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Twins developed starting pitching history since Bert

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#1 cardsfan


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Posted 21 September 2020 - 09:48 PM

Using my Cards as an example:

The only major miss of the Cards trading young developed starters since trading both Jerry Reuss and Steve Carlton before the 1972 season was Mark Mulder for Dan Haren. Mulder though winning 16 and losing 8 in 2005, but, lost 2 games against the Astros was a shell of himself as Haren had some good success in the big leagues.

The Cards last had a starter, Bob Forsch, start 30 games 5 years in a row in the late 1970's. That is a long time. We couldn't trade Lance Lynn with two more years on his contract because he needed TJ surgery by the end of season 4. Season 5 was rehab, 6 was recovery with a bad second half and 7 was worse than 6 after his FA started. He's found success in Texas. Cards couldn't trade him in time as he needs one more pitch. The Cards rehabbed Garcia to get John Gant who was 11-1 last year, but, has trouble pitching more than 5. This year Flaherty who had a 0.5 ERA in the second half last year has had one bad start and seems disgruntled because he has no leverage in salary negotiations may not want to negotiate buying out a few of his FA years which GMs like to do. Dakota Hudson has just had a arm strain who wins despite a high WHIP as a rookie last year. They traded off some young pitchers with the still developing Zac Gallen really the one we shouldn't have. Remember Bud Smith and Polanco for Scott Rolen. Or Eric Rasmussen for George Hendrick? Or the reverse JD injury proned Drew for rookie Wainwright?

So how is yours after Blyleven? Santana wasn't developed by you. Did you maximize Viola or Radke? Traded them in time? Should have realized that one of your pitchers that the fans were in love with likely was going to have arm problems like the Cardinals Lance Lynn and when the injury came couldn't trade him.

That is the game inside the game. Berrios doesn't get much noise outside Minnesota that I'm aware and he is approaching FA. Always wonder like sign him up for a couple of years after he could be a FA and then an arm injury happens and there goes two years of trying to nurse him back to what he was.

When I think of Twins pitching I think of Kaat after he won 25 as he was like a 12-11 pitcher after that year. Blyleven started a lot his first x number of years with the Twins. The year he had 9 shutouts he still lost 17 games. If you had Koufax he wouldn't have lost 17 games or Carlton, Gibson, Seaver, Maddux etc. Nolan Ryan yes he would have.

So evaluate like we should have traded this developed starter earlier or before out of baseball or we got good value in time or we had to get value because of a roster crunch and we've given him plenty of chances like the Cards up and down Marco Gonzales.

You need pitching to beat the evil empire which the Cards had in 1926 with Alexander and Gibson in 1964 as the Yankees were better. Proud to beat the Yankees 3 out of 5 though they were better in 4. I hate the Yankees too. I can't imagine losing that many playoff games in a row to them. As the 1964 Mike Shannon on the radio would say, "But, we had Gibson". You had Kyle Gibson.
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#2 helgey7212


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Posted 21 September 2020 - 11:07 PM

How was Santana not developed by the Twins?

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#3 wabene



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Posted 22 September 2020 - 04:17 AM

I read this expecting to learn something about the Twins pitching development. Alas, I guess it wasn't in the cards.
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#4 TopGunn#22



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Posted 22 September 2020 - 06:32 AM

Interesting article, but I agree with with helgay, we didn't "develop Santana in our minor league system, but we sure as heck coached him to be the pitcher he was in the big leagues.With pitching, it's hard to compare "eras."There used to be 4-man staffs and guys threw 250-300 innings a year.Even with the great strikeout pitchers like Koufax, guys didn't strike out a lot of guys back then, it was more about "pitching" and not just "velocity."Check out the strikeout numbers for guys like Palmer, Marichal, Cueller, McNally, Tommy John, Catfish Hunter, Don Sutton, etc...they were "modest" compared to today's pitchers.Hitters weren't supposed to strike out.  

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#5 dcswede


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Posted 22 September 2020 - 08:33 AM

Some interesting points, but it felt like listening to a game on a distant AM radio station (KMOX?) sometimes it's clear as a bell, but then the signal fades for a moment and you're left wondering what you missed.

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#6 Hosken Bombo Disco

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Posted 22 September 2020 - 10:11 AM

Let me present this as a “compliment sandwich” without stacking the meat in the middle too high :)

1. Cards definitely have been better developing pitching;

2. Johan Santana was most definitely developed by the Twins; he credits a minor league coach with teaching him the change up and the confidence in using it;

3. The Twins absolutely maximized Viola, getting a lot of fun years from him in the 80s culminating in a World Series ring in 1987, then trading him for important pieces that brought another championship in 1991, and Viola the person seems to be doing fine post-retirement.

4. I’d say even Radke’s career in hindsight was just fine, bridging the 90s with the 2000s passing the ace mantle to Santana and pitching his arm and heart out down the stretch in 2006

5. I’d question if the Twins even did any “developing” with Blyleven. Looks like they just made a fortunate draft pick, promoted him to the Majors at age 19, and he never looked back. (Credit to whoever scouted him; I don’t have that name handy.)

However, yes, you are correct cardsfan. The Twins will need a big pitching performance if we are to get past the Yankees.

Edited by Hosken Bombo Disco, 22 September 2020 - 10:13 AM.

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#7 Brock Beauchamp

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Posted 22 September 2020 - 11:09 AM

Yikes, this analysis is ESPN-grade superficial nonsense that uses a bunch of words to say very little.

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#8 cardsfan


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Posted 23 September 2020 - 03:29 AM

How was Santana not developed by the Twins?

Rule V. He was polished after being acquired and became one of the top pitchers for a while until the Mets ruined him.

#9 cardsfan


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Posted 23 September 2020 - 04:07 AM

Yikes, this analysis is ESPN-grade superficial nonsense that uses a bunch of words to say very little.

#10 Platoon



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Posted 23 September 2020 - 05:28 AM

I don’t think it’s unfair to say the Cards have had more success in the pitching department than the Twins, be it draft, development quality, or retention. For whatever reason the Twins have either focused more on, wisely drafted, or lucked out more on the hitting side of the game. They also have had their fair share of success in the CF area. At the same time, SS and catching seem to have been, overall, a organizational black hole with the exception of the Mauer era. 

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#11 Brock Beauchamp

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Posted 23 September 2020 - 07:18 AM


Rule V. He was polished after being acquired and became one of the top pitchers for a while until the Mets ruined him.

This is completely false. Johan's best pitch - far and away his best pitch - was his changeup, which he learned in the high minors from Bobby Cuellar.


If Johan was so developed at age 20, why did he have such a bad ERA in the minors and why was he exposed to the Rule V draft at all?

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#12 Vanimal46


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Posted 23 September 2020 - 08:40 AM

The Twins have developed tons of pitchers since Bert. Most haven’t been very good.
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#13 nicksaviking


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Posted 23 September 2020 - 10:57 AM


Rule V. He was polished after being acquired and became one of the top pitchers for a while until the Mets ruined him.


You clearly weren't watching Twins baseball in 2000. Johan Santana was the most unpolished player on a 93 loss team. They liked his potential, but he had no off speed pitch yet and he had no clue where his slider was going to end up. He didn't figure that stuff out until he went down to AAA to work with changup master Bobby Cuellar in 2002.


Every Twins fan and their grandma were yelling at the team to just get rid of the guy already, he was nowhere close to MLB ready and was easily the biggest liability in the bullpen. Also, he was just flat out awful in Houston's system. 


Also. After he figured it out, he wasn't one of the top pitchers for awhile, he was THE top pitcher.


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#14 Battle ur tail off

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Posted 23 September 2020 - 12:04 PM

Since I have been watching(mid 80s)Twins developed Viola, Santana, Radke, Berrios. If you are talking about #1-2 type guys. 


Have they done as well as the Cards and loads of other organizations? No, not even close. I feel like the Twins drafting strategy for quite some time was to take lower ceiling, higher floor type guys. That led to oodles of #4 type starters for quite a stretch. 


I also don't really understand what your post is trying to ask or say? Kind of jumbled. If you are looking for credit for the Cards organization I would say you have it. They have been one of the most successful over the years in all of baseball. 



#15 notoriousgod71


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Posted 27 September 2020 - 05:57 PM

This is an odd and meandering post.