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Upton to Atlanta

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#1 biggentleben

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 12:51 PM

Hmmmm...I know the national media are all ripping on Arizona on this one, but I think the Braves gave up a solid group for Upton.

Justin Upton and Chris Johnson

for

Martin Prado, Randall Delgado, Zeke Spruill, and Nick Ahmed

Depending on your source, there are some saying the Braves made this move without give up a single top 5 prospect (though Sickels has Spruill #5 and Ahmed #7 in the system). I just really think Martin Prado is an underrated player for what he brings to the table. He's very solid defensively at multiple positions, has a good bat, and he's a great clubhouse guy. I also like Delgado more than most, seeing him as being a very solid mid-rotation guy for a long time.

All that said, the Braves just got Justin Upton. The "What are you Up2" tweets are annoying already, but I do like the "Up, Up, and a Hey" comment on the new Braves outfield. The NL East will be fun to watch next year.
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#2 luke829

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 01:53 PM

I've read a few other message boards, and people are chastising the Braves for the talent that they gave up. But going forward, it will be interesting to see how the brothers Upton adapt to playing in the same outfield with one another.
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#3 Twins Twerp

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 02:01 PM

Braves get a steal. Not just a good contract for a 5 tool guy, but I feel like they gave up little. They are going for it this year. Delgado is a 4/5 maybe a 3 if he reaches his ceiling and even most people don't think that is true. I think the Diamondbacks are crazy. You have now given up two top level talents for a bag of nothing (actually the Santana trade brought back nothing). I do think this will go down as a very lopsided trade and the Braves have to be an early pick to challenge the Nationals for the National league Pennant.

#4 biggentleben

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 02:18 PM

Braves get a steal. Not just a good contract for a 5 tool guy, but I feel like they gave up little. They are going for it this year. Delgado is a 4/5 maybe a 3 if he reaches his ceiling and even most people don't think that is true. I think the Diamondbacks are crazy. You have now given up two top level talents for a bag of nothing (actually the Santana trade brought back nothing). I do think this will go down as a very lopsided trade and the Braves have to be an early pick to challenge the Nationals for the National league Pennant.


This is incorrect, or Michael Bourn would have been brought back on a one-year deal. They're going for it for the next 3-5 years, and they have the young talent to do just that. I just REALLY like Prado, so I hate to give him up.
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#5 nicksaviking

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 02:35 PM

Compared to the reported return from the Mariners, AZ seemed to take a bit of a discount this time around. When you consider that Prado is a rental player the deal looks poor, it looks quite a bit better after we hear that they are already working on an extension. Since when was Deldado viewed as a back of the rotaion arm? When we were all discussing Span going to Atlanta, he was one of the top names mentioned and most people here would have been happy to have him all while we were clamoring for high ceiling arms.

#6 biggentleben

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 02:50 PM

Delgado's got a floor (with obvious caveats of if he doesn't blow up or blow out) of a mid-rotation starter. He doesn't have the upside of an elite ace, but he could be a solid innings eater that gives you 6-7 k/9 and a ton of grounders as he learns to pitch more in the zone. His stuff has wicked movement, and he's been able to pitch just outside the zone coming up, and no one could touch it. Now he needs to work on locating that stuff in the zone to create contact on his heavy fastball. As he does that, he'll be very, very good. There are a lot of Braves fans who would have preferred to include Teheran in the deal over Delgado, so Delgado's no chump change.
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#7 Top Gun

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 03:22 PM

It's a pretty fair trade for me. Pitching is expensive and Ahmed is great SS prospect that is hard to find.

#8 ThePuck

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 03:55 PM

For those who like the WAR stat:

Just last year, Prado had a WAR of 5.9, Justin Upton 2.5.

#9 jimbo92107

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 05:40 PM

The Braves look like they're stocking up their outfield almost as much as the Angels. Should be an interesting season seeing how all these mega-moves pan out.

#10 kab21

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 06:25 PM

For those who like the WAR stat:

Just last year, Prado had a WAR of 5.9, Justin Upton 2.5.


Just to show you how useless one season of WAR is:

2011
JUp - 6.4
Prado - 1.6

Over their careers (same number of games) they have similar WAR stats. The reason that you trade for Upton is that he could put up elite middle of the order numbers. He's so frustrating with that talent.

I consider this trade to be 1 yr of Prado (possible extension though), a decent MOR starter prospect and some spare parts. It's pretty clear that AZ had decided to trade Upton (and Bauer) and took the best deal offered.

#11 Mark_RM

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 07:18 PM

Delgado's got a floor (with obvious caveats of if he doesn't blow up or blow out) of a mid-rotation starter. He doesn't have the upside of an elite ace, but he could be a solid innings eater that gives you 6-7 k/9 and a ton of grounders as he learns to pitch more in the zone. His stuff has wicked movement, and he's been able to pitch just outside the zone coming up, and no one could touch it. Now he needs to work on locating that stuff in the zone to create contact on his heavy fastball. As he does that, he'll be very, very good. There are a lot of Braves fans who would have preferred to include Teheran in the deal over Delgado, so Delgado's no chump change.

I'm not so sure that Delgado's floor isn't more of a very good reliever. He has a good fastball and change, but no breaking ball and iffy control. Even if he tightens up his control so he stays a starter, he's still a 2-pitch guy (also known as a 4 starter).

Edited by Mark_RM, 24 January 2013 - 07:31 PM.


#12 ThePuck

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 07:23 PM

Just to show you how useless one season of WAR is:

2011
JUp - 6.4
Prado - 1.6

Over their careers (same number of games) they have similar WAR stats. The reason that you trade for Upton is that he could put up elite middle of the order numbers. He's so frustrating with that talent.

I consider this trade to be 1 yr of Prado (possible extension though), a decent MOR starter prospect and some spare parts. It's pretty clear that AZ had decided to trade Upton (and Bauer) and took the best deal offered.


are you under the impression I was picking a side on this trade? I was just throwing some info out there for those who think Arizona got completely robbed. I think Prado and Upton aren't that far apart, especially when you consider Prado's a starter quality player who plays multiple spots.

Edited by ThePuck, 24 January 2013 - 07:49 PM.


#13 jwestbrock

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 07:30 PM

I'm not so sure that Delgado's floor isn't more of a very good reliever. He has a good fastball and change, but no breaking ball and iffy control. Even if he tightens up his control so he stays a starter, he's still a 2-pitch guy (also known as Nick Blackburn from a few years ago).


This is kind of what I was thinking, from what I understand in a scouting perspective, floor is the worst case scenario barring him turning into Rick Ankiel or Brandon Webb the last few years.

That is something you want to consider when evaluating a pitching prospect. At times it is better to take a guy with a ceiling of a 3 and a floor of a 5 over a guy with a ceiling of a 1 and a floor of middle relief.

#14 Top Gun

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 08:16 PM

FOX Sports' Ken Rosenthal reports that Carl Pavano will be sidelined 6-8 weeks after suffering a ruptured spleen when he slipped and fell while shoveling snow on his driveway.

Well, that sounds about right for the oft-injured right-hander. Pavano had been set to sign somewhere soon to compete for a rotation spot, but teams will likely wait until he's healthy now. The Rockies and Mets were among the clubs that had shown interest in the veteran. Pavano is coming off a 2012 season where he posted a 6.00 ERA and dealt with shoulder issues.

#15 Willihammer

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 08:34 PM

You can't make this stuff up.

Anything can happen.

#16 kab21

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 08:35 PM

are you under the impression I was picking a side on this trade? I was just throwing some info out there for those who think Arizona got completely robbed. I think Prado and Upton aren't that far apart, especially when you consider Prado's a starter quality player who plays multiple spots.


Usually people don't throw out worthless statistics when trying to make a point. Prado is a pretty solid player but for this to be an okay deal then the DBacks have to sign him to an extension.

#17 beckmt

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 08:40 PM

Agreed, if not signed to an extension, then this is a bad trade for Arizona. Arizona had excess outfielders and turned their best one in something before he walked.

#18 Willihammer

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 08:47 PM

FOX Sports' Ken Rosenthal reports that Carl Pavano will be sidelined 6-8 weeks after suffering a ruptured spleen when he slipped and fell while shoveling snow on his driveway.

Well, that sounds about right for the oft-injured right-hander. Pavano had been set to sign somewhere soon to compete for a rotation spot, but teams will likely wait until he's healthy now. The Rockies and Mets were among the clubs that had shown interest in the veteran. Pavano is coming off a 2012 season where he posted a 6.00 ERA and dealt with shoulder issues.


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#19 ThePuck

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 09:15 PM

Usually people don't throw out worthless statistics when trying to make a point. Prado is a pretty solid player but for this to be an okay deal then the DBacks have to sign him to an extension.


YOU call the WAR useless. Notice I said FOR THOSE WHO VALUE THE WAR STAT.

Anyway, glad to know you feel you know me well enough to just make assumptions on what I'm thinking. I do this quite often, all over the internet where I talk sports...sometimes, I just throw info out there. Like here you go...here's something to ponder...

Edited by ThePuck, 24 January 2013 - 09:58 PM.


#20 FrodaddyG

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 09:40 PM

Agreed, if not signed to an extension, then this is a bad trade for Arizona. Arizona had excess outfielders and turned their best one in something before he walked.

Upton is signed through 2015. There wasn't any need to rush because of an imminent walk year.

#21 ThePuck

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 09:46 PM

Upton is signed through 2015. There wasn't any need to rush because of an imminent walk year.


They mean Prado

#22 FrodaddyG

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 09:53 PM

They mean Prado

"Arizona had excess outfielders and turned their best one in something before he walked"

#23 ThePuck

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 09:55 PM

"Arizona had excess outfielders and turned their best one in something before he walked"


Yes and they are saying if Prado can't be extended it's a bad trade for them.

'Prado is a pretty solid player but for this to be an okay deal then the DBacks have to sign him to an extension.'

To which the other poster agreed

#24 FrodaddyG

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 09:57 PM

Yes and they are saying if Prado can't be extended it's a bad trade for them

They're also saying they traded their best OF (Upton) for something "before he walked". That's not a factor in any of this.

#25 ThePuck

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 10:02 PM

They're also saying they traded their best OF (Upton) for something "before he walked". That's not a factor in any of this.


Well the second guy was...seems he's confused about what the first guy was saying...but whatever

#26 biggentleben

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 11:54 PM

I'm not so sure that Delgado's floor isn't more of a very good reliever. He has a good fastball and change, but no breaking ball and iffy control. Even if he tightens up his control so he stays a starter, he's still a 2-pitch guy (also known as a 4 starter).


Yes and no. Derek Lowe was essentially a 2-pitch pitcher, and he was even a staff ace for some time. Yes, Delgado could be an elite reliever as well, but a guy who has a heavy fastball like Delgado does really only need an offspeed pitch along with that fastball to be successful and rack up innings as a starter...that's considered a mid-rotation guy (a mid-rotation starter can be a 2-3-4, depending on the rotation). His delivery is repeatable, fairly fluid, and hides the ball well. His location in the zone is his real issue.
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#27 biggentleben

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 11:56 PM

For those who like the WAR stat:

Just last year, Prado had a WAR of 5.9, Justin Upton 2.5.


Prado at 3B in 2012 with the same offense wouldn't have had the same WAR. He'll be playing 3B for Arizona. Prado's just so much better than the average sloth someone throws in left field that it did skew his left field numbers.
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#28 kab21

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Posted 27 January 2013 - 11:17 AM

YOU call the WAR useless. Notice I said FOR THOSE WHO VALUE THE WAR STAT.


1 yr of WAR is nearly useless due to how much the defensive statistics are a factor.
multiple years (3+) of WAR are meaningful.

If you post useless statistics to make an argument then somebody should let you know.

#29 ThePuck

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 01:05 PM

1 yr of WAR is nearly useless due to how much the defensive statistics are a factor.
multiple years (3+) of WAR are meaningful.

If you post useless statistics to make an argument then somebody should let you know.


Whatever you say...

Just like when you assume someone is taking sides of an issue when all he does is post a stat for people to ponder, that guy should just tell you to piss off.

Since you seem to know what people are thinking without them saying it, guess what I'm thinking now?

Edited by ThePuck, 28 January 2013 - 01:08 PM.


#30 kab21

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Posted 29 January 2013 - 12:17 AM

I hope you are thinking about how you cannot post useless stats for people to ponder.