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Indians no more

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#41 SQUIRREL

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Posted 15 December 2020 - 03:58 PM

The american bullfrog was made the ohio state frog in 2010.


Cleveland Bullfrogs ... I like it!
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#42 KirbyDome89

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Posted 15 December 2020 - 07:22 PM

 

I also wondered recently about the Fighting Irish, so I looked it up. Cutting to the chase, it was an abusive term used against them which they themselves began to use in their own favor. It would be like a team of American Indians who had Redskins!" and "Indians!" yelled them, and then who used that name for their own advantage. Cleveland, Atlanta, DC ... those were never Indian-owned, operated teams. Here's an article that explains why Notre Dame is fine with their moniker. https://www.irishcen...10598-237740101

This feels similar to the argument that tribes or individual natives are ok with the Cleveland franchise continuing to use the Indian mascot. A common counter argument is that the feelings of those individuals, or groups, aren't necessarily representative of the whole. 


#43 Brock Beauchamp

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Posted 15 December 2020 - 09:33 PM

 

This feels similar to the argument that tribes or individual natives are ok with the Cleveland franchise continuing to use the Indian mascot. A common counter argument is that the feelings of those individuals, or groups, aren't necessarily representative of the whole. 

And it's possible that, someday, maybe Notre Dame changes its name. I have no real opinion on the matter, being neither Catholic nor Irish. If Irish Americans decide they want the name changed in large enough numbers to garner public interest in the subject, good for them.

 

But there's a world of difference between a group of people naming something after their own culture (in this case, Irish students and alumni) and a bunch of people naming something after a different culture (pretty much every Native American themed name in American sports).

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#44 BD57

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Posted 16 December 2020 - 08:07 AM

It's amazing that anyone is willing to allow their day to be disturbed by the nickname of a sports team.

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#45 nicksaviking

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Posted 16 December 2020 - 08:32 AM

 

It's amazing that anyone is willing to allow their day to be disturbed by the nickname of a sports team.

 

Team names used to be changed yearly and for all kinds of reasons. It seems like a really weird culture shift that people have aligned themselves with the cartoon logo as much as the actual franchise.

 

Frankly I'm surprised name changes don't occur more often. I'd think stagnant franchises who want a fresh start would jump at the chance to rebrand. It would drum up national awareness for your club and promote new merchandizing opportunities.

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#46 KirbyDome89

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Posted 16 December 2020 - 02:01 PM

 

And it's possible that, someday, maybe Notre Dame changes its name. I have no real opinion on the matter, being neither Catholic nor Irish. If Irish Americans decide they want the name changed in large enough numbers to garner public interest in the subject, good for them.

 

But there's a world of difference between a group of people naming something after their own culture (in this case, Irish students and alumni) and a bunch of people naming something after a different culture (pretty much every Native American themed name in American sports).

It wasn't part of their culture though. It was a derogatory reference to their culture. Yes, it was co-opted but that's setting the bar pretty low for acceptable use. There are plenty of pejoratives that have been appropriated; I doubt their modern day redefinitions used as team symbols would be met with much approval. 

 

Personally, I couldn't care less what Notre Dame does with their mascot. I'm pointing out that attempting to discern how/why certain slurs are more tolerable than others is splitting hairs.


#47 BD57

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Posted 16 December 2020 - 04:26 PM

 

Team names used to be changed yearly and for all kinds of reasons. It seems like a really weird culture shift that people have aligned themselves with the cartoon logo as much as the actual franchise.

 

Frankly I'm surprised name changes don't occur more often. I'd think stagnant franchises who want a fresh start would jump at the chance to rebrand. It would drum up national awareness for your club and promote new merchandizing opportunities.

 

I think that could fly, if the team can sell the idea that they're not making the change "at the point of a public relations gun."  

 

People don't like being told what to do, or being told that they're "bad people' if they don't agree with a particular opinion.  

 

Put another way ... people don't like busybodies and/or scolds.

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#48 Brock Beauchamp

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Posted 16 December 2020 - 05:10 PM

 

It wasn't part of their culture though. It was a derogatory reference to their culture. Yes, it was co-opted but that's setting the bar pretty low for acceptable use. There are plenty of pejoratives that have been appropriated; I doubt their modern day redefinitions used as team symbols would be met with much approval. 

 

Personally, I couldn't care less what Notre Dame does with their mascot. I'm pointing out that attempting to discern how/why certain slurs are more tolerable than others is splitting hairs.

If it's the culture taking hold of slang used about their own culture, that's a pretty different bar to clear than derogatory names for outside cultures. Surely you see the difference there.

 

I'm not even saying Notre Dame's nickname is fine, I'm just pointing out that what cultures do with their own culture isn't really my business, nor my right to tell them they're doing it wrong.


#49 KirbyDome89

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Posted 16 December 2020 - 07:19 PM

 

If it's the culture taking hold of slang used about their own culture, that's a pretty different bar to clear than derogatory names for outside cultures. Surely you see the difference there.

 

I'm not even saying Notre Dame's nickname is fine, I'm just pointing out that what cultures do with their own culture isn't really my business, nor my right to tell them they're doing it wrong.

Eh they're different avenues of arriving at the same destination; using slurs as a mascot. My objection all along has been consistency. It's a can of worms trying to sort out who is allowed to weigh in on which words, and what phrases are acceptable for use by which groups. 

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#50 twinfan

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Posted 16 December 2020 - 08:27 PM

My wife says Cayahugas for the river. I say Rockers for the R&R hall of fame. Can the Braves be next? Then all the birds. Then the animals. Then ...... There is lots to go through before a name can be suggested because of trademarks and copyrights. Hopefully they will come up with a choice of 3-4 and let the fans vote. Personally, I didn't think Indians were terrible but can understand if Native American peoples think it's offensive. I always thought it was a recognition but what do I know.


#51 Brock Beauchamp

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Posted 16 December 2020 - 09:30 PM

 

Eh they're different avenues of arriving at the same destination; using slurs as a mascot. My objection all along has been consistency. It's a can of worms trying to sort out who is allowed to weigh in on which words, and what phrases are acceptable for use by which groups. 

And my primary concern is whether people actually feel damaged by the existence of said name. Various tribes and Native groups have been protesting Cleveland's name for literally decades with growing intensity over time. I have yet to see a single person legitimately care about the Fighting Irish name unless it was couched in defense of a Native-based name, which is a really crappy argument because it's based in the abstract, not actual cultural substance of real people who feel personal injury.

 

That tells me all I need to know about the two situations. Again, should Irish-Americans start to care about the moniker, more power to them. I'll listen if and when they decide they don't like it, which they haven't in any significant capacity, if at all.

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#52 flpmagikat

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Posted 16 December 2020 - 11:35 PM

 

And, of course, "Vikings" is offensive and must go, to say nothing of the "Fighting Irish."

I'm of Swedish ancestry, and my only problem with the use of vikings is that the team is such a joke. 

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#53 nicksaviking

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Posted 17 December 2020 - 09:27 AM

 

Eh they're different avenues of arriving at the same destination; using slurs as a mascot. My objection all along has been consistency. It's a can of worms trying to sort out who is allowed to weigh in on which words, and what phrases are acceptable for use by which groups. 

 

I don't think that most of these remaining names are slurs though. Most of them are offensive DUE to the appropriation. Washington's football team name was obviously a cringeworthy slur, no decent person would EVER drop that word in casual conversation outside of a football context. However, there is plenty of context where the team names of Cleveland, Atlanta or KCs football team would be used in every day language. The appropriation is the problem.

 

There is no appropriation with Notre Dame, or the Minnesota Vikings, those team names are part of the culture of those that created the names and the large demographic of fans they were created for. It's consistent. 

 

 

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#54 twinsfanstreif

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Posted 17 December 2020 - 10:47 AM

I'd go with the Cleveland Mistakes after the nick name "The Mistake by the Lake." The symbol could be a dumpster on fire

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#55 MMMordabito

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Posted 17 December 2020 - 11:33 AM

 

I'd go with the Cleveland Mistakes after the nick name "The Mistake by the Lake." The symbol could be a dumpster on fire

 

Haha ... So the Cleveland Mistakes will play at Progressive Field


#56 railmarshalljon

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Posted 17 December 2020 - 05:13 PM

 

A friend said he heard Buckeyes suggested, which could be cool since it would honor the city's former Negro League team, except THE OSU would probably object.My friend then offered the Woodies.The first game I ever went to, between Cleveland and Minnesota, Woodie Held played shortstop for Cleveland.Woodie Held is also on my all-name baseball team.The entire team is available upon request.

 

Requesting all-name team!

You can't change the past, but you can still ruin your future.


#57 D. Hocking

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Posted 17 December 2020 - 05:22 PM

 

I'm of Swedish ancestry, and my only problem with the use of vikings is that the team is such a joke. 

 

I was 2 when the Vikings made their first super bowl appearance, and every five to ten years they manage to have some sort of extra painful play-off loss.A name change might not be a bad idea...

 

I wish I could remember enough of it to find it, but I read one article that nicely spelled out how even names that seem like they are honoring a culture it ends up being a stereotype and trivializes certain aspects of the culture.I am not explaining it well, but the article did a great job of making its point that even when the intentions were meant to be good, they were not.

 

Like Chief Wahoo, I am not sure how the tomahawk chop made it to the 21st century.


#58 IndianaTwin

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Posted 17 December 2020 - 08:26 PM

 

Cleveland Bullfrogs ... I like it!

 

Alas, the only Jeremiah to show up in baseball-reference, Jeremiah Reardon, played for Cincinnati. It would be great if Jeremiah was a Bullfrog. 

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#59 KirbyDome89

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Posted 18 December 2020 - 02:10 PM

 

And my primary concern is whether people actually feel damaged by the existence of said name. Various tribes and Native groups have been protesting Cleveland's name for literally decades with growing intensity over time. I have yet to see a single person legitimately care about the Fighting Irish name unless it was couched in defense of a Native-based name, which is a really crappy argument because it's based in the abstract, not actual cultural substance of real people who feel personal injury.

 

That tells me all I need to know about the two situations. Again, should Irish-Americans start to care about the moniker, more power to them. I'll listen if and when they decide they don't like it, which they haven't in any significant capacity, if at all.

The issue with Native mascots might go back decades, but it didn't gain momentum until mainstream media picked up the story, and that happened fairly recently relative to 20+ years you referenced. Maybe the push for changing the ND logo is on a similar trajectory, maybe it isn't given the same social credence, maybe nobody cares and it'll never be an actual issue. Regardless, the level of public outcry shouldn't be the determining factor. Cleveland's name didn't become more derogatory over those decades. You and I may not enjoy how the issue with the ND logo is being used, but that doesn't invalidate the larger point. I do think there are some people weaponizing actual oppression, but I'm not particularly interested in sorting out ethnic backgrounds or trying to create a criteria to determine which feelings are valid. Again, that's a can of worms that's best left closed. 


#60 KirbyDome89

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Posted 18 December 2020 - 02:34 PM

 

I don't think that most of these remaining names are slurs though. Most of them are offensive DUE to the appropriation. Washington's football team name was obviously a cringeworthy slur, no decent person would EVER drop that word in casual conversation outside of a football context. However, there is plenty of context where the team names of Cleveland, Atlanta or KCs football team would be used in every day language. The appropriation is the problem.

 

There is no appropriation with Notre Dame, or the Minnesota Vikings, those team names are part of the culture of those that created the names and the large demographic of fans they were created for. It's consistent. 

ND quite literally appropriated the term Fighting Irish. I'll reference my previous post about it's place in Irish culture.