Jump to content

Providing independent coverage of the Minnesota Twins.
The same great Twins Daily coverage, now for the Vikings.

The Store

Recent Blogs


Photo

Article: Under-Delivering

  • Please log in to reply
239 replies to this topic

#1 Nick Nelson

Nick Nelson

    Owner

  • Administrators
  • 2,066 posts

Posted 10 January 2013 - 11:09 PM

You can view the page at http://twinsdaily.co...nder-Delivering

#2 Top Gun

Top Gun

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 1,253 posts

Posted 10 January 2013 - 11:27 PM

Ryan insisted that the Twins would pursue a "pretty darn good pitcher" in free agency. In a subsequent interview with MLB Network, he responded to a question from Ken Rosenthal about his apparent rebuilding approach by saying, "I think that's a good excuse to fail, Kenny. I don't have much interest in telling people we're playing for 2015. We need to get going here, we've had two tough years… We've got to quit talking about building for the future." Correia??

#3 johnnydakota

johnnydakota

    Banned

  • Banned
  • 1,498 posts

Posted 10 January 2013 - 11:33 PM

Dementia?

#4 Highabove

Highabove

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 588 posts

Posted 11 January 2013 - 12:32 AM

Next year, Justin Morneau's 14 million will be coming off the books. This may drop the payroll into the 60's. Very little room available to sign quality Pitching.

Edited by Highabove, 11 January 2013 - 02:25 AM.


#5 lightfoot789

lightfoot789

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 590 posts

Posted 11 January 2013 - 01:29 AM

Would you be happy if we were the 2012 Angels? Spend happy with the same results as Twins = home for playoffs? We are a small market team that is looking to compete this year and go back to the Twins Way for the next 10 years. The Twins have and will only be = good year in and year out = when they utilize the Draft and Trades. The Angels were never truly "in it" despite the rookie excitement of Trout. My advice is TRUST T.R. and see where he takes us in the next 2-3 years? Hard to do for a spoiled group of fans who have been the best small market team in MLB over the last 20+ years (thru draft & trades). Allow the train to get back on track and get to MN on time or you will derail it again and for good!!

#6 Highabove

Highabove

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 588 posts

Posted 11 January 2013 - 02:29 AM

Are we back to being a Small Market Team?

I must have missed the Memo.

#7 snepp

snepp

    Curve Hanger

  • Twins Mods
  • 4,242 posts
  • LocationSioux Falls

Posted 11 January 2013 - 02:32 AM

Are we back to being a Small Market Team?.


Apparently, because that fits the "defend the front office for the continually plunging payroll" narrative.

#8 Grady Kruse

Grady Kruse

    Junior Member

  • Members
  • 11 posts

Posted 11 January 2013 - 05:16 AM

I hate to defend Terry Ryan because I'm as frustrated as you guys are, but I think he had every intention of signing better starting pitchers. The market just went too high in a hurry. The Correia move was one of desperation. He figured they needed to get someone with a pulse since the other guys were too expensive for them.

#9 mike wants wins

mike wants wins

    Would Like to be More Positive

  • Members
  • 6,085 posts

Posted 11 January 2013 - 08:16 AM

The market went where the market was expected to go, when you realize every team is getting 25 million more in revenue next year. What is the baseball inflation adjusted salary relative to the dome years, anyone know?

#10 mike wants wins

mike wants wins

    Would Like to be More Positive

  • Members
  • 6,085 posts

Posted 11 January 2013 - 08:18 AM

Out if curiosity, why were the other guys too expensive? And does anyone think wages will be less in the coming years?

#11 zenser

zenser

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 205 posts

Posted 11 January 2013 - 08:28 AM

[quote name='lightfoot789'] The Angels were never truly "in it" despite the rookie excitement of Trout. QUOTE] They were 2 back in the wild card on Sept 24 with 9 games to play. They were playing very meaningful games in September.

#12 Jim Crikket

Jim Crikket

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 1,134 posts

Posted 11 January 2013 - 08:29 AM

Yeah, I've pretty much reached the "it is what it is, so let's move on and see what happens" stage of the offseason, but for anyone to still be referring to the Twins as "small market" is kind of sad. The Twins were NEVER "small market". The Twin Cities are, by pretty much any measure among MLB cities, "middle market," and have been for ages. They were a mid-market team that had small-market-like revenue streams and thus had to operate like a small market team. Those days are over. They are now officially a middle market team with middle market revenues... that has apparently resumed operating as a small market team with Terry Ryan's re-emergence as GM. I also think it's absurd to suggest that the only option to what we've seen this off-season was to be the 2012 Angels and throw money down a drain.

Grady may well be right about Ryan genuinely wanting to get better pitchers initially. But the whole idea of prices escalating beyond expectations would only be accurate if the Twins' expectations were absurdly unrealistic.
[COLOR=#0000cd]I opine about the Twins and Kernels regularly at[/COLOR][COLOR=#800000] Knuckleballsblog.com[/COLOR][COLOR=#0000cd] while my alter ego, SD Buhr covers the Kernels for [/COLOR][COLOR=#0000cd][COLOR=#800000]MetroSportsReport.com[/COLOR][/COLOR][COLOR=#0000cd].[/COLOR] [COLOR=#0000cd]
[/COLOR]

[COLOR=#b22222]~You can get anything you want at Alice's Restaurant~[/COLOR]

#13 Knotholemike

Knotholemike

    Member

  • Members
  • 35 posts

Posted 11 January 2013 - 09:00 AM

Next year, Justin Morneau's 14 million will be coming off the books. This may drop the payroll into the 60's. Very little room available to sign quality Pitching.


And Blackburn's $5.5M, and Jamie Caroll, Pelfry, etc. the payroll liability for the Twins in 2014 right now is more like in the low 40s. This boggles my mind since there are no impending large arbitration awards on the horizon. The only explanation I could see is that Ryan believes none of the pitchers that got multi-year deals was worth it. I know I would feel a lot better if they signed Shaun Marcum to a 2-year deal at $8-10M per year. Clearly he has not signed because no one wants to give him a long-term contract or more money. This would not break the bank and he would be a great fit for Target Field so it is puzzling.

#14 lightfoot789

lightfoot789

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 590 posts

Posted 11 January 2013 - 09:08 AM

Small market is when Free Agents don't see you as a true option. Top free agents are always hesitant to go to towns like Twins - Brewers - KC - because they don't view those cities as Major entertainment type cities. Especially younger free agents. Established vets view every city as an option. Just my opinion. So yeah I believe you are viewed as Small Market in the eyes of Free Agents.

#15 Top Gun

Top Gun

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 1,253 posts

Posted 11 January 2013 - 09:10 AM

You can't expect to get pitching for nothing.

#16 ThePuck

ThePuck

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 3,232 posts

Posted 11 January 2013 - 09:23 AM

The Angels won 89 games in the toughest division in baseball last year, winning more games than our division winner, and that somehow equates to the Twins having the worst record in baseball just because neither team made the playoffs?

Edited by ThePuck, 11 January 2013 - 09:28 AM.


#17 ThePuck

ThePuck

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 3,232 posts

Posted 11 January 2013 - 09:28 AM

The market went where the market was expected to go, when you realize every team is getting 25 million more in revenue next year. What is the baseball inflation adjusted salary relative to the dome years, anyone know?


Our payroll in 2007 was a 71.4M...regular inflation makes that just under 80M today. That's where our current payroll sits. And players salaries have gone up at a higher rate than standard inflation.

#18 Seth Stohs

Seth Stohs

    Owner

  • Administrators
  • 7,469 posts

Posted 11 January 2013 - 09:29 AM

I'm not going to defend Mr. Ryan for not getting someone like Jackson at that price, but I'm good with not giving some of the contracts that have been given. And, I'm very hopeful for Liam Hendriks to take a step forward in 2013. I'm very excited to see how Kyle Gibson does as he breaks into the big leagues. Can Scott Diamond come close to duplicating his 2012 season? What do the Twins really have in Alex Meyer and Trevor May? How quickly can some of those college relievers get up here? Will Anthony Slama get a chance? There are reasons for optimism, and that's not even talking about the likes of Aaron Hicks, Oswaldo Arcia, Chris Parmelee and others. I certainly wouldn't give up on Brian Dozier at this point.

I don't think the Twins were legitimately going to compete in 2013 regardless. Detroit is too good. But I am very excited about the direction of the team. And frankly, young, talented players are much more valuable than just spending money to spend money.

Sometimes I feel like a few people would be happier if the Twins would have given Correia 2 years and $50 million because then the payroll would be back at $100 million and "at least the Pohlad's won't pocket it."

#19 old nurse

old nurse

    Member

  • Members
  • 1,720 posts

Posted 11 January 2013 - 09:36 AM

It became apparent a long time ago that no first or second tier healthy free agent would sign here. Any analysis of why an optimistic start of free agency went so horribly wrong is lacking. "I blame Terry Ryan" appears to be the call of the fans. He is the GM. Nick merely continues the rant without analysis of how things come to be and others join in.
What is the process for signing a player with the Twins? Were the Twins estimates as far off as the knowledgeable fans here were? How quickly did they react? Does Ryan have free reign to spend 90 million? I have a suspicion that the Pohlads have to approve of any contract over 5 million given how the offseason went. Does the process the Twins use hurt them in signing players? Nobody asks the players if the Twins contacted them. Maybe it is because they wouldn't trust the player to be honest with an answer if one were obtained at all. The journalists don't look for the factors involved, they just push the blame Ryan bandwagon.

To say that the Twins are a large or mid market team is to ignore the paltry money earned from cable. As the newness of the stadium wears off, the revenue streams from it will be less.

#20 Guest_USAFChief_*

Guest_USAFChief_*
  • Guests

Posted 11 January 2013 - 09:48 AM

It became apparent a long time ago that no first or second tier healthy free agent would sign here.


Repeat ridiculous talking point enough times, someone eventually might believe you.

Do you by any chance work for Fox News?

#21 ThePuck

ThePuck

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 3,232 posts

Posted 11 January 2013 - 09:48 AM

From Feb 10 interview with Jim Pohlad, Owner Jim Pohlad reiterates Minnesota Twins' desire to retain catcher Joe Mauer - ESPN

"I think Target Field puts us in better position to make sure that we have a competitive team from year to year," Pohlad said Monday. "Names will come and names will go, but overall the objective is always to have the best team on the field."

The Pohlad family has consistently followed a model of keeping the annual player payroll pegged to 50 percent of team revenue, though in rebuilding years it's fallen well below that. At the Metrodome, there wasn't as much money coming in. This year, though, the payroll will rise by roughly $30 million to a team record above $95 million.

"All new ballparks have their peaks, and I'm sure the initial years will be very good to the Twins," Pohlad said. "Then it'll be up to us to sustain it after that, but the ballpark itself I think can sustain it for a long time."

In a question-and-answer session with reporters in a conference room overlooking a snow-covered Target Field, Pohlad dismissed the notion that the team has been trying to disprove a tightfisted reputation.

"We're not trying to show people," he said. "We're trying to do what we said we're going to do."'


So, we're sitting at around 80M. did the Twins only take in 160M last year? Only project to take in 160M this year? Or was last year and this year rebuilding years where they justify dropping payroll like a stone, and make even more money? They pocket a higher percentage of money in rebuilding years. It's right there.

We've had three years in TF, the worst record in the AL the last two, dropped payroll after the 2nd season by 18M, dropped payroll by 14M after the 3rd season. Three questions:

1. What happened to: 'I'm sure the initial years will be very good for the Twins'?
2. What happened to: 'the objective is always to have the best team on the field."?
3. What happened to: '"We're trying to do what we said we're going to do."?

#22 Brock Beauchamp

Brock Beauchamp

    Owner

  • Administrators
  • 8,775 posts

Posted 11 January 2013 - 09:50 AM

I hate to defend Terry Ryan because I'm as frustrated as you guys are, but I think he had every intention of signing better starting pitchers. The market just went too high in a hurry. The Correia move was one of desperation. He figured they needed to get someone with a pulse since the other guys were too expensive for them.


What's his excuse for not going after Marcum right now? It's hard to claim that the market has been bullish on Marcum.

#23 peterb18

peterb18

    Member

  • Members
  • 87 posts

Posted 11 January 2013 - 10:00 AM

Are we back to being a Small Market Team?

I must have missed the Memo.



By all accounts the Twins are a mid-market team. This small market stuff gets old. If the Pohlads wanted a competitive team on the field there would be one. They are the ones who have to step up to the plate.

#24 lightfoot789

lightfoot789

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 590 posts

Posted 11 January 2013 - 10:37 AM

I am sorry - Mid Market Team :)
The point is that the Twins are usually a decent team in the AL central and fans can't handle a drought without wanting the GM or Coaches head. I believe that management knows what it is doing and I believe that they want a winning product on the field as much as the fans. I also believe that they probably have better insight on free agents than we do and have made the right inquiires. There might be a reason Marcum is still on the market? You don't know!!! Have some faith and trust that things will get better. Your minor league system is already one of the top 6 in the MLB. Vast improvement. Give TR a break and ride the train for a while without pretending you know more than the conductor. The Twins are on the verge of some great teams with complete control of those players for some time. FAITH PEOPLE

#25 Shane Wahl

Shane Wahl

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 4,086 posts

Posted 11 January 2013 - 10:44 AM

The market is not too high and the apologetics here are ridiculous. Nick is right to be frustrated with the (my words) lying done by Terry Ryan on behalf of the Pohlads.

#26 ThePuck

ThePuck

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 3,232 posts

Posted 11 January 2013 - 10:59 AM

I am sorry - Mid Market Team :)
The point is that the Twins are usually a decent team in the AL central and fans can't handle a drought without wanting the GM or Coaches head. I believe that management knows what it is doing and I believe that they want a winning product on the field as much as the fans. I also believe that they probably have better insight on free agents than we do and have made the right inquiires. There might be a reason Marcum is still on the market? You don't know!!! Have some faith and trust that things will get better. Your minor league system is already one of the top 6 in the MLB. Vast improvement. Give TR a break and ride the train for a while without pretending you know more than the conductor. The Twins are on the verge of some great teams with complete control of those players for some time. FAITH PEOPLE


There's a difference between faith and blind faith. We're talking about the huge difference between what we were told and what is being done. Additionally, your assumption that we're on the verge of some great teams with complete control of those players for some time is nothing but assumption. There are teams that have had high ranked systems for years that never did anything. That is because prospects are just that, prospects. All of our high ranked prospects would have to all work out for us to have a chance to have great teams, cause we won't be supplementing them with any top notch talent from outside. What are the odds that even 75% of our prospects turn out to even be starter material?

I'm glad you're an optimist, but I don't think you need to rail on people having discussion in the negative about how things are going as if you know for sure how things will be in a few years to come.

#27 Jim Crikket

Jim Crikket

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 1,134 posts

Posted 11 January 2013 - 11:13 AM

I just don't get the "either - or" mentality of some folks. Sure, the minor league talent coming up is better than it has been for a long time and there's cause for optimism about many of the young players. But why the hell does that mean the Twins should be allowed to put a crappy product on the field in the mean time without being called on it? The Pohlad quotes that ThePuck posted SHOULD be followed up on by media with ownership... but they won't be. I don't think it's at all unreasonable for the fan base to question Twins ownership and management, given how things have unfolded. There is absolutely no excuse for the Twins to be once again putting a minor league level product on the field this season. If the only way that Terry Ryan knows how to put a competitive team on the field is to spend 4-5 years developing one up through the minor league organization, then perhaps he should be replaced by a GM who is capable of blending development with integration of quality free agents. He has not delivered on Pohlad's on-the-record promises.
[COLOR=#0000cd]I opine about the Twins and Kernels regularly at[/COLOR][COLOR=#800000] Knuckleballsblog.com[/COLOR][COLOR=#0000cd] while my alter ego, SD Buhr covers the Kernels for [/COLOR][COLOR=#0000cd][COLOR=#800000]MetroSportsReport.com[/COLOR][/COLOR][COLOR=#0000cd].[/COLOR] [COLOR=#0000cd]
[/COLOR]

[COLOR=#b22222]~You can get anything you want at Alice's Restaurant~[/COLOR]

#28 Boom Boom

Boom Boom

    Hydraulic Choppers

  • Members
  • 1,118 posts

Posted 11 January 2013 - 11:13 AM

It's ironic how Mackey put it in that article - the Twins won't overpromise and underdeliver in 2013. I know he's referring to the product on the field, but overpromising and underdelivering is exactly how TR has handled this offseason.

#29 johnnydakota

johnnydakota

    Banned

  • Banned
  • 1,498 posts

Posted 11 January 2013 - 11:20 AM

Marcier Izturis...we miss a chance to add this years gremlin(Carroll) and to improve the middle infield, for what? 4 million per year.Im guessing that when the season is over the Twins payroll will be closer to 70 million (73) then to 80 million, meaning that since 2011 payroll has shrunk 40 million,and once again we will have a very sub .500 season

#30 Shane Wahl

Shane Wahl

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 4,086 posts

Posted 11 January 2013 - 11:24 AM

Does it really just come down to greedy billionaires wanting more of that sweet, sweet money?