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#1 USAFChief

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Posted 20 September 2020 - 01:32 PM

Trevor Lawrence!
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#2 Vanimal46

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Posted 20 September 2020 - 01:39 PM

Just imagine a time when, if a disaster like this happens, they could easily press the reset button at QB, HB, Head Coach, and GM. A time when all of them were on expiring contracts, and they can start a new era... That time was less than 6 months ago. And the Vikings doubled down on every single individual.

Yikes.
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#3 Mr. Brooks

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Posted 20 September 2020 - 02:10 PM

Luckily I won't have to watch any of it.
When they made a clear commitment to mediocrity (or even worse?!), I realized I have way better and more important things to care about.

Maybe someday, when they realize that Zimmer and Spielman are never taking this team anywhere, I'll come back. But, I doubt it!

#4 nicksaviking

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Posted 20 September 2020 - 02:51 PM

Trevor Lawrence!


Great looking QB class, yet I wouldn’t want Spielman or Zimmer making the decision.

Or developing any of them.

It was August when they got extended. It’s not like it was February or March, we all knew the upside down world we were in, why did they get extended when this team was so clearly in need of a fresh start? Ziggy’s got to bite the bullet and eat these contracts this offseason. I don’t care if they turn the season around and end up 10-6, they have to reset this situation.
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#5 DocBauer

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Posted 20 September 2020 - 04:05 PM

Going to re-state what I posted in the off season thread; this team is in a re-build or at least re-tool mode. Personally, I've always expected a .500 season, or slightly below. Too much talent on hand not to win at least 6 and maybe 8, IMO.

The OL is a mess, WR has big question marks. CB is being rebuilt on the fly. ST was questionable and bad once Pierce opted out.

Part of the reason they had such a big draft class is they KNEW they needed to bring in fresh talent. With projected comp picks, I think they are already looking at something like 13 or 14 picks next draft.

Not making excuses but with ZERO rookie camps or OTA's and no preseason games, the Vikings were behind the 8 ball getting ready for this season and any influx of talent.

I think they have great ownership. I think they have the best cap man in the business...though I DO question some of the contracts. Despite a few misses, I think Spielman and his scouting staff have generally done a good job acquiring talent. I think Zimmer is a solid coach who recognizes his expertise and limitations and turns over what he doesn't know well, mainly offense, to those who do. NOW, I think Kubiak COULD make a big difference fully in charge. BUT, with the aforementioned limitations in place, this offense is NOWHERE where it could end up.

I blame everyone involved for the OL. In fact, with all the missed opportunity to make changes due to covid...while I get playing it "safe"...even more I would thrown the door open and just run with young guys to build the future.

If you want to blast the Wilf's for keeping both Zimmer and Spielman instead of going with a complete re-build I'll argue with you. If you think keeping Spielman but cutting Zimmer loose...thinking he has done all he can do, and who also has a say in the draft...I'll debate you and might end up agreeing with you.

We can also debate tearing everything down from scratch but I think that would have been a mistake. Despite standard coach speak, I've never bought in to anything but a re-build or re-tool. But I think there's too much talent and potential to just blow it all up.
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#6 Mr. Brooks

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Posted 20 September 2020 - 04:07 PM

Going to re-state what I posted in the off season thread; this team is in a re-build or at least re-tool mode. Personally, I've always expected a .500 season, or slightly below. Too much talent on hand not to win at least 6 and maybe 8, IMO.

The OL is a mess, WR has big question marks. CB is being rebuilt on the fly. ST was questionable and bad once Pierce opted out.

Part of the reason they had such a big draft class is they KNEW they needed to bring in fresh talent. With projected comp picks, I think they are already looking at something like 13 or 14 picks next draft.

Not making excuses but with ZERO rookie camps or OTA's and no preseason games, the Vikings were behind the 8 ball getting ready for this season and any influx of talent.

I think they have great ownership. I think they have the best cap man in the business...though I DO question some of the contracts. Despite a few misses, I think Spielman and his scouting staff have generally done a good job acquiring talent. I think Zimmer is a solid coach who recognizes his expertise and limitations and turns over what he doesn't know well, mainly offense, to those who do. NOW, I think Kubiak COULD make a big difference fully in charge. BUT, with the aforementioned limitations in place, this offense is NOWHERE where it could end up.

I blame everyone involved for the OL. In fact, with all the missed opportunity to make changes due to covid...while I get playing it "safe"...even more I would thrown the door open and just run with young guys to build the future.

If you want to blast the Wilf's for keeping both Zimmer and Spielman instead of going with a complete re-build I'll argue with you. If you think keeping Spielman but cutting Zimmer loose...thinking he has done all he can do, and who also has a say in the draft...I'll debate you and might end up agreeing with you.

We can also debate tearing everything down from scratch but I think that would have been a mistake. Despite standard coach speak, I've never bought in to anything but a re-build or re-tool. But I think there's too much talent and potential to just blow it all up.


If ownership, the front office, and the head coach have all been in place for several years, and they are all very good at their roles, as you suggest, then why have they not accomplished anything?

Surely someone must be to blame?
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#7 DocBauer

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Posted 20 September 2020 - 05:14 PM

If ownership, the front office, and the head coach have all been in place for several years, and they are all very good at their roles, as you suggest, then why have they not accomplished anything?
Surely someone must be to blame?


Agreed. But "blame" is somewhat suggestive. Are we talking blame for this poor start and what I expect to be a .500 season at best? Or blame they haven't reached the SB yet, much less having won one?

Not that all of this happened under the ownership of the Wilf's, but when I reflect on the coaching since Green and see the results of Tice, Childress and Frazier, I am not entirely displeased with the job Zimmer has done. I think the Wilf's made some strange and bad choices early on their tenure to be sure. Can you remember the "triangle of authority" without a shudder? But since placed in charge I think Spielman and his staff have done a good job. NOBODY hits on all their picks and we all know that. The Vikings have blown their share of early picks...and bad a couple really unfortunate injuries that affected their roster and approach...but everyone has misses across the league. Since Spielman has been in charge, the Vikings roster has been amongst the room of the league in additions via the draft and rookie FA.

Let us not forget the head coach also shares in responsibility for draft selections. And I will agree their have been some combined head scratchers. Making no excuses, but when Norv Turner suddenly stepped down a couple seasons ago, I think that really affected Zimmer. And I believe he's been scrambling since then. Kubiak is so proven, I can't help but think his being fully in charge of the offense will be huge whether it be now or next season.

Or has time passed him by? I'm willing to bet not but can't say 100%.

I can object to Zimmer getting his extension, or the length of it. I can question a few choices on the staff that have been since Turner left, with the blessing of Spielman, of course. I can lament the death of a well respected OL coach and a bit of a scramble before Dennison was brought on board with Kubiak's selection. And we can continue to talk about covid and the ZERO off-season program and no preseason to build the team. And Spielman always has a say in the construction of the staff.

But if there is any true failure in the Vikings potential previous to now, or this season, I think the onus is on Zimmer. A bad FO is always the culprit at the end of the day. But I don't feel the Vikings have a bad FO. That leaves Zimmer and his scheme, his staff, his approach, his recommendations to the GM for what he wants. He may have an extension, but he may not reach the end of it.
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#8 USAFChief

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Posted 20 September 2020 - 05:20 PM

They look like the worst team in the NFL, to me.

With a head coach hopelessly tied to the notion that defense wins.

Its a passing league.

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#9 Mr. Brooks

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Posted 20 September 2020 - 07:04 PM

Agreed. But "blame" is somewhat suggestive. Are we talking blame for this poor start and what I expect to be a .500 season at best? Or blame they haven't reached the SB yet, much less having won one?

Not that all of this happened under the ownership of the Wilf's, but when I reflect on the coaching since Green and see the results of Tice, Childress and Frazier, I am not entirely displeased with the job Zimmer has done. I think the Wilf's made some strange and bad choices early on their tenure to be sure. Can you remember the "triangle of authority" without a shudder? But since placed in charge I think Spielman and his staff have done a good job. NOBODY hits on all their picks and we all know that. The Vikings have blown their share of early picks...and bad a couple really unfortunate injuries that affected their roster and approach...but everyone has misses across the league. Since Spielman has been in charge, the Vikings roster has been amongst the room of the league in additions via the draft and rookie FA.

Let us not forget the head coach also shares in responsibility for draft selections. And I will agree their have been some combined head scratchers. Making no excuses, but when Norv Turner suddenly stepped down a couple seasons ago, I think that really affected Zimmer. And I believe he's been scrambling since then. Kubiak is so proven, I can't help but think his being fully in charge of the offense will be huge whether it be now or next season.

Or has time passed him by? I'm willing to bet not but can't say 100%.

I can object to Zimmer getting his extension, or the length of it. I can question a few choices on the staff that have been since Turner left, with the blessing of Spielman, of course. I can lament the death of a well respected OL coach and a bit of a scramble before Dennison was brought on board with Kubiak's selection. And we can continue to talk about covid and the ZERO off-season program and no preseason to build the team. And Spielman always has a say in the construction of the staff.

But if there is any true failure in the Vikings potential previous to now, or this season, I think the onus is on Zimmer. A bad FO is always the culprit at the end of the day. But I don't feel the Vikings have a bad FO. That leaves Zimmer and his scheme, his staff, his approach, his recommendations to the GM for what he wants. He may have an extension, but he may not reach the end of it.


But you previously said Zimmer is a good head coach, which is it?

This team has accomplished nothing in the entire tenure of Spielman/Zimmer!

I would agree that Zimmer is the culprit over Spielman, if forced to choose one.
But then again, what forward thinking GM lets all of his cornerbacks leave, and pays big money to a running back in 2020?
Explain what Cook has contributed this season?
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#10 DocBauer

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Posted 20 September 2020 - 08:20 PM

But you previously said Zimmer is a good head coach, which is it?
This team has accomplished nothing in the entire tenure of Spielman/Zimmer!
I would agree that Zimmer is the culprit over Spielman, if forced to choose one.
But then again, what forward thinking GM lets all of his cornerbacks leave, and pays big money to a running back in 2020?
Explain what Cook has contributed this season?


Wow! You've loaded this post! Lol.

1] They haven't accomplished anything? They have won been competitive, been to the playoffs, won a couple games there. Advanced further or been to a SB, much less won one? No, not yet. But they've done nothing? I beg to differ even though there is more to accomplish. There are a lot of teams that haven't had that kind of success the past 5-6 season's.

2] Zimmer is a good coach? I think he is a good coach. I think he's done a decent to good job. Has he been great? I would argue no, not to this point. The Vikings have yet to take the next step, advancing further in to the playoffs, much less reach the SB for a shot at winning it all. And maybe he's not THE GUY. But that is yet to be determined.

Again, how do you define success or accomplishment? And I refer to their being competitive and doing well but not hitting any apex yet. As well as my previous comments. At the end of the day, the staff to run the team is up to Zimmer, even if Spielman gives his blessing. The scheme is up to Zimmer. If your ultimate level of judgement is reaching the SB or winning it, then everyone involved is a failure at this point. Same with about 26-28 teams the last 5+ years.

But believing Zimmer is a good coach but ultimately the "fall guy" responsible if they don't get better doesn't mean he's a bad coach. It just means he's good, but not great, or still learning, or maybe not the right guy. And yes, I absolutely question some of his choices from picks to players. And so, IMO, the axe, IMO, falls on him. But he HAS produced some good, competitive playoff teams. Like it or not, he now has at least one more season to show what he and his new staff can accomplish.

3] What GM let's his top 3 CB leave? I am so perplexed by thjs I can't even begin. But did you watch Rhodes last year? He was awful and argued on the sideline with coaches and teammates. I always felt Waynes was better than given credit for, but never great. And there was no way he ways worth what be got in FA, nor could the Vikings have been able to afford him. I wanted Alexander more than anyone else. But he wanted a chance to start. Despite reports he embraced his role of being a nickelback, he wanted a chance to start. He was reportedly upset he was "forced" to play the last game last season when he tweaked his knee. He never appeared to fully buy in and want to come back.

What GM would let his 3 top CB walk? Unfortunately, no apologies for Spielman needed here as I'd gladly call him out, but toast and finances and not wanting to come back make a difference. Again, we are talking a re-build/re-tool with all 3 CB in question at the same time.

4] Cook! I think they overpaid, forgetting/ignoring what the 2021 cap may be. He has played 3 seasons but only been on the field for approximately 2 full seasons. His numbers are elite and amongst the best in the NFL WHEN ON THE FIELD. I can only reference Smith and his first couple of years and what he meant to the team and what he did when he overcame injury. Imagine what Cook could do if he can remain healthy.

I think they blinked and overpaid. Period! I guess the good news is the contract, beyond the signing bonus, is at least manageable. But what he's done in 2 games with a poorly constructed re-building team is not relevant.
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#11 gunnarthor

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Posted 21 September 2020 - 12:10 AM

They'll probably go 7-9 or 8-8.


#12 Mr. Brooks

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Posted 21 September 2020 - 06:04 AM

Wow! You've loaded this post! Lol.

1] They haven't accomplished anything? They have won been competitive, been to the playoffs, won a couple games there. Advanced further or been to a SB, much less won one? No, not yet. But they've done nothing? I beg to differ even though there is more to accomplish. There are a lot of teams that haven't had that kind of success the past 5-6 season's.

2] Zimmer is a good coach? I think he is a good coach. I think he's done a decent to good job. Has he been great? I would argue no, not to this point. The Vikings have yet to take the next step, advancing further in to the playoffs, much less reach the SB for a shot at winning it all. And maybe he's not THE GUY. But that is yet to be determined.

Again, how do you define success or accomplishment? And I refer to their being competitive and doing well but not hitting any apex yet. As well as my previous comments. At the end of the day, the staff to run the team is up to Zimmer, even if Spielman gives his blessing. The scheme is up to Zimmer. If your ultimate level of judgement is reaching the SB or winning it, then everyone involved is a failure at this point. Same with about 26-28 teams the last 5+ years.

But believing Zimmer is a good coach but ultimately the "fall guy" responsible if they don't get better doesn't mean he's a bad coach. It just means he's good, but not great, or still learning, or maybe not the right guy. And yes, I absolutely question some of his choices from picks to players. And so, IMO, the axe, IMO, falls on him. But he HAS produced some good, competitive playoff teams. Like it or not, he now has at least one more season to show what he and his new staff can accomplish.

3] What GM let's his top 3 CB leave? I am so perplexed by thjs I can't even begin. But did you watch Rhodes last year? He was awful and argued on the sideline with coaches and teammates. I always felt Waynes was better than given credit for, but never great. And there was no way he ways worth what be got in FA, nor could the Vikings have been able to afford him. I wanted Alexander more than anyone else. But he wanted a chance to start. Despite reports he embraced his role of being a nickelback, he wanted a chance to start. He was reportedly upset he was "forced" to play the last game last season when he tweaked his knee. He never appeared to fully buy in and want to come back.

What GM would let his 3 top CB walk? Unfortunately, no apologies for Spielman needed here as I'd gladly call him out, but toast and finances and not wanting to come back make a difference. Again, we are talking a re-build/re-tool with all 3 CB in question at the same time.

4] Cook! I think they overpaid, forgetting/ignoring what the 2021 cap may be. He has played 3 seasons but only been on the field for approximately 2 full seasons. His numbers are elite and amongst the best in the NFL WHEN ON THE FIELD. I can only reference Smith and his first couple of years and what he meant to the team and what he did when he overcame injury. Imagine what Cook could do if he can remain healthy.

I think they blinked and overpaid. Period! I guess the good news is the contract, beyond the signing bonus, is at least manageable. But what he's done in 2 games with a poorly constructed re-building team is not relevant.


But the other 26-28 teams don't extend the GM, Head Coach, and QB. They keep looking for that right combination.

I'm not angry at the results, per se.
I'm angry that they've seen the peak that this group can collectively offer, which is mediocrity, and decided that is good enough.
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#13 Vanimal46

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Posted 21 September 2020 - 07:38 AM

They'll probably go 7-9 or 8-8.


After how they’ve looked the first 2 games it will be a miracle turnaround to get close to .500. Zimmer teams have been mostly competitive even with horrific OL play like 2016. This year I don’t know if either the offense or defense is good enough to mask all of their flaws.
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#14 gunnarthor

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Posted 21 September 2020 - 08:37 AM

 

After how they’ve looked the first 2 games it will be a miracle turnaround to get close to .500. Zimmer teams have been mostly competitive even with horrific OL play like 2016. This year I don’t know if either the offense or defense is good enough to mask all of their flaws.

You know, I was looking at their schedule and outside of Detroit and maybe Chicago (who we have trouble with) this is a pretty tough schedule. Houston isn't that good but Tennessee and Jacksonville are left from the AFC. But we also have to play Seattle, NO, GB and Tampa on the road and Carolina, Atlanta and Dallas at home. I'm not sure all of those teams are better than us but a lot of them can run the ball and that seems to be a problem for us.

 

I figure the secondary will improve - Gladney looked good at moments - but the line might be unfixable. Maybe 5 wins is more realistic. 

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#15 USAFChief

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Posted 21 September 2020 - 08:48 AM

They'll probably go 7-9 or 8-8.


That' unrealistic, IYAM.

And the worst possible outcome.

Collapse, get Lawrence, and start over.
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#16 Vanimal46

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Posted 21 September 2020 - 09:50 AM

That' unrealistic, IYAM.

And the worst possible outcome.

Collapse, get Lawrence, and start over.


Lawrence is the correct choice. Unless... There’s a generational talent at OT this year. I’m so tired of Spielman neglecting the OL year after year.

#17 gunnarthor

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Posted 21 September 2020 - 02:55 PM

Barr out for the year with pectoral injury. Sheesh. Rough season getting worse.

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#18 USAFChief

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Posted 22 September 2020 - 12:47 PM

Lawrence is the correct choice. Unless... There’s a generational talent at OT this year. I’m so tired of Spielman neglecting the OL year after year.


Left tackles don't lead teams to the SB.

If they were to pass on a potential franchise QB for a tackle I'd fire off several nasty posts on MULTIPLE websites!!1!
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#19 ashbury

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Posted 22 September 2020 - 03:17 PM

jim-mora-playoffs1.jpg

 

"What's that? Trevor Lawrence? Don't talk about Trevor Lawrence. You kiddin' me? Trevor Lawrence? I just hope we can lose a game! Another game!"

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#20 nicksaviking

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Posted 25 September 2020 - 10:18 AM

 

Left tackles don't lead teams to the SB.

If they were to pass on a potential franchise QB for a tackle I'd fire off several nasty posts on MULTIPLE websites!!1!

 

Plus, I don't trust Spielman to pick an O Lineman. This team hasn't had a Pro Bowl OL since 2012, you know how hard that is? Half the league makes the Pro Bowl these days. The Vikings used to send 2, 3sometimes 4 OL to the Pro Bowl each year, and most of those guys were found in the late rounds. 

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