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How the Twins Front Office Addressed Past Playoff Weaknesses

jorge polanco alex colome luis arraez
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#41 rv78

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Posted 18 February 2021 - 01:51 PM

The time has come for Buxton, Sano and Berrios to become the studs we have been told they would be. One has to stay on the field for an entire season, one has to quit walking back to the dugout with his tail between his legs after another K and the other has to become a consistantly good pitcher everytime he takes the mound. If those 3 things happen this 2021 team has the chance to be very very good.

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#42 Thebigalguy

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Posted 18 February 2021 - 01:58 PM

Thanks for the analysis. An 0-18 playoff streak is almost unimaginable. The improved defense will save runs, though BB and JD have to show they can stay on the field. I'm excited about the season. In the playoffs, I fear that the lack of an ace and a near-ace, unless they emerge as such, will be a stumbling block. But I'm hopeful. 

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#43 Nick Nelson

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Posted 18 February 2021 - 02:03 PM

 

The article in question is simply not good. It's arguing that Colone, a cost saving signing, is how the FO is improving our post-season chances.

He costs more than the reliever he replaced (Romo). He has a far better track record than the reliever the replaced. In what way is that a "cost saving signing"? It's hard to take your criticisms seriously when they're presented so inaccurately.

 

 

Honestly, I can't think of anything that says we have a homer problem more than arguing that our 33 year old, 7 WAR career pitcher, is the second best pitcher in the AL. 

Yes, how "homerish" of me to suggest that the Cy Young runner-up was the second-best pitcher in the AL. 

Look, I understand (and agree with) the notion that Maeda is due for some level of regression, but it's not like he just had a Scott Diamond 2012 season. They traded their #1 pitching prospect for him. He's always been a very good pitcher, and made specific adjustments that fueled his improvement last year. He came through in literally every big spot for the Twins. He's extremely dominant by any measure (higher whiff rate than Bieber). There is no real reason to doubt him other than the typical ebbs and flows of baseball, which apply to every player. 

 

 

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#44 Nick Nelson

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Posted 18 February 2021 - 02:04 PM

 

Cleveland, Chicago, A's, Blue Jays https://www.mlb.com/...ading-into-2021

That's one article ranking AL rotations, not #1 starters. Do you actually think Hyun-Jun Ryu is better than Maeda? Who in Oakland's rotation is better than Maeda? Chris Bassitt??


#45 Nick Nelson

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Posted 18 February 2021 - 02:06 PM

It's amusing to me how selectively some people choose to apply the 2020 small sample argument.

"It was a 60-game season, we can't put any stock into Maeda pitching at an elite level from start to finish. But the Twins offense definitely sucks and should've been completely overhauled!" 

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#46 drivlikejehu

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Posted 18 February 2021 - 02:25 PM

 

Cleveland, Chicago, A's, Blue Jays https://www.mlb.com/...ading-into-2021

 

Is that article about which teams have the best rotation, or the best #1 starter? Because the issue was clearly the latter.

 

Who on the A's staff is clearly better than Maeda? Who on the Blue Jays staff is clearly better?

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#47 gunnarthor

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Posted 18 February 2021 - 02:33 PM

 

It's amusing to me how selectively some people choose to apply the 2020 small sample argument.

"It was a 60-game season, we can't put any stock into Maeda pitching at an elite level from start to finish. But the Twins offense definitely sucks and should've been completely overhauled!" 

You make some fair points in all your posts (not the Maeda one, that's absurd on its face) but it's just to over the top homerish for me. Colone is fixing the pen?  

 

I think this team is a playoff team. If Buxton can stay healthy, he's at least a 5 WAR player. He's that good. Berrios might have one more upgrade in him. But the all-or-nothing offensive approach and the bullpen games make this a boring team to me. Others may enjoy it. This team also has a bit of "full system failure" potential - again. Hopefully, that doesn't happen.

It also doesn't look like we've done anything to be anything other than a bully to the really crappy teams and can't win in the post-season. We have little depth. We rely far too much on "throw it against the wall and see what sticks" to our bench and pen. Our minor leagues seem to have decent depth but not huge upside. Levine hasn't shown he can make first rate trades and has been mocked a bit for the Dozier fiasco when he got here and how Houston fleeced him the next year. I think its fair to say that, after this year, he will have had five years as our GM and it's not clear he did enough to build around the young core he was gifted. I don't think that's a controversial statement. 


#48 dex8425

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Posted 18 February 2021 - 02:39 PM

 

 

We still have the same problem in playoffs - no true #1 starter and no lights out closer. . 

Remember Joe Nathan and Johan Santana? The playoff problems can't be simplified into lack of an ace and no lights out closer. Pitching was good last year. Maeda and Berrios were both great in the playoff series. Maeda finished 2nd in the Cy Young voting. 

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#49 dex8425

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Posted 18 February 2021 - 02:43 PM

 

Is that article about which teams have the best rotation, or the best #1 starter? Because the issue was clearly the latter.

 

Who on the A's staff is clearly better than Maeda? Who on the Blue Jays staff is clearly better?

Ryu is definitely better than any of the Twins starters. That's why he was an expensive FA signing. His career ERA is under 3. 


#50 drivlikejehu

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Posted 18 February 2021 - 02:52 PM

 

It also doesn't look like we've done anything to be anything other than a bully to the really crappy teams and can't win in the post-season. We have little depth. We rely far too much on "throw it against the wall and see what sticks" to our bench and pen. Our minor leagues seem to have decent depth but not huge upside. Levine hasn't shown he can make first rate trades and has been mocked a bit for the Dozier fiasco when he got here and how Houston fleeced him the next year. I think its fair to say that, after this year, he will have had five years as our GM and it's not clear he did enough to build around the young core he was gifted. I don't think that's a controversial statement. 

 

I do think it's pretty "controversial," insofar as every statement in that paragraph is either factually wrong or highly embellished. And just the general tenor of your comments is completely out of touch with reality in every possible way . . . from what's reasonable to expect from the minors, what amount of depth clubs have, how easy it apparently should be to acquire elite starting pitching with a mid-level payroll . . . the bottom line is that your take cannot be rationally justified. It's just an example of complaining for the sake (and enjoyment of) complaining.

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#51 Dman

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Posted 18 February 2021 - 03:12 PM

 

Cleveland, Chicago, A's, Blue Jays https://www.mlb.com/...ading-into-2021

 

Well they weren't last year otherwise they would have finished ahead of him in the voting.Sure every year is different and different guys emerge but the article never insinuated Maeda was bad or not top 5 or not top 10 etc. It just listed some of the best rotations out there.

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#52 Hosken Bombo Disco

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Posted 18 February 2021 - 03:12 PM

Levine hasn't shown he can make first rate trades ...

I am looking forward to the season but since the knives are out for you, I will have to agree with you here. They just haven’t pulled the trigger on the big one. Syndergaard might have been acquired in 2019 for Buxton, who reached his peak value on July 31 that year. Before that, Gerrit Cole, hundred million dollar pitcher, might have been had for the price of Nick Gordon and others. These trade ideas were discussed real time. It’s okay that they didn’t make these trades, and it should also be acceptable to point out that they could have.

I still like the Maeda trade, but we should temper our praise of it by acknowledging that the player we gave up was much better than expected. We’ll see how it plays out. In a hypothetical redraft, Maeda would not be the second AL starting pitcher chosen, not by a long shot, so I agree with you there, as well. Doesn’t mean I don’t like Maeda. I think he’s very good.
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#53 Dman

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Posted 18 February 2021 - 03:19 PM

 

You make some fair points in all your posts (not the Maeda one, that's absurd on its face) but it's just to over the top homerish for me. Colone is fixing the pen?  

 

I think this team is a playoff team. If Buxton can stay healthy, he's at least a 5 WAR player. He's that good. Berrios might have one more upgrade in him. But the all-or-nothing offensive approach and the bullpen games make this a boring team to me. Others may enjoy it. This team also has a bit of "full system failure" potential - again. Hopefully, that doesn't happen.

It also doesn't look like we've done anything to be anything other than a bully to the really crappy teams and can't win in the post-season. We have little depth. We rely far too much on "throw it against the wall and see what sticks" to our bench and pen. Our minor leagues seem to have decent depth but not huge upside. Levine hasn't shown he can make first rate trades and has been mocked a bit for the Dozier fiasco when he got here and how Houston fleeced him the next year. I think its fair to say that, after this year, he will have had five years as our GM and it's not clear he did enough to build around the young core he was gifted. I don't think that's a controversial statement. 

 

Dude are you serious?Levine is so bad the Phillies wanted him for the top job in their organization.Do you even read about Baseaball?  https://www.nbcsport...es-michael-hillNote the words successful turn around in the article as well.

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#54 gunnarthor

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Posted 18 February 2021 - 04:02 PM

 

I am looking forward to the season but since the knives are out for you, I will have to agree with you here. They just haven’t pulled the trigger on the big one. Syndergaard might have been acquired in 2019 for Buxton, who reached his peak value on July 31 that year. Before that, Gerrit Cole, hundred million dollar pitcher, might have been had for the price of Nick Gordon and others. These trade ideas were discussed real time. It’s okay that they didn’t make these trades, and it should also be acceptable to point out that they could have.

I still like the Maeda trade, but we should temper our praise of it by acknowledging that the player we gave up was much better than expected. We’ll see how it plays out. In a hypothetical redraft, Maeda would not be the second AL starting pitcher chosen, not by a long shot, so I agree with you there, as well. Doesn’t mean I don’t like Maeda. I think he’s very good.

Maeda trade was solid. So was the Odorizzi trade. He's not helpless. But he's made bad trades and hasn't - yet - traded for elite players. 


#55 prouster

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Posted 18 February 2021 - 04:08 PM

I am looking forward to the season but since the knives are out for you, I will have to agree with you here. They just haven’t pulled the trigger on the big one. Syndergaard might have been acquired in 2019 for Buxton, who reached his peak value on July 31 that year. Before that, Gerrit Cole, hundred million dollar pitcher, might have been had for the price of Nick Gordon and others. These trade ideas were discussed real time. It’s okay that they didn’t make these trades, and it should also be acceptable to point out that they could have.

I still like the Maeda trade, but we should temper our praise of it by acknowledging that the player we gave up was much better than expected. We’ll see how it plays out. In a hypothetical redraft, Maeda would not be the second AL starting pitcher chosen, not by a long shot, so I agree with you there, as well. Doesn’t mean I don’t like Maeda. I think he’s very good.

You mention the Maeda trade, but apparently that doesn’t count. The guy just put in the best performance they’ve gotten from a starter since Johan. Short season caveat, of course, but holy cow. Some people can’t be satisfied.

Also worth noting they gave up a shortstop who flamed out in A-ball for Odorizzi. He’s not Syndergaard (everyone would complain about the stupid trade for an injured starter if we acquired him), but he was an All-Star and pitched very well in the 2019 ALDS.

Falvey is a really good POBO.
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#56 JLease

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Posted 18 February 2021 - 04:08 PM

 

Maeda trade was solid. So was the Odorizzi trade. He's not helpless. But he's made bad trades and hasn't - yet - traded for elite players. 

 

What are the bad deals? 

 

You're clearly underrating the Maeda deal, for whatever reason: the twins dealt a reliever for a starter and said starter was awesome in his first season and has a contract that's incredibly team-friendly. While the Dodgers may have gotten what they wanted as well, it's still an excellent deal for the Twins by basically reasonable measure.

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#57 prouster

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Posted 18 February 2021 - 04:10 PM

by basically reasonable measure.


This is the sticking point.

#58 Hosken Bombo Disco

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Posted 18 February 2021 - 04:35 PM

You mention the Maeda trade, but apparently that doesn’t count. The guy just put in the best performance they’ve gotten from a starter since Johan. Short season caveat, of course, but holy cow. Some people can’t be satisfied.
Also worth noting they gave up a shortstop who flamed out in A-ball for Odorizzi. He’s not Syndergaard (everyone would complain about the stupid trade for an injured starter if we acquired him), but he was an All-Star and pitched very well in the 2019 ALDS.
Falvey is a really good POBO.

The Maeda trade was good, but the guy we gave up for Maeda has already played a key part in a World Series championship and is on the verge of becoming one of the premiere relievers in baseball. Is that a fair assessment? :)

The Odorizzi trade was a steal. There have been some other trade wins and trade losses. Syndergaard was healthy for 2019 when we could have used him, and is already rehabbing for 2021.

If Alcala or Duran become elite, we’ll all share a laugh about this.
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#59 prouster

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Posted 18 February 2021 - 04:40 PM

The Maeda trade was good, but the guy we gave up for Maeda has already played a key part in a World Series championship and is on the verge of becoming one of the premiere relievers in baseball. Is that a fair assessment? :)

The Odorizzi trade was a steal. There have been some other trade wins and trade losses. Syndergaard was healthy for 2019 when we could have used him, and is already rehabbing for 2021.

If Alcala or Duran become elite, we’ll all share a laugh about this.


Agree it hurt to lose Graterol. We’ll see how he develops and if he ever starts again. Regardless, I think it’s an under appreciatd trade simply because of how good Maeda pitched and the contract he’s on. Off the top of my head, it’s arguably the best trade the organization has made since AJ went to San Francisco. I actually don’t think it really matters if Graterol becomes elite or flames out. Maeda pitched like a mad man last year and seems like he made some real improvements.

I just get frustrated when I see people making criticisms I don’t think are fair against people who have a really hard job that doesn’t really matter in the grand scheme of things. Baseball should be fun.
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#60 drivlikejehu

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Posted 18 February 2021 - 04:43 PM

 

The Maeda trade was good, but the guy we gave up for Maeda has already played a key part in a World Series championship and is on the verge of becoming one of the premiere relievers in baseball. Is that a fair assessment? :)

The Odorizzi trade was a steal. There have been some other trade wins and trade losses. Syndergaard was healthy for 2019 when we could have used him, and is already rehabbing for 2021.

If Alcala or Duran become elite, we’ll all share a laugh about this.

 

This is some big-time goal-post moving on the Maeda deal. The concern with giving up Graterol was that he'd turn into a #1 or #2 starter, not that he'd be a solid 7th inning reliever. 

 

The Syndergaard thing never made sense, no MLB club would have made that deal. There's a reason he's still with the Mets. It's one thing to say the Twins should have traded for someone that, you know, actually got traded. This is something else entirely, and not at all a legitimate line of criticism.

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