Jump to content

Providing independent coverage of the Minnesota Twins.
The same great Twins Daily coverage, now for the Vikings.

The Store


Photo

Souhan: Ryan's Future Might Be Tied To Gardenhire's

  • Please log in to reply
41 replies to this topic

#1 John Bonnes

John Bonnes

    Owner

  • Administrators
  • 4,957 posts

Posted 28 January 2013 - 11:56 AM

Souhan: Ryan sees himself, manager in same boat | StarTribune.com

Ryan could fire Gardenhire this season. Sunday, he seemed to be hinting that he won't. One reading of Ryan's comments is this: Either he and Gardenhire will turn the Twins around together over the next couple of years, or they'll leave the organization joined at the hip.


I wouldn't have thought this was the case at the beginning of the offseason, but after this offseason, it might be. It's certainly not fair to judge Gardy give the team that Ryan has assembled. And given that he had money and didn't use it, the talent level on this team falls squarely on Ryan's shoulders.

#2 Winston Smith

Winston Smith

    Old Geezer

  • Members
  • 1,398 posts
  • LocationOceania

Posted 28 January 2013 - 12:05 PM

This was from Ryan in the Mackey story;

" We think we have a pretty good lineup one through nine, so I can tell you our expectations are to compete and to contend."

This would tell me that Ryan feels he has done his job and now it's up to Gardy to deliver!

May all our prospects be All Stars and the beer be free.


#3 Badsmerf

Badsmerf

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 1,666 posts

Posted 28 January 2013 - 12:21 PM

The ole boys club at its finest. Hopefully their days are numbered. I've said it in the past, you can't judge Gardy on the last few years. Judge him on his disgusting performances in the playoffs, terrible handling of young players, and batting Drew Butera 2nd or 3rd. Everything comes to an end, I wont miss this era.
Do or do not. There is no try.

#4 Boom Boom

Boom Boom

    Hydraulic Choppers

  • Members
  • 1,122 posts

Posted 28 January 2013 - 12:30 PM

Maybe my reading comprehension is off, but it sounds like Gardy and Ryan will decide when they leave, and nobody else is going to tell them.

#5 ThePuck

ThePuck

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 3,232 posts

Posted 28 January 2013 - 12:34 PM

This was from Ryan in the Mackey story;

" We think we have a pretty good lineup one through nine, so I can tell you our expectations are to compete and to contend."

This would tell me that Ryan feels he has done his job and now it's up to Gardy to deliver!


I wonder if Ryan's office is padded?

#6 mnfanforlife

mnfanforlife

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 492 posts

Posted 28 January 2013 - 12:40 PM

I would have to agree with the article. Gardy may be around in 2014. Heck, he may even get a shot at managing Sano? The Twins will lose 85 games next year, but not their manager.

#7 gunnarthor

gunnarthor

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 2,779 posts

Posted 28 January 2013 - 12:58 PM

The ole boys club at its finest. Hopefully their days are numbered. I've said it in the past, you can't judge Gardy on the last few years. Judge him on his disgusting performances in the playoffs, terrible handling of young players, and batting Drew Butera 2nd or 3rd. Everything comes to an end, I wont miss this era.


Man, posts like this drive me nuts. Butera has never batted 2nd. He's had 11 plate appearances in his career batting 3rd and all of them came after he relieved Mauer. (He's only had one start where he wasn't batting 8th or 9th. He batted 7th once). Gardy has done a fine job with young players and his team has always been among the youngest in the league. In fact, since he became our manager, we've had the youngest lineup 3 times, 2nd youngest 3 times, 3rd youngest 3 times and only one season where they weren't among the 5 youngest lineups in baseball. He's gotten the best out of a lot of young guys. The list of guys who have been better after they left Gardy is incredibly short. (cue paranoid Machiavellian Gardy theories now). The 5 teams that the Twins have lost to in the 1st round have averaged 101 wins/season but let's act like the 86 win Twins team should've beaten those Yankees.

#8 gunnarthor

gunnarthor

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 2,779 posts

Posted 28 January 2013 - 01:01 PM

I don't think Gardy is the problem but I think he's also respected enough around the league that I could see him leaving the Twins after the year to manage somewhere else. I don't think that will happen and think it's more likely that the Twins extend him, but I could see him going to a NL team.

#9 nicksaviking

nicksaviking

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 3,714 posts

Posted 28 January 2013 - 01:07 PM

I've never been much of a Gardenhire appologist, but I hope he and Ryan are not joined at the hip, simply because when this awful club blows up, Ryan needs to be the first to go.

#10 ThePuck

ThePuck

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 3,232 posts

Posted 28 January 2013 - 01:09 PM

I've never been much of a Gardenhire appologist, but I hope he and Ryan are not joined at the hip, simply because when this awful club blows up, Ryan needs to be the first to go.


I haven't been a Gardy supporter since around August 2007. Coincidentally, Ryan lost me in 2007 as well, though earlier.

#11 kirbyelway

kirbyelway

    Member

  • Members
  • 53 posts

Posted 28 January 2013 - 01:12 PM

The ole boys club at its finest. Hopefully their days are numbered. I've said it in the past, you can't judge Gardy on the last few years. Judge him on his disgusting performances in the playoffs, terrible handling of young players, and batting Drew Butera 2nd or 3rd. Everything comes to an end, I wont miss this era.


LOL, do you really believe what you just posted? The only thing you said that made any sense was the handling of young players. I do think he needs a little help with young players and their ups and downs. People throw Drew Butera in their like he is an everday player, when the truth is he batted a little over 100 times last year.

#12 mnfanforlife

mnfanforlife

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 492 posts

Posted 28 January 2013 - 01:14 PM

Coaching Jobs are not meant to be secure. But this job has been one of the most secure in baseball since TK started way back when

#13 ThePuck

ThePuck

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 3,232 posts

Posted 28 January 2013 - 01:17 PM

Quick question...in today's day and age, if the Red Sox, Angels or Yanks manager led his team to 12 straight playoff losses, regardless of the opponent, would that manager stay the manager, or would he be canned?

#14 mnfanforlife

mnfanforlife

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 492 posts

Posted 28 January 2013 - 01:21 PM

Oh! Pick me! I know this one!

#15 Kwak

Kwak

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 1,296 posts

Posted 28 January 2013 - 01:23 PM

My take on the article is different--Gardenhire will be tendered another contract. Ryan is guiding the team under a management-approved plan and Gardenhire is Ryan's guy--and always was! Back in the days (2001) when Kelly was to replaced the "discussion" was between Gardenhire and Ryan. I believe Gardenhire pledged heart, mind, body, sole, and baseball philosophy to Ryan to get the job. Molitor didn't (plus he had the BB creds to "disagree" with Ryan)--so Buh-bye to Molitor. No one ever accused the Twins of ignoring loyalty to the boss as a praise-worthy quality. Some heads had to be "put-in-a-basket" after last season, so a contract extention was not practicable. But anything signifying improvement, or turnaround can (and will) be used to justify tendering another contract to Gardenhire. This statement by Ryan is termed "foreshadowing" and serves to refute any who might claim "Deux es Machina" when something "unexpected" occurs in the conclusion.

#16 S.

S.

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 205 posts

Posted 28 January 2013 - 01:23 PM

If they weren't canned after those 12 straight playoff losses, the following two 95+ loss seasons would have certainly done them in on just about any team, regardless of if it was NY or Boston or whoever.

#17 ThePuck

ThePuck

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 3,232 posts

Posted 28 January 2013 - 01:26 PM

If they weren't canned after those 12 straight playoff losses, the following two 95+ loss seasons would have certainly done them in on just about any team, regardless of if it was NY or Boston or whoever.


It was a trick question, the managers of those teams would have never even reached 12 straight playoff losses before they were canned :-)

And you are definitely right about 'the following two 95+ loss seasons would have certainly done them in on just about any team, regardless of if it was NY or Boston or whoever.'

#18 gunnarthor

gunnarthor

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 2,779 posts

Posted 28 January 2013 - 01:27 PM

Quick question...in today's day and age, if the Red Sox, Angels or Yanks manager led his team to 12 straight playoff losses, regardless of the opponent, would that manager stay the manager, or would he be canned?


Are you really comparing the resources of the 3 largest AL markets to the Twins under Gardy? Really?

#19 ThePuck

ThePuck

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 3,232 posts

Posted 28 January 2013 - 01:27 PM

Oh! Pick me! I know this one!


ah man, didn't see your post before I gave the answer...sorry buddy :-)

#20 ThePuck

ThePuck

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 3,232 posts

Posted 28 January 2013 - 01:31 PM

Are you really comparing the resources of the 3 largest AL markets to the Twins under Gardy? Really?


No, I'm comparing playoff results...you wanna give them a pass for losing 12 straight cause of payroll issues, cool...good on ya...but the team managed 94 wins with a payroll under 100M...and couldn't scrap out even one playoff win. Other teams have gotten to the second round and even into the W Series with a lower payroll than ours...

and heck, it could easily apply to ANY team, especially when you throw that in with consecutive seasons with at least 95 losses.

MLB record for consecutive playoff losses is 13.

2006 we have the MVP, the batting champ, the CY Young winner, HR hitting and gold glove wearing CF, a top 3 closer, Cuddy knocking in 100 RBI...and we get swept by Oakland.

Edited by ThePuck, 28 January 2013 - 01:38 PM.


#21 jokin

jokin

    Twins News Team

  • Twins News Team
  • 7,122 posts

Posted 28 January 2013 - 01:34 PM

Are you really comparing the resources of the 3 largest AL markets to the Twins under Gardy? Really?


Are you really as obtuse as oldnurse? Really?

#22 greengoblinrulz

greengoblinrulz

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 1,759 posts

Posted 28 January 2013 - 01:53 PM

This is a 90 loss team IMO & if im right & Gardy gets a new contract.....fans that are left will revolt

#23 gunnarthor

gunnarthor

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 2,779 posts

Posted 28 January 2013 - 02:00 PM

No, I'm comparing playoff results...you wanna give them a pass for losing 12 straight cause of payroll issues, cool...good on ya...but the team managed 94 wins with a payroll under 100M...and couldn't scrap out even one playoff win. Other teams have gotten to the second round and even into the W Series with a lower payroll than ours...
.


Not really, not in the AL anyways. MN and Oakland have only won in the playoffs when facing each other, otherwise 0-9. The 08 Rays are really the only low payroll team that had post season success, and, of course, they've been one and done twice since then. And that team was created by having high draft picks for a decade.

That's not to say that an avg payroll (the Rangers, Twins in 10) won't work in the playoffs. But actual, low, payrolls winning in the AL? Doesn't really happen.

12 games isn't really a good way to judge a manager, especially since you're trying to make sweeping generational claims about a system that has recently changed. Only the 06 and 10 Twins would've made the playoffs in the old system which covers most of baseball history (04 team would have tied Angels and had a playoff). Had their been more teams in the playoffs over the best 80 years, the 12 games you care about wouldn't be so unusual. The 69-70 Twins, for instance, got swept out both years despite avg 97.5 wins. They happened to run into a team that still managed to avg 10 more wins/season. That happens to be about the same avg difference in the Twins first round opponents in the Gardy era (1-4 in the first round).

#24 TwinsFanInPhilly

TwinsFanInPhilly

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 133 posts

Posted 28 January 2013 - 02:02 PM

Man, posts like this drive me nuts. Butera has never batted 2nd. He's had 11 plate appearances in his career batting 3rd and all of them came after he relieved Mauer. (He's only had one start where he wasn't batting 8th or 9th. He batted 7th once). Gardy has done a fine job with young players and his team has always been among the youngest in the league. In fact, since he became our manager, we've had the youngest lineup 3 times, 2nd youngest 3 times, 3rd youngest 3 times and only one season where they weren't among the 5 youngest lineups in baseball. He's gotten the best out of a lot of young guys. The list of guys who have been better after they left Gardy is incredibly short. (cue paranoid Machiavellian Gardy theories now). The 5 teams that the Twins have lost to in the 1st round have averaged 101 wins/season but let's act like the 86 win Twins team should've beaten those Yankees.


How can we blindly hate on everything Twins-related if we have to rely on facts? You obviously don't understand us!

#25 mike wants wins

mike wants wins

    Would Like to be More Positive

  • Members
  • 6,135 posts

Posted 28 January 2013 - 02:03 PM

I don't think any of us knows the situation....imo, the most likely is that Ryan has his job until he does not want his job. I do not have a theory one way or the other with Gardenhire.

#26 gunnarthor

gunnarthor

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 2,779 posts

Posted 28 January 2013 - 02:03 PM

This is a 90 loss team IMO & if im right & Gardy gets a new contract.....fans that are left will revolt


What if the team is surprisingly competitive to near the break. Like 40-42. And then Ryan trades off Morneau, Perkins and Willingham and the team finishes 34-48 for a 74-90 record? Think they'd blame Gardy?

#27 ThePuck

ThePuck

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 3,232 posts

Posted 28 January 2013 - 02:22 PM

Not really, not in the AL anyways. MN and Oakland have only won in the playoffs when facing each other, otherwise 0-9. The 08 Rays are really the only low payroll team that had post season success, and, of course, they've been one and done twice since then. And that team was created by having high draft picks for a decade.

That's not to say that an avg payroll (the Rangers, Twins in 10) won't work in the playoffs. But actual, low, payrolls winning in the AL? Doesn't really happen.

12 games isn't really a good way to judge a manager, especially since you're trying to make sweeping generational claims about a system that has recently changed. Only the 06 and 10 Twins would've made the playoffs in the old system which covers most of baseball history (04 team would have tied Angels and had a playoff). Had their been more teams in the playoffs over the best 80 years, the 12 games you care about wouldn't be so unusual. The 69-70 Twins, for instance, got swept out both years despite avg 97.5 wins. They happened to run into a team that still managed to avg 10 more wins/season. That happens to be about the same avg difference in the Twins first round opponents in the Gardy era (1-4 in the first round).


Wow.

#28 jokin

jokin

    Twins News Team

  • Twins News Team
  • 7,122 posts

Posted 28 January 2013 - 02:27 PM

Not really, not in the AL anyways. MN and Oakland have only won in the playoffs when facing each other, otherwise 0-9. The 08 Rays are really the only low payroll team that had post season success, and, of course, they've been one and done twice since then. And that team was created by having high draft picks for a decade.

That's not to say that an avg payroll (the Rangers, Twins in 10) won't work in the playoffs. But actual, low, payrolls winning in the AL? Doesn't really happen.

12 games isn't really a good way to judge a manager, especially since you're trying to make sweeping generational claims about a system that has recently changed. Only the 06 and 10 Twins would've made the playoffs in the old system which covers most of baseball history (04 team would have tied Angels and had a playoff). Had their been more teams in the playoffs over the best 80 years, the 12 games you care about wouldn't be so unusual. The 69-70 Twins, for instance, got swept out both years despite avg 97.5 wins. They happened to run into a team that still managed to avg 10 more wins/season. That happens to be about the same avg difference in the Twins first round opponents in the Gardy era (1-4 in the first round).


My premise of relative obtuseness was misplaced. You tend to dig far deeper to find your rationalizations (and go glaringly out of your way to obtusely demonstrate your historical blind spots) than olnurse.

#29 nicksaviking

nicksaviking

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 3,714 posts

Posted 28 January 2013 - 02:58 PM

What if the team is surprisingly competitive to near the break. Like 40-42. And then Ryan trades off Morneau, Perkins and Willingham and the team finishes 34-48 for a 74-90 record? Think they'd blame Gardy?


Wouldn't happen. Ryan is way to indecisive. If the Twins somehow have a record like that, Ryan will imply that the Twins will be buyers at the deadline but in fact will do nothing because asking prices will be too high. By the time the trade deadline passes and it is clear the team is out of it, he will have sat on his hands too long and will have moved no vets for prospects.

#30 Willihammer

Willihammer

    ice cream correspondent

  • Members
  • 2,988 posts
  • LocationSaint Paul

Posted 28 January 2013 - 03:07 PM

[TABLE="width: 310"]
[TR]
[TD]2002-2010 playoffs[/TD]
[TD]twins[/TD]
[TD]opponents[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Runs[/TD]
[TD]75[/TD]
[TD]124[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]


The Twins actual record under Gardy/Jr: 6-18
The Twins Pythagorean record under Gardy/Jr: 7-17

Its probably not Gardy's fault for the Twins playoff failure. Those teams Jr constructed just weren't good enough.