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Spend money just to spend money?

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#21 ashburyjohn

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Posted 14 January 2013 - 12:30 PM

Based on their (front office) actions it seems pretty obvious that they never intended to truly compete in 2013.


It's possible they ended up changing plans; a few lowball 1- or 2-year offers to pitchers got them laughed out of the room, and they had the opportunity to trade both Span and Revere for younger prospects than they had intended originally.

#22 Jim Crikket

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Posted 14 January 2013 - 12:30 PM

I am SO friggin tired of the "don't spend just to spend" crap. You spend to put a better product on the field and win more games than if you don't spend. People that think unless you're challenging for a World Series title there's no point in spending any money have obviously never run a business. If the Twins won't spend enough to keep fans interested in attending games and buying merchandise in 2013, they'll have lower revenues and they'll use that as an excuse to keep an even lower cap on payroll in 2014. So much for the "save money this year to spend it next year" line of BS. It simply doesn't happen with this organization.
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#23 johnnydakota

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Posted 14 January 2013 - 12:30 PM

Why Cheap = Smart in 2013 - Puckett's Pond - A Minnesota Twins Fan Site - News, Blogs, Opinion and More

Puckett's Pond addressed this topic also. Based on their (front office) actions it seems pretty obvious that they never intended to truly compete in 2013. I could go either way on that subject so here is a different question. How do you rebuild and admit that w/o driving your fan base away? I don't have knowledge on other teams who have done this and the approaches they have taken from a Marketing perspective. Is it better to just come out and say we are rebuilding or is it better to say we are going to try and compete when they know it is not true? What sucks more? The Twins are coming off 2 awful seasons. If they feel that they now have a better plan and it means sacrificing 2013 then how do you properly market/sell that plan to the fans? I think they are making an error by not owning up to it. If they partially reveal a plan like that and it works then they build a lot of rapport with the fans. Per usual I am probably being too idealistic so please go easy on me.


Just like huston did... Or if im Jimmy Pohlad , i address the media , trade them all and give out a 10/15% discount on ticket prices.
Why trade them all, because in 2015-2017 when we are ready to compete again , who is going to be left? Why not add some pirces now, i would rather watch kids develope , then to watch mulity millionaire loss 100 games.

#24 Willihammer

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Posted 14 January 2013 - 12:30 PM

4.86 ERA in AA , this season will probally dictate wether or not May is a starter or a relief pitcher, some people believe


It is funny how perceptions of guys on the farm differ depending on what the FO is willing to spend on free agency. The Phillies do it, the Twins don't. So May is a RP talent in one organization, and a SP talent in the other.

#25 josecordoba

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Posted 14 January 2013 - 12:35 PM

First Time Poster Here who defended Mackey over at AM 1500.

1. The first question to ask is what the Team's True Talent Level. We've won 63 and 66 games the last two years. We also traded away nearly 7.5 WARP in Revere and Span. I realize the pitching probably couldn't be much worse. But it seems even the most optimistic gauges of the Team's True Talent Level would put it between (65-70 Games). Even accounting for Random Variation of perhaps 10 games either way. This doesn't place us real close to contention.

2. Could the Twins spend more money? Sure- I would never debate this. What I might question is whether this is the best idea. If you use the commonly assumed figure of 5 Million-6 Million Dollars for 1 WAR as cited by Dave Cameron this means spending an Extra 25 Million Dollars on Payroll only upgrades the team to a true talent level of 70-75 wins. The reality of this is the Twins are going to end up eating most of this money since they'll be hard pressed making this amount of money up at the gate. Even upgrading the payroll 50 Million Dollars. Still in most scenarios leaves them far from the playoffs.

3. Why not sign Maicer Izturis? I believe him to be better then the current option which is most likely Florimon. I happen to believe Florimon wouldn't hit enough to be a starting MLB Shortshop (Even with great defense). Yet if the Twins believe Florimon can be a long-term solution at the position (It's not absurd considering the value of Brendan Ryan) they may as well experiment. I would say the same thing about Plouffe (They're not finding anyone better in Free Agency). I'm not a Parmalee Fan but I'm alright with seeing what they have till Arcia is ready sometime in the next 18 months. Basically the types of players the Twins could acquire- I just don't see a lot of long-term gain from their acquistion. A guy like the Cuban Short-Stop Diaz (Would be a totally different story).

#26 FrodaddyG

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Posted 14 January 2013 - 12:36 PM

Just like huston did... Or if im Jimmy Pohlad , i address the media , trade them all and give out a 10/15% discount on ticket prices.
Why trade them all, because in 2015-2017 when we are ready to compete again , who is going to be left? Why not add some pirces now, i would rather watch kids develope , then to watch mulity millionaire loss 100 games.

I put this in Google Translate, and my computer blew its brains out.

#27 ThePuck

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Posted 14 January 2013 - 12:44 PM

First Time Poster Here who defended Mackey over at AM 1500.

1. The first question to ask is what the Team's True Talent Level. We've won 63 and 66 games the last two years. We also traded away nearly 7.5 WARP in Revere and Span. I realize the pitching probably couldn't be much worse. But it seems even the most optimistic gauges of the Team's True Talent Level would put it between (65-70 Games). Even accounting for Random Variation of perhaps 10 games either way. This doesn't place us real close to contention.

2. Could the Twins spend more money? Sure- I would never debate this. What I might question is whether this is the best idea. If you use the commonly assumed figure of 5 Million-6 Million Dollars for 1 WAR as cited by Dave Cameron this means spending an Extra 25 Million Dollars on Payroll only upgrades the team to a true talent level of 70-75 wins. The reality of this is the Twins are going to end up eating most of this money since they'll be hard pressed making this amount of money up at the gate. Even upgrading the payroll 50 Million Dollars. Still in most scenarios leaves them far from the playoffs.

3. Why not sign Maicer Izturis? I believe him to be better then the current option which is most likely Florimon. I happen to believe Florimon wouldn't hit enough to be a starting MLB Shortshop (Even with great defense). Yet if the Twins believe Florimon can be a long-term solution at the position (It's not absurd considering the value of Brendan Ryan) they may as well experiment. I would say the same thing about Plouffe (They're not finding anyone better in Free Agency). I'm not a Parmalee Fan but I'm alright with seeing what they have till Arcia is ready sometime in the next 18 months. Basically the types of players the Twins could acquire- I just don't see a lot of long-term gain from their acquistion. A guy like the Cuban Short-Stop Diaz (Would be a totally different story).


If Florimon was anywhere near the defensive player Ryan normally is, I'd be fine with him not hitting that much.

#28 johnnydakota

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Posted 14 January 2013 - 12:45 PM

First Time Poster Here who defended Mackey over at AM 1500.

1. The first question to ask is what the Team's True Talent Level. We've won 63 and 66 games the last two years. We also traded away nearly 7.5 WARP in Revere and Span. I realize the pitching probably couldn't be much worse. But it seems even the most optimistic gauges of the Team's True Talent Level would put it between (65-70 Games). Even accounting for Random Variation of perhaps 10 games either way. This doesn't place us real close to contention.

2. Could the Twins spend more money? Sure- I would never debate this. What I might question is whether this is the best idea. If you use the commonly assumed figure of 5 Million-6 Million Dollars for 1 WAR as cited by Dave Cameron this means spending an Extra 25 Million Dollars on Payroll only upgrades the team to a true talent level of 70-75 wins. The reality of this is the Twins are going to end up eating most of this money since they'll be hard pressed making this amount of money up at the gate. Even upgrading the payroll 50 Million Dollars. Still in most scenarios leaves them far from the playoffs.

3. Why not sign Maicer Izturis? I believe him to be better then the current option which is most likely Florimon. I happen to believe Florimon wouldn't hit enough to be a starting MLB Shortshop (Even with great defense). Yet if the Twins believe Florimon can be a long-term solution at the position (It's not absurd considering the value of Brendan Ryan) they may as well experiment. I would say the same thing about Plouffe (They're not finding anyone better in Free Agency). I'm not a Parmalee Fan but I'm alright with seeing what they have till Arcia is ready sometime in the next 18 months. Basically the types of players the Twins could acquire- I just don't see a lot of long-term gain from their acquistion. A guy like the Cuban Short-Stop Diaz (Would be a totally different story).


Nice 1st post , welcome aboard

#29 twinsnorth49

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Posted 14 January 2013 - 12:48 PM

Just like huston did... Or if im Jimmy Pohlad , i address the media , trade them all and give out a 10/15% discount on ticket prices.
Why trade them all, because in 2015-2017 when we are ready to compete again , who is going to be left? Why not add some pirces now, i would rather watch kids develope , then to watch mulity millionaire loss 100 games.


I put this in Google Translate, and my computer blew its brains out.


I'm on my 3rd CPU because of JD.

#30 Winston Smith

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Posted 14 January 2013 - 12:49 PM

"Spend money just to spend money?" I'm not sure anyone has ever said that. Spending money to make the team better when the money is there is what a good gm does. We know they don't roll the unused payroll into future years so don't you owe the fans the best team you can afford to field?

Sitting on a bunch of payroll dollars and not giving the fans the best possible team to watch and support is simply BS!

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#31 Jim Crikket

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Posted 14 January 2013 - 12:57 PM

How do you figure? In 2015, most, if not all, of our starters are gonna be pre-arbitration players or 1 year arbitration players? Sano, Parmelee, Rosario, Florimon (or another young guy), Hicks, Arcia, Benson/Buxton, Gibson, May, Meyer, Diamond, Worley (or Berrios). Other than Mauer, where are they spending?


This may actually be the case as soon as 2014 and is just one reason why the people who think the Twins are saving money this year so they can spend it next year or the year after are smoking something they really should share with the rest of us.

The Twins are unlikely to have a payroll at $100 million again during the remainder of Joe Mauer's current contract. With the additional National tv money kicking in next year, club revenues will quite possibly reach an all-time high (with the possible exception of year 1 of Target Field).

Has anyone else noticed that nobody... NOBODY... in the Twins organization has uttered a word about the old, "we spend 50-52% of revenues on MLB payroll" line they've spouted about consistently for a generation? My guess is you'll never hear them say that again. The new model will be closer to 40% of revenue and/or they'll start claiming that the bonus money they pay to draftees and international signings have to be included, in addition to MLB payroll.
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#32 Nick Nelson

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Posted 14 January 2013 - 01:00 PM

[quote name='Winston Smith']"Spend money just to spend money?" I'm not sure anyone has ever said that.[/QUOTE]
I've become convinced that this is the go-to rebuttal for people on the other side of this debate, even though it makes no sense and -- as you mentioned -- no one is saying that. Definition of a strawman that won't die. This became clear to me in the following exchange I had with Seth on the "Under-Delivering" thread (not to pick on you Seth, but I found this amusing):

[quote name='Nick Nelson']Then you are missing the point. It's not about spending to spend. It's about spending to make the team better[/QUOTE]

[quote name='Seth Stohs']No, I get and understand your point, but I think way too many people look at the salary number as if salary alone is what the team needs to compete. Spending just to spend makes no sense.[/QUOTE]

#33 josecordoba

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Posted 14 January 2013 - 01:07 PM

It's not so much spending just to spend. It's managing your budget in a way that when Money is most needed (July/August of Contending Years, Free Agency with important need to fill) the money's there. I realize it's frustrating if you understand the money probably being sat on but I would argue a much better strategy is to save the money when a team has a much greater marginal value per win.

#34 Guest_USAFChief_*

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Posted 14 January 2013 - 01:10 PM

Humor me here...can someone explain why "spending just to spend" makes no sense?

While you're at it, explain to me why "not spending just to not spend" does​ make sense.

#35 ThePuck

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Posted 14 January 2013 - 01:13 PM

It's not so much spending just to spend. It's managing your budget in a way that when Money is most needed (July/August of Contending Years, Free Agency with important need to fill) the money's there. I realize it's frustrating if you understand the money probably being sat on but I would argue a much better strategy is to save the money when a team has a much greater marginal value per win.


except it's not like they put the money aside for the next year...like, okay, we cut payroll from 112M to 94M and now to 80M. They aren't gonna spend 112 plus the additional 32M saved over the last two years. There is no reason to believe they'll put that money aside to spend in 'contending years' which his likely 2017 at the very earliest.

#36 johnnydakota

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Posted 14 January 2013 - 01:15 PM

If you always do ,what you have always done.
you always get , what you have always gotten.

Think maybe it is time for a change?

#37 johnnydakota

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Posted 14 January 2013 - 01:16 PM

I put this in Google Translate, and my computer blew its brains out.


So your saying you would rather watch a 100 million dollar payroll lose 100 games, then watch young guys getting a chance?

#38 johnnydakota

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Posted 14 January 2013 - 01:17 PM

I'm on my 3rd CPU because of JD.


So your saying if ownership was honest, that would be a dumb idea? You prefer to be lied to?

#39 ThePuck

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Posted 14 January 2013 - 01:20 PM

So your saying you would rather watch a 100 million dollar payroll lose 100 games, then watch young guys getting a chance?


He's giving you carp for your spelling and sentence structure even though he likely understands what you mean. Just more cheap shots.

#40 FrodaddyG

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Posted 14 January 2013 - 01:22 PM

So your saying you would rather watch a 100 million dollar payroll lose 100 games, then watch young guys getting a chance?

No, I'm saying your posts are largely incoherent.