80 replies to this topic

[Darius]

Let’s be honest, if he looked like Jake Cave or Ehire Adrianza, nobody would care.

[yeahyabetcha]

Let’s be honest, if he looked like Jake Cave or Ehire Adrianza, nobody would care.

I would much rather have Ehire in as the 26th roster spot than Willians.

[LylesCrocodiles]

I would prefer someone who can play some better defense on the bench.

I wouldn’t be opposed to Adrianza or a guy like him.

My top choice would be Nick Gordon. His a top pick who is already 25. I’d like to see him used as a pinch runner/defensive replacement and at least find out if he can do that. He’s not getting any younger.

[Doctor Gast]

I'm a big fan of Astudillo. Last part of 2019, pitchers figured him out. He needed 2020 to adjust but of the shortened season and him coming down with covid he never had a chance. He was put in situations that he had no way to come out on top. 2021, he should have time to figure it out. He's a great contact hitter once he finds discipline.

[jud6312]

 

You have the same access to the data that I do. 

 

1) Go to baseball-reference.com.

2) Look up Astudillo. The good macro stats to look at for comparison to others are OPS+, WAR, dWAR (i.e., no cherry picking specific stats).

3) Pull up the 87 and 91 teams and look at the same macro stats.

 

It's a 5 minute exercise, or less.

OK, so you're making statements that you have no interest in backing up. Got it. 

[KFEY93]

 

I don't even like him as a meme.

:DRight? "Turtle run around bases" Come on, how old are we?

[dex8425]

 

What I don’t get is how Marwin, who is twice the player that this guy ever will be, is vilified by most posters, and this guy is seen as a legitimate backup.

Probably the salary. Marwin was drastically overpaid. 

[MGM4706]

Great article! Very Fair. With Rosario gone we need someone to add some fun to the team and Clubhouse. Plus a great Winter League is a plus. That is a high quality league.

[MGM4706]

People who would rather have Marwin must be forgetting his flailing at bats and he never did learn how to play an outfield wall. Way overpaid for his results.

[MN_ExPat]

I love "La Tortuga". Here's why:  

• I think he provides spark, energy and by all accounts I've come across, is a great club house presence
• He's versatile (yes, that versatility does manifest at a "jack of all trades type")
• He is an "Everyman" and a great story
• La Tortuga is a cool nickname, and if you don't like it, you obviously hate puppies and your Oma (your a soulless monster)
• He's fun, and frankly baseball is supposed to be fun

Now does this mean that he has to be a large and integral part of the roster?I think the team would be in trouble if he was, but he should be a part of it, even if that part is very small.

 

If the Twins decided to part ways with La Tortuga and release him back into the wild, I would also be ok with it, but I do intend on enjoying his (hopefully small contributions since that means that our other big cogs on the team are all running smoothly).

 

It baseball, and baseball is supposed to be fun and allow us to root for the "everyman" because it is right and good. There shouldn't be this much angst over this .

[jud6312]

 

I love "La Tortuga". Here's why:  

• I think he provides spark, energy and by all accounts I've come across, is a great club house presence
• He's versatile (yes, that versatility does manifest at a "jack of all trades type")
• He is an "Everyman" and a great story
• La Tortuga is a cool nickname, and if you don't like it, you obviously hate puppies and your Oma (your a soulless monster)
• He's fun, and frankly baseball is supposed to be fun

Now does this mean that he has to be a large and integral part of the roster?I think the team would be in trouble if he was, but he should be a part of it, even if that part is very small.

 

If the Twins decided to part ways with La Tortuga and release him back into the wild, I would also be ok with it, but I do intend on enjoying his (hopefully small contributions since that means that our other big cogs on the team are all running smoothly).

 

It baseball, and baseball is supposed to be fun and allow us to root for the "everyman" because it is right and good. There shouldn't be this much angst over this .

The problem is that Rocco can't be trusted to not use him - Tortuga is to him what Punto was to Gardy. (Except Punto was useful in the field.)

 

I joked about it last year until he sent him up to PH in the playoffs. It was then that I realized my jokes had manifested themselves into reality.

[Nick Nelson]

 

Telis is a far better catcher and hitter than Astudillo, but Astudillo being versatile (even if not good at any of those spots) is probably more valuable as the 26th man. 

By what measure is Telis a "far better" hitter than Astudillo? Willians has an OPS in the majors that's 200 points higher and 100 points higher in Triple-A. I would say Astudillo is pretty clearly the better hitter.

[Det95Twins]

I know he's not great at 3B but Sano can play there in an emergency.I see Astudillo as a 26-28th player on the roster.I expect the bench to be Cave, Arraez, Jeffers (or Garver), Gordon (for Pete's sake, give him a chance, this team could use some speed) and Rooker and Astudillo will get playing time filling in for injured players.

[MN_ExPat]

Perhaps, I can't/won't defend Rocco's use of him and like I said if the Twins were to cut bait with Tortuga, I would feel sad (even inconsolable for like...10 - 15 seconds), but I would move on the the next Everyman to root for.

 

No one's saying you have to like him, or even root for him for that matter. But sometimes it's ok to not grind on those folks who like to believe that the Puntos and Tortugas will make a huge difference .

 

The problem is that Rocco can't be trusted to not use him - Tortuga is to him what Punto was to Gardy. (Except Punto was useful in the field.)

 

I joked about it last year until he sent him up to PH in the playoffs. It was then that I realized my jokes had manifested themselves into reality.

 

[jud6312]

 

Perhaps, I can't/won't defend Rocco's use of him and like I said if the Twins were to cut bait with Tortuga, I would feel sad (even inconsolable for like...10 - 15 seconds), but I would move on the the next Everyman to root for.

 

No one's saying you have to like him, or even root for him for that matter. But sometimes it's ok to not grind on those folks who like to believe that the Puntos and Tortugas will make a huge difference .

And any and everyone is free to root root root for their favorite characters and feel-good stories. I'm not stopping them.

 

But in the last 30 years there's a whole lot of fun characters and/or great stories. What hasn't there been? A World Series.

 

Personally, I'll take the latter 100% of the time.

[DocBauer]

Whether a fan of Astudillo or not, I think there are points to be made/understoo3 about him that some just don't recognize as to his relative "importance" or place on the roster. And let me be clear here that despite being a fan, for various reasons, I've openly stated I wish the Twins would bring in another catcher for St Paul to join Tellis and I've been hoping the glut of solid/decent FA infielders still available would allow the Twins to spend an extra couple $M to provide even greater depth and flexibility to the bench in case of the injury bug hitting again. Now, barring injury, there may not be a lot of opportunity for games played and AB for a 2nd utility player beyond Arraez, but I'd rather error on the side of caution and bring someone else in. And there are some really solid/interesting options available.

But back to Astudillo:

1] While there have been some inconsistencies at the plate, we have seen he can hit.

2] While by no means a great glove man, he fields what he gets to and has a decent arm. He's not just a softball player on a ML team who stands at a spot. That's kinda ridiculous. He's also not bad as a 3rd catcher. And yes, I've watched many games where he is behind the plate. And I've seen some badly played balls. I've also seen him receive quite competently and be the receiver in well pitched games. So again, while a 3rd catcher option he is not just some guy thrown behind the plate.

3] I hold out hope Gordon can turn himself in to a useful utility man. I have even higher hopes that the powerful and athletic Blankenhorn can "settle in/down" as a hitter and defender who I could see playing 5 positions as a great bench piece.

But NOBODY is going to put those guys on the bench to play once or twice a week at this point. They still need to play daily, even if it's half a season before production and opportunity come calling.

Astudillo is not my perfect choice to be the 26th man. And you don't have to be a fan. That's OK. And he's no super-sub. But when someone just needs a day or two off, or gets tweaked during a game, or you need to shuffle the lineup late in a game, he's exactly what he needs to be: a guy with a decent bat and decent glove who can fill in here and there.

I'm OK if and when he is gone because it means someone better has replaced him. But right now, he does hold value.in his role.

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

You have the same access to the data that I do.

1) Go to baseball-reference.com.
2) Look up Astudillo. The good macro stats to look at for comparison to others are OPS+, WAR, dWAR (i.e., no cherry picking specific stats).
3) Pull up the 87 and 91 teams and look at the same macro stats.

It's a 5 minute exercise, or less.

OK, so you're making statements that you have no interest in backing up. Got it.

While it’s a matter of opinion only, whether or not Willians Astudillo is a “better” hitter than players on the 1987 and 1991 Twins teams, it really did only take me about 5 minutes to look up the data (though considerably more minutes than that to prepare and present here) to see that even Astudillo’s worst season so far compared favorably to some of the guys on the ‘87 team. (I used OPS+ here, please apply the usual caveats about comparing guys across time periods and eras)

So while the 1991 team wasn’t too bad, lots of guys below average OPS but not too low, the 1987 team had some real stinkers.

Here are the high(low)lights:

Steve Lombardozzi, the regular second baseman in 1987, had a full season OPS+ of 70, coming off a full season OPS+ of 79 the year before.

Al Newman, the utility guy with 349 PA, had an OPS+ of 59.

And the 1987 catchers, except for Mark Salas, traded mid-season, were awful. The starting catcher all year was Tim Laudner, whose OPS+ was 65, and backup Sal Butera posted a Drew Butera-like OPS+ of 21, a number so low that Astudillo probably couldn’t reach it if he tried—or didn’t try, or however that works.

Is this the right place to mention that Drew Butera also has a World Series ring?

Edited by Hosken Bombo Disco, 09 February 2021 - 10:58 PM.
light grammatical stuff

[diehardtwinsfan]

87 was a different era though... That's probably my big complaint in comparing Tortuga to guys on the 87 Twins. The question I'd ask is whether or not he compares favorably to players on WS teams over the last 5-10 years.

[Dodecahedron]

 

87 was a different era though... That's probably my big complaint in comparing Tortuga to guys on the 87 Twins. The question I'd ask is whether or not he compares favorably to players on WS teams over the last 5-10 years.

 

OPS+ takes eras into consideration as it compares players to other players who played the same year. So does WAR. There is a reason I suggested looking at those metrics.

 

And, to be clear, I did as I suggested before I wrote my post. I wasn't going to go and do it a second time to respond to someone who seemed to be unreasonably angry at the assertion that Astudillo would not have been the worst player on the 87 and 91 teams. And really, what would have been the point? Why play ball with someone who is unreasonably angry?

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

87 was a different era though... That's probably my big complaint in comparing Tortuga to guys on the 87 Twins. The question I'd ask is whether or not he compares favorably to players on WS teams over the last 5-10 years.

As a back up catcher, I’d guess yes he compares to today’s guys, even as a #2 catcher.