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Curse of Big Papi

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#1 AlwaysinModeration

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Posted 30 September 2020 - 04:34 PM

David Ortiz was released by the Twins in December of 2002. The Twins has just been knocked out of the ALCS by the Angels and their Rally Monkey two months earlier.

While the Twins did manage to win a game against the Yankees in 2003, they Then proceeded to lose the final three of that series, and then:

3 in 2004 (NY)
3 in 2006 (Oak)
3 in 2010 (NY)
1 in 2017 (NY)
3 in 2019 (NY)
2 in 2020 (Houston)

The Red Sox have gone on to win four titles, in 2004, 2007, 2013, and 2018. (Granted, Big Papi only played in the first three.)
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#2 spycake

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Posted 30 September 2020 - 04:49 PM

It wasn't clear from your post, but the Twins also won game 1 in 2004. Maybe the curse wasn't fully activated until the Red Sox won the World Series?

 

But even before we released Ortiz, things were not quite right in the Twins universe. The 2001 Twins (TK's last season) handled the Yankees just fine, with a 4-2 record. 2002, Gardy's first year, 0-6 including this crazy game:

 

https://www.baseball...200205170.shtml

 

That 2002 playoff series win came against Oakland, which is only a slightly less cursed franchise in 21st century baseball (they haven't won a series except against us in 2006).

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#3 notoriousgod71

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Posted 30 September 2020 - 05:06 PM

The saddest part of it all is that I have not actually even expected us to win since 2006.

 

Even holding home field in 2010 I had no illusions. Even winning 101 games I had no hope. Even playing a sub-.500 team I knew they would lose.

 

At this point I'm not sure what scenario would give me confidence the Twins could win even a single game.


#4 spycake

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Posted 30 September 2020 - 06:17 PM

At this point I'm not sure what scenario would give me confidence the Twins could win even a single game.

Maybe if no one tells them it's a postseason game? We should sequester the team in 2021 too and just tell them the regular season extends into October.
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#5 gunnarthor

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Posted 30 September 2020 - 07:48 PM

For crying out loud. There are a lot of issues but releasing a 27 year old DH only player who was 18th on the team in WAR who later roided up in a hitters park isn't one of them.


#6 spycake

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Posted 30 September 2020 - 08:45 PM

For crying out loud. There are a lot of issues but releasing a 27 year old DH only player who was 18th on the team in WAR who later roided up in a hitters park isn't one of them.


I don’t think Twins fans should be dismissing anyone as a “DH only player” when the franchise largely had a gaping hole at the spot after he left, at least until 2019 (with the exception of the limited games Thome was able to play in 2010).

Ortiz wasn’t a sure thing for the Twins, but he was among the best hitters in baseball in the second half of 2002. And we decidedly to go solely with Matt Lecroy going forward instead, to shave about 3% off our payroll.

And while it is rumored that Ortiz was among those that tested postive in supposedly anonymous 2003 survey tests, MLB instituted non-anonymous penalties for failed drug tests in 2005 and Ortiz never failed a test through the end of his career in 2016.
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#7 AlwaysinModeration

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Posted 30 September 2020 - 08:55 PM

It wasn't clear from your post, but the Twins also won game 1 in 2004. Maybe the curse wasn't fully activated until the Red Sox won the World Series?


You are right. I left out 2009 entirely.

#8 LVTwinsfan

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Posted 30 September 2020 - 08:55 PM

I think it’s the Billy Beane curse for beating them in 2002...they ruined Moneyball
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#9 spycake

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Posted 30 September 2020 - 09:05 PM

I think it’s the Billy Beane curse for beating them in 2002...they ruined Moneyball


We weren’t the first team to beat Beane’s Athletics in the postseason, and we weren’t the last either. (We are the only ones to lose a round to them so far, though.)

#10 LVTwinsfan

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Posted 01 October 2020 - 06:25 AM

We weren’t the first team to beat Beane’s Athletics in the postseason, and we weren’t the last either. (We are the only ones to lose a round to them so far, though.)

That could change today, and if it does all three teams from the “best” division in baseball will be eliminated
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#11 Dodecahedron

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Posted 01 October 2020 - 09:10 AM

There is no curse. The Twins were playing terribly, and it started in the series against the Reds.

 

I knew the Twins were cooked after watching the second Reds game. I'm betting many of us knew.

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#12 Trov

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Posted 01 October 2020 - 09:14 AM

I would not say it was a curse, but clearly there is something with this team and post season.This year we pitched fine enough to win, had we hit at all.Both games bases loaded first inning and no runs really messes with your head, like really this again.  

 

I do not know what it will take to be positive for this team in a post season again.I too have no faith we will win a game in the playoffs.Every year same thing, is talked about, this is a different team blah blah blah, but same results loss loss loss ect. 


#13 Dodecahedron

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Posted 01 October 2020 - 10:30 AM

 

This year we pitched fine enough to win, had we hit at all. 

 

Well, sorta. Like in the series v. the Reds, the pitchers were dinking around the edges of the strike zone too much and the hitters were taking too many pitches. There were good pitches to swing at.

 

Baldelli was thinking ahead too much. In the Reds series he was changing out pitchers to give people work but also rest, thinking about the long playoffs with no days off. He shot himself in the foot with the new rules for changing out pitchers when he pulled pitchers who were doing well. Baldelli stresses "never looking ahead" but this is exactly what he was doing. Bafflingly, Baldelli also did this once the playoffs started. He was not managing to win game 1, he was managing to win game 13.

 

The looks on everyone's faces also started in the Reds series. Everyone looked like they were in the waiting room to get rectal exams. Nelson Cruz looked like he would rather be dead than be playing baseball. Maybe there is a reasonable explanation, like he was posing for the next Fiona Apple album cover or something, but I doubt it. For a franchise that pats its own back on having fun while playing, there was no fun anywhere to be found. It's not just that fun was lacking, either, they looked downright depressed. They did not look nervous or businesslike, they looked like all of their dogs just died ... and this started before the playoffs.

 

What happened this week was completely predictable if you watched that last series of the year. I can't be the only person who saw this coming, though I hoped I would be wrong. There's just no way a team playing like they were is going to win in the playoffs.

 

The last time I saw a baseball team this depressed while playing was the 2011 Twins. But they finished last, not first. What the heck happened with this team?


#14 jkcarew

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Posted 01 October 2020 - 10:52 AM

I'm not a 'curses' guy...but, still I think there's a legitimate point to be made with the Ortiz topic.

 

When the Twins did what they did in 1987, it came on the heals of no post-season appearances for 17 years, no post-season series wins since...ever. And a streak of seven straight post-season losses. Kirby Puckett certainly didn't change that history on his own. It takes more than one guy to step up to win multiple playoff series in a given year. But maybe it only takes one guy to flip the pressure relief valve, and set things in motion. Ortiz maybe could have been that guy for the Twins...certainly in 2006 against Oakland? Maybe even in one of those Yankee series when it seemed we were completely overmatched?

 

I believe in that guy. And it's looking like the Twins don't have him.

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#15 Trov

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Posted 01 October 2020 - 01:07 PM

 

Well, sorta. Like in the series v. the Reds, the pitchers were dinking around the edges of the strike zone too much and the hitters were taking too many pitches. There were good pitches to swing at.

 

Baldelli was thinking ahead too much. In the Reds series he was changing out pitchers to give people work but also rest, thinking about the long playoffs with no days off. He shot himself in the foot with the new rules for changing out pitchers when he pulled pitchers who were doing well. Baldelli stresses "never looking ahead" but this is exactly what he was doing. Bafflingly, Baldelli also did this once the playoffs started. He was not managing to win game 1, he was managing to win game 13.

 

The looks on everyone's faces also started in the Reds series. Everyone looked like they were in the waiting room to get rectal exams. Nelson Cruz looked like he would rather be dead than be playing baseball. Maybe there is a reasonable explanation, like he was posing for the next Fiona Apple album cover or something, but I doubt it. For a franchise that pats its own back on having fun while playing, there was no fun anywhere to be found. It's not just that fun was lacking, either, they looked downright depressed. They did not look nervous or businesslike, they looked like all of their dogs just died ... and this started before the playoffs.

 

What happened this week was completely predictable if you watched that last series of the year. I can't be the only person who saw this coming, though I hoped I would be wrong. There's just no way a team playing like they were is going to win in the playoffs.

 

The last time I saw a baseball team this depressed while playing was the 2011 Twins. But they finished last, not first. What the heck happened with this team?

I wonder how much the bubble they had to be in, even at home the last week, was getting to them.That was one of the theories on why such huge splits road and home for teams like Twins and Yankees and others, was on the road you are locked in hotel room whenever not at ball park, it will mess with your mind.To prepare for neutral site bubble all possible playoff teams needed to start 1 week prior to playoffs to ioslate so transition quickly to bubble. 

 

Not saying they tanked because of that, but really took away the home field advantage that was there all year of getting be at your home, with all your stuff and family. 


#16 sampleSizeOfOne

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Posted 01 October 2020 - 01:36 PM

But we won a game 163...

 

Next year let's just play into the 170s.

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