PCL) the last 2 seasons, with a .757 OPS. This compares to Butera's 2 year AAA OPS of .582.

The next 2 catchers on the Twins depth chart, Hermann and Pinto, only have experience at the AA level (less Hermann's Twins September cup of coffee) , with Pinto putting in just 12 games at New Britain in late 2012. Assuming Hermann catches full-time at Roc. and Pinto stays at New Britain, what is holding the Twins back from claiming guys like Martinez to add competition for playing time and depth to areas of weakness at little or no cost?

Edited by jokin, 10 February 2013 - 04:13 PM.


#2 Jim H

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Posted 10 February 2013 - 04:27 PM

I am not sure what you are saying here. In order to claim Martinez on waivers, the Twins would have to pass some one else thru waivers. I suppose they could do that with Butera or even Hermann but they would have to like Martinez more than either of those. Even if Martinez is a better hitter than Butera, that really isn't the prime consideration for a 3rd catcher. Letting someone else go to add Martinez to the 40 man would mean having 6 catchers on the 40 man roster, which seems like a lot.

#3 jokin

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Posted 10 February 2013 - 04:34 PM

I am not sure what you are saying here. In order to claim Martinez on waivers, the Twins would have to pass some one else thru waivers. I suppose they could do that with Butera or even Hermann but they would have to like Martinez more than either of those. Even if Martinez is a better hitter than Butera, that really isn't the prime consideration for a 3rd catcher. Letting someone else go to add Martinez to the 40 man would mean having 6 catchers on the 40 man roster, which seems like a lot.


I could repeat the list of the guys that wouldn't get claimed, but that has been done frequently in the past. Butera would be first on the list!

Having Martinez available as depth at Rochester would also help them to be in position to trade Doumit, if the right offer came along or readily replace him, if injured. It's clear that the Twins current catching situation is unusual and not sustainable longer-term.

As far as prime considerations for a 3rd catcher, try to find a "hitter" from anyone projected as bench players in 2013.

Edited by jokin, 10 February 2013 - 04:42 PM.


#4 roger

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Posted 10 February 2013 - 04:56 PM

My wife keeps telling me to not read posts like this as it isn't good for my blood pressure. Your title to this post however, is an insult to the men who have dedicated their lives to the Twins organization. As I have said previously to a few totally irresponsible posts...you owe the Twins organization an apology. I doubt that will ever happen, because shooting off ones mouth with whatever comes to mind appears to be to easy to publish in today's world.

#5 Jim H

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Posted 10 February 2013 - 05:10 PM

I tend to agree with Roger here. I was trying to find a nicer way to point out the flaws in your post. I doubt if Butera could be passed thru waivers without losing him. More to the point, why would the Twins do that when they clearly value his skills? Rather than spending time bashing the Twins for valuing a guy like Butera, maybe you could consider why the Twins and most other teams, really consider it so important to have a defensively skilled catcher as their backup.

#6 jokin

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Posted 10 February 2013 - 05:12 PM

I tend to agree with Roger here. I was trying to find a nicer way to point out the flaws in your post. I doubt if Butera could be passed thru waivers without losing him. More to the point, why would the Twins do that when they clearly value his skills? Rather than spending time bashing the Twins for valuing a guy like Butera, maybe you could consider why the Twins and most other teams, really consider it so important to have a defensively skilled catcher as their backup.


Because their thinking is flawed?

BTW, you did notice that Martinez cleared through on waivers to AAA, no reason that the Twins couldn't have acquired Martinez and passed him and another through during the process.

Edited by jokin, 10 February 2013 - 05:16 PM.


#7 jokin

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Posted 10 February 2013 - 05:30 PM

No dude your a ****ing troll and a jackass, I have no idea why they haven't banned you by now, you contribute nothing to the site in any sort of meaningful way. Because the Twins didn't sign a 27 year old AAAA catcher, suddenly they "don't care"? The Twins already have plenty of depth at Catcher in Mauer and Doumit. Yes, Butera sucks, we all know that, but we already owe him 1 million this year, now is not the time to cut him, and I am betting Luis Martinez is just not a very good catcher, if he was he certainly would have had more then 100 at bats to his name in the majors.

It's one thing to disagree with how the Twins run things, you are simply trolling and throwing **** against a wall.


You're wrong on your facts, as usual, but as always, you stay totally classy. Butera stands to make only 700K this year, not a million, at least yet.

You also ignored the scenario I proposed in improving the club. The Twins have Hermann coming up to AAA for the first time, I asked what would be wrong with adding an experienced, plus arm catcher, that also could add depth at the major league level. In addition, I noted that to improve the club long-term, the current catching situation will have to change. If Doumit were to become desirable as a DH/C option to a team, having this added depth would help significantly. I didn't say cut Butera, I said add competition, Butera will likely pass through waivers, and if he somehow miraculously didn't? Very small loss.

You ever-classily define this as fecal wall-throwing trolling.

#8 Thrylos

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Posted 10 February 2013 - 05:42 PM

what is holding the Twins back from claiming guys like Martinez to add competition for playing time and depth to areas of weakness at little or no cost?


The facts that:

a. they overvalue Butera and
b. they have five catchers on their 40-man roster, which is way too many.
c. they have already signed 27 yo AAAA C Eric Fryer and invited him to ST
d. they have also 27 yo Danny Lehmann in the organization (also invited to ST)

Edited by Thrylos, 10 February 2013 - 05:49 PM.

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#9 FrodaddyG

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Posted 10 February 2013 - 05:45 PM

You ever-classily define this as fecal wall-throwing trolling.

Sounds pretty on-the-ball.

#10 jokin

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Posted 10 February 2013 - 06:01 PM

The facts that:

a. they overvalue Butera and
b. they have five catchers on their 40-man roster, which is way too many.


I tend to think we're all agreed on Butera. Which leaves a huge blindspot that the Twins are unable to address- having virtually no bench player that can hit.

I agree they have too many catchers on the 40-man, but 3 of them do play other positions. They are using an unusual alignment that is likely to evolve. Mauer played the most games at C with only 72 games started at the position in 2012.

Hermann's progress this year at AAA is going to go a long way to determine what happens with the position.

The Orioles have a bona-fide All-Star at the position, yet they added another catcher.

Pinto is a question mark. He is still fairly young and would he pass through waivers? I can't answer that question

Regardless, if Doumit were to become a viable trading chip or sustain an injury, it would help in the interim time while waiting on Herrmann and Pinto to prove they're promotable, it's always better to have more depth, not less.

#11 Thrylos

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Posted 10 February 2013 - 06:07 PM

Pinto is a question mark. He is still fairly young and would he pass through waivers? I can't answer that question.


I think that from all the Cs not named Mauer in the Twins' organization, Pinto is the one who has the talent to be the next Twins' starting C when/if Mauer moves to another position in 2-3 seasons. He is a guy who is solid on both ends of the job. Hermann is fine too but projects more of a UT type, like a perfect person to have as a 3rd C if you want to carry 3 (because he can actually play decent OF). I'd love to see him get a chance to compete with Butera for a spot this spring.
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#12 darin617

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Posted 10 February 2013 - 06:08 PM

The Orioles acquired from the catcher-rich Rangers via waiver claim, Catcher, Luis Martinez, back in January and just put him through the waiver process again, which after he cleared, placed him at their AAA affiliate. Martinez is 27 and is said to have a plus arm. He has some 32 games of MLB experience and has hit terrifically at AAA (for a Catcher, albeit in the PCL) the last 2 seasons, with a .757 OPS. This compares to Butera's 2 year AAA OPS of .582.

The next 2 catchers on the Twins depth chart, Hermann and Pinto, only have experience at the AA level (less Hermann's Twins September cup of coffee) , with Pinto putting in just 12 games at New Britain in late 2012. Assuming Hermann catches full-time at Roc. and Pinto stays at New Britain, what is holding the Twins back from claiming guys like Martinez to add competition for playing time and depth to areas of weakness at little or no cost?


The Twins don't want to have to remove any "stars/prospects" from the 40 man roster so they could make a move like the one you mentioned.

#13 jokin

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Posted 10 February 2013 - 06:10 PM

The facts that:

a. they overvalue Butera and
b. they have five catchers on their 40-man roster, which is way too many.
c. they have already signed 27 yo AAAA C Eric Fryer and invited him to ST
d. they have also 27 yo Danny Lehmann in the organization (also invited to ST)


Eric Fryer .566 OPS in two years @ AAA

Danny Lehmann .632 OPS in 3 years @ AAA

#14 darin617

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Posted 10 February 2013 - 06:10 PM

Stupid thread.


I thought people were not to make comments like that without having them removed? I may be wrong but nobody forces anyone to read or comment on any threads.

#15 Thrylos

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Posted 10 February 2013 - 06:14 PM

Eric Fryer .566 OPS in two years @ AAA

Danny Lehmann .632 OPS in 3 years @ AAA


The points with those 2 in the list is that:

a. they already signed a FA catcher for AAA
b. they have a second back-up C in AAA (Lehmann), which, with Herrmann makes it 3 in AAA, so they have enough depth.

(same with AA: Pinto/Knudson/Rohlfing)

So they have no space for him... Really. They have 3+ Cs in every level practically.
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#16 SpiritofVodkaDave

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Posted 10 February 2013 - 06:17 PM

I thought people were not to make comments like that without having them removed? I may be wrong but nobody forces anyone to read or comment on any threads.


Feel free to report it then. It is a stupid and inflammatory thread, and other stupid threads like this should not be encouraged.

#17 jokin

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Posted 10 February 2013 - 06:18 PM

I think that from all the Cs not named Mauer in the Twins' organization, Pinto is the one who has the talent to be the next Twins' starting C when/if Mauer moves to another position in 2-3 seasons. He is a guy who is solid on both ends of the job. Hermann is fine too but projects more of a UT type, like a perfect person to have as a 3rd C if you want to carry 3 (because he can actually play decent OF). I'd love to see him get a chance to compete with Butera for a spot this spring.


Good to hear about Pinto. I like Hermann a lot down the road and I'd certainly love for the future to be now instead, but he's best off playing almost everyday for now at Rochester. His need of another year of minor league experience seemed apparent last September.

#18 PseudoSABR

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Posted 10 February 2013 - 06:20 PM

This isn't proof. This is supposition at best. (Not a pejorative).

#19 jokin

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Posted 10 February 2013 - 06:21 PM

The points with those 2 in the list is that:

a. they already signed a FA catcher for AAA
b. they have a second back-up C in AAA (Lehmann), which, with Herrmann makes it 3 in AAA, so they have enough depth.

(same with AA: Pinto/Knudson/Rohlfing)

So they have no space for him... Really. They have 3+ Cs in every level practically.


Teams are known to cut players when they find something more intriguing, Martinez has a higher level of experience and AAA success.

#20 The Wise One

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Posted 10 February 2013 - 06:22 PM

I thought people were not to make comments like that without having them removed? I may be wrong but nobody forces anyone to read or comment on any threads.


Just ask Johnny Dakota about how some people can say whatever and some can't. This is as much a comment in regards to the title of the thread as is Dave's response.

Edited by The Wise One, 10 February 2013 - 06:24 PM.


#21 The Wise One

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Posted 10 February 2013 - 06:26 PM

Teams are known to cut players when they find something more intriguing, Martinez has a higher level of experience and AAA success.


Well, obviously the Twins do not find him intriguing as they have passed on him twice.

#22 jokin

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Posted 10 February 2013 - 06:31 PM

This isn't proof. This is supposition at best. (Not a pejorative).


Who said anything about proof? Parmellee tore the cover off the ball in his 2011 September call-up from AA and struggled in 2012 (.229/.290/.380). The evidence fairly convincingly suggests that the jump from AA to the majors is rarely a smooth one. Even if Herrmann tears the cover off the ball this spring, are you suggesting that he is somehow odds-on favorite to be on the opening day roster?

#23 jokin

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Posted 10 February 2013 - 06:35 PM

Well, obviously the Twins do not find him intriguing as they have passed on him twice.


Yeah, I implied that in the opening post. I would like to know why they won't address a bench that threatens to conceivably hit below .600 OPS and factor in a chance to add positional depth pending a possible trade or injury to their current DH/C.

#24 FrodaddyG

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Posted 10 February 2013 - 06:36 PM

Yeah, I implied that in the opening post. I would like to know why they won't address a bench that threatens to conceivably hit below .600 OPS and factor in a chance to add positional depth pending a possible trade or injury to their current DH/C.

Are you insinuating that somehow the Twins need MORE catchers added to the mix?

#25 jokin

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Posted 10 February 2013 - 06:41 PM

Are you insinuating that somehow the Twins need MORE catchers added to the mix?


Fish or cut bait. I would also hope that the Twins would listen to offers to improve the club at every position. Right now, Butera still is an unacceptable major league ballplayer, Hermann is at least a half a year away, Mauer has to be limited to maximize the value of his contract and Doumit is a potential asset to improve the club via trade.

Edited by jokin, 10 February 2013 - 06:45 PM.


#26 FrodaddyG

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Posted 10 February 2013 - 06:47 PM

Fish or cut bait. I would also hope that the Twins would listen to offers to improve the club at every position. Right now, Butera still is an unacceptable major league ballplayer, Hermann is at least a half a year away and Doumit is a potential asset to improve the club via trade.

1.) They paid Butera. Nobody else will take on that money for him. He's a Twin for the season.
2.) Herrmann could fill in as a backup catcher in a pinch. More minors ABs would be optimal, but worse comes to worse, he'd be serviceable in limited, third-catcher ABs.
3.) Are you saying that they should try and trade Doumit NOW? If it happens, it'll be possibly near the trade deadline, and guess who has had another "half a year" in the minors by that point?

We're aware that Butera sucks, but the Twins have committed to him, and screaming that they should bring in a marginal-at-best upgrade just for the sake of bring in a marginal-at-best upgrade is pointless.

#27 The Wise One

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Posted 10 February 2013 - 06:52 PM

Fish or cut bait. I would also hope that the Twins would listen to offers to improve the club at every position. Right now, Butera still is an unacceptable major league ballplayer, Hermann is at least a half a year away, Mauer has to be limited to maximize the value of his contract and Doumit is a potential asset to improve the club via trade.


Doumit as trade bait would not happen unless some had a couple of catchers go down early or near the traade deadline. At the trade deadline Hermann would have a half year at AAA.
Others have stated the PCL is a hitters league with smaller parks, so his batting numbers may not translate well to mlb level. That would be a hint why he has been DFA'd twice.

#28 jokin

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Posted 10 February 2013 - 06:56 PM

Are you insinuating that somehow the Twins need MORE catchers added to the mix?


That's 4 catchers right there with question marks about how much time they will/should serve behind the plate. Their 2 other rostered catchers haven't progressed far enough up through the organization to offer immediate or certain levels of contribution. That's now 6 question marks.

#29 FrodaddyG

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Posted 10 February 2013 - 07:03 PM

That's 4 catchers right there with question marks about how much time they will/should serve behind the plate. Their 2 other rostered catchers haven't progressed far enough up through the organization to offer immediate or certain levels of contribution. That's now 6 question marks.

So bring in a 7th question mark, and a 6th catcher on the 40-man? Sounds like excellent usage of roster spots.

#30 Thrylos

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Posted 10 February 2013 - 07:06 PM

That's 4 catchers right there with question marks about how much time they will/should serve behind the plate. Their 2 other rostered catchers haven't progressed far enough up through the organization to offer immediate or certain levels of contribution. That's now 6 question marks.


Seriously. Frankly. (And I do severely dislike Butera's scholarship)

Catching was not what made the Twins lose 99 plus 96. (matter of fact C, and LF were the only 2 positions that the Twins had OPS higher than the AL average last season)

Bigger. Fish. To Fry.
(and they have not fried them yet.)
So getting a better 5th Catcher for a 96-loss team, would be like putting lipstick on a cement yard ornament pig

Edited by Thrylos, 10 February 2013 - 07:08 PM.

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