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Sinker: Why The Twins Will Stink

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#61 Thrylos

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Posted 01 February 2013 - 07:56 PM

This time of year it is about hope. All teams are tied, every one has the same chance to win the world series. There still is a flicker of hope. Two seasons of miserable performance (cumulatively the second worst back to back season in Twins' history by a single win) plus 21 since the last trophy, tends to make people less hopeful.

And more and more people are having negative outlooks. At least more and more people are trying to look into root causes and try to see why things happen. This is a positive. I think that every single fan should want their team to win every single season. And if their team plainly sucks, they should be upset. And if their sucky team does nothing to improve, blames the last 2 seasons on Jerry and Stelly and the people who drove the team to this condition have no accountability, they should really be wondering about the direction this team is going...

But there is still hope.
Twins Win! (but otherwise TR, and Gardy and Andy and Co have to go)
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#62 IdahoPilgrim

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Posted 01 February 2013 - 08:06 PM

Well, the Twins could hire a leg-breaker, but I'm afraid that would push them over budget.


What's Tonya Harding doing these days? She couldn't cost that much.

#63 birdwatcher

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Posted 01 February 2013 - 08:09 PM

Pssst dont be a Bogart , pass it =)


Be specific, not snarky, johnny. It'll help you mature.

#64 birdwatcher

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Posted 01 February 2013 - 08:15 PM

This time of year it is about hope. All teams are tied, every one has the same chance to win the world series. There still is a flicker of hope. Two seasons of miserable performance (cumulatively the second worst back to back season in Twins' history by a single win) plus 21 since the last trophy, tends to make people less hopeful.

And more and more people are having negative outlooks. At least more and more people are trying to look into root causes and try to see why things happen. This is a positive. I think that every single fan should want their team to win every single season. And if their team plainly sucks, they should be upset. And if their sucky team does nothing to improve, blames the last 2 seasons on Jerry and Stelly and the people who drove the team to this condition have no accountability, they should really be wondering about the direction this team is going...

But there is still hope.
Twins Win! (but otherwise TR, and Gardy and Andy and Co have to go)


Glad to see you've had a complete reversal, thrylos. Just months ago, you described the situation as a glass not half full, but shattered to pieces on the floor. Remember?

#65 Thrylos

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Posted 01 February 2013 - 08:27 PM

Glad to see you've had a complete reversal, thrylos. Just months ago, you described the situation as a glass not half full, but shattered to pieces on the floor. Remember?


I think that you missunderstood me.
I am hopeful. I am always hopeful esp this time of the year.

But

the last 2 seasons were (as I said 3 posts up there) cumulatively the second worst back to back seasons in Twins' history by a single win. Then the cherry on top was blaming those to Jerry and Stelly (also mentioned above). Thus the glass not only half empty but "shattered to pieces".

No reversal at all. Hopefulness for tomorrow and truthful assessment of yesterday (and today) can co-exist...

Edited by Thrylos, 01 February 2013 - 08:30 PM.

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#66 birdwatcher

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Posted 01 February 2013 - 08:34 PM

Apparently, a poster can't even find even one moment for a little levity. It must be sad to be you.

For the record, I have submitted many posts citing actual facts and logic to project optimism when it's warranted- even you would have to admit that the opportunities to post in such a manner have been severely limited the last few years.

To further that thought; I believe it was you who had faith that TR was going to take advantage of his experience and favorable payroll situation to make an offseason fix to the SP staff, similar to the fixes he employed to the RPs and field lineup in the 2011 offseason. You have gone on record on more than one occasion, stating that his efforts haven't met up to your expectations.


Absolutely. I said I thought Ryan should, and probably would, add three SP that equalled or even exceeded the Diamond standard. I predicted one would come by trade (and Worley did) and two via FA (in my uninformed opinion, none of the FA acquisitions are better than Diamond). So, I've expressed my dissappointment, shared by most of us.

So, because it was Pelfry and Correia instead of, say, McCarthy and Marcum, I've tempered my optimism. Are you OK with that, jokin, or do you want to continue to single me (and others) out when you comment in your customary derogatory tone?

No need at all for you to feel sad for me, jokin.

#67 Alex

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Posted 01 February 2013 - 08:35 PM

I think that you missunderstood me.
I am hopeful. I am always hopeful esp this time of the year.

But

the last 2 seasons were (as I said 3 posts up there) cumulatively the second worst back to back seasons in Twins' history by a single win. Then the cherry on the top was blaming those to Jerry and Stelly (also mentioned above). Thus the glass not only half empty but "shattered to pieces".

No reversal at all. Hopefulness for tomorrow and truthful assessment of yesterday (and today) can co-exist...


You reminded me of how I felt this time last season. And while I was still frustrated they cut payroll, I was far more hopeful than I am this season.

The Twins had signed a two excellent hitters, a middle infielder who at least be solid, and Morneau and Mauer likely had to be more productive than they were the previous year. The pitching staff wasn't a big change, but Baker would be back in the rotation and hopefully Liriano could figure things out. Their back end of the rotation signing wasn't all that exciting but it was just the 5th starter. Capps was a frustration on many levels, but there was a back-up plan. Of course, we all know how the starting pitching went, but I had far more hope prior to last season than I do this, even though the team is bound to improve; it's sort of by default.

#68 birdwatcher

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Posted 01 February 2013 - 08:42 PM

When were Stelmazek and White "blamed for anything, and by whom, thrylos?

They weren't, that's when. And isn't it ironic, coming from you, that you're bitter about those two, but have been calling for the Twins to rid themselves of the old (literally meant by you) guys like Rantz and Gardy? Who's been any better at the blame game than you?

#69 FrodaddyG

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Posted 01 February 2013 - 09:04 PM

When were Stelmazek and White "blamed for anything, and by whom, thrylos?

They weren't, that's when. And isn't it ironic, coming from you, that you're bitter about those two, but have been calling for the Twins to rid themselves of the old (literally meant by you) guys like Rantz and Gardy? Who's been any better at the blame game than you?

Well, when guys get fired, generally it's because they weren't doing their job. Nobody else's heads rolled but Smith, so we can draw the conclusion that the failures of the the first base and bullpen coaches were the most unforgivable on-field sins from teams that sniffed 100 losses two years running.

#70 Top Gun

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Posted 01 February 2013 - 09:24 PM

Anyone that has ever played baseball know that winning is contagious. So is being a fan. Losing destroys everything, it's unexceptable this year or any year. That is why being a Twins fan I expect the team to win this year, not maybe some year in the distance future I should know 52 years of being a Twins fan, and baseball fan is along time.. You know I will be cheering for every win again this year because it matters to me.

#71 FrodaddyG

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Posted 01 February 2013 - 09:27 PM

Anyone that has ever played baseball know that winning is contagious.

Anyone who has ever played baseball, or breathed oxygen, knows this is a completely meaningless statement.

#72 Top Gun

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Posted 01 February 2013 - 09:51 PM

Anyone who has ever played baseball, or breathed oxygen, knows this is a completely meaningless statement.

You learn that in little league, winning streaks losing, hitting, slumps, control a frame of mind. I say once you acquired that skill you own it. It's what makes you great.

#73 FrodaddyG

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Posted 01 February 2013 - 10:08 PM

You learn that in little league, winning streaks losing, hitting, slumps, control a frame of mind. I say once you acquired that skill you own it. It's what makes you great.

I've played baseball at every level from T-ball to three years of college ball. I coached everything from T-ball to Legion ball for ten years. I've obsessed over baseball since I could walk, mostly thanks to my grandfather, who played professionally back in the 40's. It's drivel.

Talented teams win, bad teams don't. "Winning is contagious" just another mindless sound byte thrown out to try and sell hope for bad teams, when the actuality is this: winning is symptomatic of talent. I've played for and coached good teams, and I've played for and coached bad teams. Many of them were essentially the same teams, minus the turnover of a few players. When good players leave teams get worse, even if they won before. When good players get added to bad teams, they get better, even when they lost before. That isn't "winning" rubbing off, it's the effect of superior talent doing what it does, which is performing better. Baseball may have less "scheming" than any team sport, due to the mano-a-mano nature of it. No amount of success by the hitters around him will make Drew Butera hit better. Put Butera on the '29 Yankees and he's still one of the worst players ever to be paid to play the game of baseball. To genuinely think otherwise is simply foolish.

#74 Kwak

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Posted 01 February 2013 - 10:41 PM

When this thread reappears between the 2013 and 2014 seasons I wonder how much the comments will change? How many will have changed "sides"? Someone should keep track.

#75 Top Gun

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Posted 01 February 2013 - 10:58 PM

Yes you do need talent, no question about that, but you need team work too. Talent brings team work and everyone better, Bad players just bring bad play and hopelessness. Talented teams don't always win The talent of Kirby Puckett & Jack Morris made everyone play better.

#76 The Wise One

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Posted 01 February 2013 - 11:08 PM

Anyone who has ever played baseball, or breathed oxygen, knows this is a completely meaningless statement.


As Lombardi, or was it Jery Kramer. said, Winning isn't the only thing but it sure in the hell beats whatever comes in second.

#77 FrodaddyG

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Posted 01 February 2013 - 11:13 PM

Talented teams don't always win The talent of Kirby Puckett & Jack Morris made everyone play better.

So it was Morris' amazing job on the mound that made the Twins play so awesome during game 7 that they needed 10 innings to score one run? Inspiring!!! Contagious!!!

#78 jokin

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Posted 02 February 2013 - 12:37 AM

Absolutely. I said I thought Ryan should, and probably would, add three SP that equalled or even exceeded the Diamond standard. I predicted one would come by trade (and Worley did) and two via FA (in my uninformed opinion, none of the FA acquisitions are better than Diamond). So, I've expressed my dissappointment, shared by most of us.

So, because it was Pelfry and Correia instead of, say, McCarthy and Marcum, I've tempered my optimism. Are you OK with that, jokin, or do you want to continue to single me (and others) out when you comment in your customary derogatory tone?

No need at all for you to feel sad for me, jokin.


Working from the backend of your post to the beginning:

1) Not a "feeling" at all, just an observation.

2) I'm not sure what is derogatory about placing you with the same sentiments as someone with as distinguished a baseball pedigree as Howard Sinker, and qualifies as singling out in a "customary derogatory tone." No need to attack when we've pretty much reached a general consensus on the offseason.

2) We've all shared and expressed our hope and optimism about the early deals and our disappointment in the overall FAIL that was this offseason. The difference is, with no intent of self-back-slapping, there were many of the realists on TD who predicted it would be a FAIL, based on a simple examination of the evidence in how the Twins ownership and FO operated during past events and their most recent actions and statements.

How many kept ranting that "TR won't let this team continue to be a bottom dweller", "trust in Terry to fix the rotation and right the ship", "only an $80-85M payroll in 2013? preposterous! TR would never do that!" ie, in response to the obvious trend that the Twins would continue to cut the payroll and pay lipservice to the concept of "fielding a darn good competitive team"- all this, despite having a future HOFer and a former MVP under contract in a brand new stadium that the paying public was assured meant a new day for the Twins to compete with the big boys? In the meantime, you will continue to attend cocktail parties with the Pohlad's and laugh from on high at the rest of the hoi-polloi who provide(d) the revenue to pay the team and build the stadium.


3) The blame-shifting in the fake-firing-fiasco of Gardy's closest cronies and TR's failure to recognize available talent and value within his own specified paramters for acquisition and his most recent toss under the bus of his ML scouting staff regarding the Correia deal are further evidence that this FO group's time has passed.

Edited by jokin, 02 February 2013 - 01:37 AM.


#79 johnnydakota

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Posted 02 February 2013 - 12:45 AM

The front office is actively sabotaging the team? Do you also believe that the moon landing was done in a studio in New Mexico?

Your post is bad, and you should feel bad.


Agent scott boras has suggested to more then 1 team to tank a season or 2 to improve there team ....
also if you eliminate 33 million in payroll from your team over 2 years without having compitent replacements ready , what do you call it?
Clearing a path way for guys 1-4 years away from joining the big team?

#80 johnnydakota

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Posted 02 February 2013 - 12:50 AM

Be specific, not snarky, johnny. It'll help you mature.


If i mature any more ill be farting dust

#81 jokin

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Posted 02 February 2013 - 12:51 AM

I think Howard nails it when he talks about how building for the future is great, but refusing to build a birdge to the future is hard to accept or justify.

The Twins have money to spend. They are in the weakest division in baseball. We may be a ways off from being a legit threat to win it all, but I think another solid starter and a competent middle infielder or two could have given us a shot to hang in the division race for a while with an outside chance to win it if some things broke our way.

But as I look at the roster now, I see a 70-75 win team.


I'm with you all the way, but I think 75 is the absolute optimistic ceiling. The margin for success is now as thin as it has been in some time. While they likely won't have the complete physical breakdown of 2011, it only takes one key player going down and another having a subpar season and this could easily be another team threatening 100 losses. I think the 17 scheduled games with the Astros, Mets, Marlins and Brewers are the main thing going to sustain hope for 75 wins and prevent the Twins from 100 losses.

#82 johnnydakota

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Posted 02 February 2013 - 12:58 AM

When were Stelmazek and White "blamed for anything, and by whom, thrylos?

They weren't, that's when. And isn't it ironic, coming from you, that you're bitter about those two, but have been calling for the Twins to rid themselves of the old (literally meant by you) guys like Rantz and Gardy? Who's been any better at the blame game than you?


So they fire the black guy and another guy whos entire job is to answer the phone and tell a pitcher to start warming up?
The pitching coach who has shown a lack of ability to cultivate any thing other then meatball city pitchers, is safe so that
the manager of back to back 95plus loss seasons will feel more comfortable?Personally after the 1st 95 loss season he should have felt very uncomfortable....

#83 jokin

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Posted 02 February 2013 - 01:09 AM

The thing I like about Jokin is this:

He gives me things to google cuz I have to trace down a bunch of his references... There is value in that!!! and Jokin I do appreciate it.


Initial inspiration came from Grand Forks way.

#84 jokin

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Posted 02 February 2013 - 01:15 AM

The bell curve is shaped the way it is for a reason. Yes, someone will likely be a one-year wonder; the odds that it's specifically Deduno are not so "easily" seen.

Saying Deduno could easily be the one to break out is along the same lines as saying the Twins either will, or won't, win the World Series in 2013, therefore the odds must be 50-50 on either outcome.


It's safe to say that both Glunn and I were talking tongue in cheek after midnight. We all "know" that Deduno won't be pitching in the World Series, just sayin' that when optimism still rides high in preseason, that he was just confounding enough in2012 to be eminently qualified to pin down as a one-year lightining in a bottle kind of guy.

#85 Riverbrian

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Posted 02 February 2013 - 06:50 AM

So they fire the black guy and another guy whos entire job is to answer the phone and tell a pitcher to start warming up?
The pitching coach who has shown a lack of ability to cultivate any thing other then meatball city pitchers, is safe so that
the manager of back to back 95plus loss seasons will feel more comfortable?Personally after the 1st 95 loss season he should have felt very uncomfortable....


Who's the Black guy? Do You mean White? :P

#86 Riverbrian

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Posted 02 February 2013 - 06:53 AM

Initial inspiration came from Grand Forks way.


:cool:

#87 one_eyed_jack

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Posted 02 February 2013 - 09:58 AM

I'm with you all the way, but I think 75 is the absolute optimistic ceiling. The margin for success is now as thin as it has been in some time. While they likely won't have the complete physical breakdown of 2011, it only takes one key player going down and another having a subpar season and this could easily be another team threatening 100 losses. I think the 17 scheduled games with the Astros, Mets, Marlins and Brewers are the main thing going to sustain hope for 75 wins and prevent the Twins from 100 losses.



---Yeah, maybe 75 is optimistic, but I expect a bit of an uptick in wins. The way I see it, it's similar to last year's team, but with better starting pitching. Not great, but better.

It's hard to overstate how bad the starting pitching was last year. So many nights we were down by 4 or 5 runs before half the fans had settled into their seats. It's really hard to win games that way. So better starting pitching should be good for a few W's.

And I could be totally off on this, but I have a gut feeling that the Big Canadian is poised for a monster comeback year that will make the Twins regret not extending him when they may have been able to do so for a more reasonable price.

#88 Top Gun

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Posted 02 February 2013 - 11:20 AM

Oh, it could have been alot worse without Diamond.

#89 Riverbrian

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Posted 02 February 2013 - 11:31 AM

---Yeah, maybe 75 is optimistic, but I expect a bit of an uptick in wins. The way I see it, it's similar to last year's team, but with better starting pitching. Not great, but better.

It's hard to overstate how bad the starting pitching was last year. So many nights we were down by 4 or 5 runs before half the fans had settled into their seats. It's really hard to win games that way. So better starting pitching should be good for a few W's.

And I could be totally off on this, but I have a gut feeling that the Big Canadian is poised for a monster comeback year that will make the Twins regret not extending him when they may have been able to do so for a more reasonable price.



That's the only way that I can see it... I'm not blind to all the concerns that many of us have. I seriously wouldn't be opposed to placing a big question mark somewhere in the team logo this year because of all the questions marks that we have at this moment in time.

My expectations are measured in my opinion. I'm not going to declare the Twins pitching staff on par with the rest of the league. I simply expect that it will be better through strength in numbers... Or at least Mediocre through Numbers.

As long as Gardy doesn't trot a struggling pitcher out there time and time again waiting for improvement from the struggler.

If the team is serious about turning to the next pitching option instead... If a goal of average pitching can be produced in 2013 by avoiding the really bad pitcher.

The games will be closer... The daily battles will be tighter and then we get a chance to find out what everybody else can do. If the team is fighting for wins instead of the air getting taken out of the balloon early in the game. We will begin to know who can help us and who can't going forward.

"To believe is to be strong... Doubt Cramps Energy... Belief is Power" Last year's pitching staff left the team doubting way too often last year.

This is how the Twins can shock us all... even me. I'm not betting on a winning record. I'm just hoping for progress and a feeling... even if it's a small tiny little feeling that we can win on any given night because without that feeling... It will be a long year because "Doubt Cramps Energy".

I simply choose to believe that just average pitching could have a big effect on the outcomes of our squad. Not looking for a WS Title this year... Just improvement and a reason for the players to compete because it's 4-4 in 8th inning instead of 6 to 1 in the 4th.

Edited by Riverbrian, 02 February 2013 - 11:34 AM.


#90 Willihammer

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Posted 02 February 2013 - 11:50 AM

I'm just hoping Gardy can get his his horses through ST without losing anyone. It has been cruel to this team in recent years.