Jump to content

Providing independent coverage of the Minnesota Twins.
Subscribe to Twins Daily Email
Photo

Josh Willingham+Justin Morneau for Mike Olt

  • Please log in to reply
80 replies to this topic

#21 Riverbrian

Riverbrian

    Goofy Moderator

  • Twins Mods
  • 17,320 posts
  • LocationGrand Forks, ND

Posted 13 December 2012 - 06:00 PM

River...you're supposed to agree with me, to prove the Forks stand united.


oops sorry... My bad...

Man I would love that trade... Olt to Third... Plouffe to 2B... Id even throw in Dozier to get the deal done. Could you imagine Olt at 3B and Sano at 1B down the line... Not to mention Rosario at 2B...

If that trade doesn't work... I wonder if going after pitching like Perez doesn't make sense as well.

lol... Go UND!!!

#22 johnnydakota

johnnydakota

    Banned

  • Banned
  • 1,498 posts

Posted 13 December 2012 - 06:06 PM

Ham and Justin ? I want Profar and Olt, even if we had to throw in Florimon and Harrison

#23 ScottyB

ScottyB

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 718 posts

Posted 13 December 2012 - 06:10 PM

Heck, I'd go Willingham, Morneau, $7M and Corey Williams/Matt Hauser or Matt Summers for Derek Holland and a mid level pitching or MI prospect.

#24 diehardtwinsfan

diehardtwinsfan

    Twins Moderator

  • Twins Mods
  • 11,184 posts
  • LocationThe charred ruins of BYTO

Posted 13 December 2012 - 06:15 PM

Not to say that I wouldn't like Olt, but given the team's needs, I wouldn't consider this unless it was for a high upside middle infielder or more pitching.

#25 TopGunn#22

TopGunn#22

    Member

  • Members
  • 62 posts

Posted 13 December 2012 - 07:19 PM

I think the Twins are giving up too much in this. Consider: The Rangers are a "WIN NOW" club and they no longer have Hamilton (who has just moved to a divisional rival). You offer Texas Morneau, The Hammer and a decent prospect (not a pitcher) for Olt and Holland. Texas plays in a hitters park where Morneau and The Hammer would flourish. Texas has a full rotation and Holland is on the block. If we spend not one dollar more on free agent pitchers, Holland is better than anyone we could sign. Heck, with the savings from Morneau and Willingham they could overpay for Marcum or Jackson or Sanchez. The key is what prospect do you give up? It has to be someone of value, just not a pitcher. With Parmalee at 1B and Olt at 3B why not give Plouffe a shot at 2B? With that kind of power in the infield, a gloveman like Florimon is O.K. The outfield would need both Hicks and Arcia but so what!!! With a trade like this we would have a solid rebuild in progress! We could find a corner outfielder on the market for a reasonable price. Maybe Benson would be the guy. The key is, Texas needs to WIN NOW. Why wait for Olt to develop when you could get 55 HR's and 180 rbi out of Morneau and Willingham. Finally, our starting staff in 2013 and beyond would be:
Holland
Worley
Diamond
Corriea
Gibson/Hendricks
With Meyer, May, J.O. Berrios, Wimmers, etc...in the pipeline. What top 10 Twins hitting prospect would you include in this package to get Holland and Olt???

#26 kab21

kab21

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 4,569 posts

Posted 13 December 2012 - 08:00 PM

1st - Holland was only available when the rangers were trying to sign Greinke. They didn't and now they will keep him.

2nd - It's hard to say whether or not the Rangers would do a Willy/Morneau/Olt trade but I would. No, it's not pitching but it's a really good value and currently the only hope the Twins have at 3B in the next couple of seasons (or longer considering Harrison/Sano play terrible defense) is Plouffe. I would prefer pitching but Olt is a really good prospect. There's also the theory that the Twins could spend more money in FA...

tbh - I know there is an extreme pitching need but the Twins offense starts getting a little thin until guys like Buxton, Sano, Rosario, Kepler, etc make the jump from Low A or rk ball. I wouldn't overlook Olt just because of the need for pitching. Perhaps Plouffe could play 2nd.

By midseason
C - Mauer
1B - Parmelee
2B - Plouffe?
SS - ?
3B - Olt
LF - Plouffe?
CF - Hicks
RF - Arcia
DH - Doumit

#27 glunn

glunn

    Head Moderator

  • Twins Mods
  • 8,094 posts
  • LocationBeverly Hills, CA

Posted 13 December 2012 - 11:25 PM

It seems to me that Morneau and Willingham might fetch a lot more if the Twins wait until the trade deadline is approaching.

#28 diehardtwinsfan

diehardtwinsfan

    Twins Moderator

  • Twins Mods
  • 11,184 posts
  • LocationThe charred ruins of BYTO

Posted 15 December 2012 - 04:01 PM

Again, I like Olt... but there's this kid named Sano that will be playing in A+ ball next year and AA/AAA in 2014 who last I heard was a pretty decent 3B prospect. In the mean time, there's this huge freaking vacuum of players up the middle and on the mound. I wouldnt' mind Olt in a Twins uni, but he isn't the guy we should be targeting when we trade Morneau and Willingham. The guys in Texas that we would like want are Profar, Cody Buckel, or maybe Martin Perez.

#29 Shane Wahl

Shane Wahl

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 5,960 posts

Posted 15 December 2012 - 04:19 PM

I like Olt a lot and I actually think the Rangers would go for that trade given the existence of Beltre. They also have Joey Gallo for the post-Beltre years. But I think the Twins should not be in the business of trading X number of veterans for X-1 number of prospects. I would look for Willingham to Texas and Morneau to Baltimore or something, and in that case, neither one before the deadline. Maybe Justin Grimm for Willingham? Schoop for Morneau?

#30 DaveW

DaveW

    Aaron Hicks update (5/17): .326 BA .464 OBP .616 SLG 1.080 OPS

  • Members
  • 12,753 posts
  • LocationNYC aka Aaron Hicks Ville

Posted 16 December 2012 - 01:28 AM

Again, I like Olt... but there's this kid named Sano that will be playing in A+ ball next year and AA/AAA in 2014 who last I heard was a pretty decent 3B prospect. In the mean time, there's this huge freaking vacuum of players up the middle and on the mound. I wouldnt' mind Olt in a Twins uni, but he isn't the guy we should be targeting when we trade Morneau and Willingham. The guys in Texas that we would like want are Profar, Cody Buckel, or maybe Martin Perez.


Sano's chances of sticking at 3rd base are less then 50%, him being at least an average defensive 3rd baseman is less then 30% at this point, also he is still a long ways off... period. Assuming that he is the long term answer at 3rd base at this point would be a mistake.

I love how we haven't had a legit 3rd baseman since Koskie, and suddenly some feel that a half of a season from Plouffe (I think he sticks offensively, but defense is a question), and Sano are suddenly all the depth we need.

Edited by SpiritofVodkaDave, 16 December 2012 - 01:30 AM.


#31 h2oface

h2oface

    Lifelong since '61

  • Members
  • 2,658 posts
  • LocationTralfamadore

Posted 16 December 2012 - 03:59 AM

Two valuable MLB Pros for 1 Maybe? Yuk. The trading deadline is the time for any trade involving Morneau and Willingham. Their value will be the highest and the teams questing them will be ready to give up way more than an Olt. Plus, you never know. Both Willingham and Morneau could be better than ever, Plouffe could be the player we saw before he was hurt, the pitchers could have breakout years, Hicks could be up and killing it.... you just never know. Morneau isn't done yet, and Mauer isn't either. And..... just the opposite could be happening with the team, but not the two Twins proposed. I like waiting to consider trading both. Some team will be willing to make a trade like the Revere trade.

#32 glunn

glunn

    Head Moderator

  • Twins Mods
  • 8,094 posts
  • LocationBeverly Hills, CA

Posted 16 December 2012 - 04:17 AM

Two valuable MLB Pros for 1 Maybe? Yuk. The trading deadline is the time for any trade involving Morneau and Willingham. Their value will be the highest and the teams questing them will be ready to give up way more than an Olt. Plus, you never know. Both Willingham and Morneau could be better than ever, Plouffe could be the player we saw before he was hurt, the pitchers could have breakout years, Hicks could be up and killing it.... you just never know. Morneau isn't done yet, and Mauer isn't either. And..... just the opposite could be happening with the team, but not the two Twins proposed. I like waiting to consider trading both. Some team will be willing to make a trade like the Revere trade.


I agree with all you have said and your optimism is inspiring.

#33 jokin

jokin

    Twins News Team

  • Twins News Team
  • 11,087 posts

Posted 16 December 2012 - 06:15 AM

Sano's chances of sticking at 3rd base are less then 50%, him being at least an average defensive 3rd baseman is less then 30% at this point, also he is still a long ways off... period. Assuming that he is the long term answer at 3rd base at this point would be a mistake.

I love how we haven't had a legit 3rd baseman since Koskie, and suddenly some feel that a half of a season from Plouffe (I think he sticks offensively, but defense is a question), and Sano are suddenly all the depth we need.


Sano is going to end up at 1st and Plouffe is a defensive liability wherever he plays- he has future DH written all over himself. Why is no one suggesting Mauer to move to 3rd for the remainder of his career (with Plouffe as a RH platoon bat at the position), as catching becomes more PT and problematic for Mauer over age 30? Trading your top two power hitters for one unproven, albeit legit prospect- but remember- only AA-experienced minor league corner guy is madness (Olt had a very high, Sano-like, K% at AA and Texas (33%) this year) and doesn't address the long-term crying needs of the Twins--- those being SP and MI. In order for the Twins to dig themselves out of this hole, they must use their primary trading chips to adress their critical needs, they must get Perez in any kind of trade with Texas and something else in the MI (Profar/Andrus) and perhaps give up a top OF prospect in their area of surplus to make sure it gets the deal done.

As others have noted, including me, Texas is reeling from the loss of the fan-favorite defectees and are desperate to keep pace with all the improvements made by teams in their division. They may be as willing a trade partner in need of a big splash as they have ever been in the history of their franchise right now.

Edited by jokin, 16 December 2012 - 06:36 AM.


#34 diehardtwinsfan

diehardtwinsfan

    Twins Moderator

  • Twins Mods
  • 11,184 posts
  • LocationThe charred ruins of BYTO

Posted 16 December 2012 - 08:09 AM

Sano's chances of sticking at 3rd base are less then 50%, him being at least an average defensive 3rd baseman is less then 30% at this point, also he is still a long ways off... period. Assuming that he is the long term answer at 3rd base at this point would be a mistake.

I love how we haven't had a legit 3rd baseman since Koskie, and suddenly some feel that a half of a season from Plouffe (I think he sticks offensively, but defense is a question), and Sano are suddenly all the depth we need.


Dave, no one is saying ignore the 3B problem. But to continue in your logic, we haven't had a decent middle infield since 1991, and that makes 3B look like nothing. I don't buy into your logic on Sano not sticking at 3rd. While I don't ever expect him to win any defensive hardware, he's going to get every opportunity he can to stick at 3rd, as there will be no room for him in the OF, and I'm not sure there's going to be room for him at first either.

What I am saying is that Plouffe is an acceptable stop gap for the time being and could, (if the bat is for real) be a long term fixture there until Sano is ready, at which point he can move to 2nd, but that is absolute best case. In the mean time, we still have 0 decent middle infield prospects that could be contributing by 2014 and very little in the pipeline that could be useful by 2016. If this team wants to contend in 2014-2020, they are going to need to have above average production everywhere. Olt doesn't improve that problem.

If we are going to trade with Texas, Olt isn't the target. It's Profar, Buckel, and Perez.

#35 jokin

jokin

    Twins News Team

  • Twins News Team
  • 11,087 posts

Posted 16 December 2012 - 08:29 AM

Dave, no one is saying ignore the 3B problem. But to continue in your logic, we haven't had a decent middle infield since 1991, and that makes 3B look like nothing. I don't buy into your logic on Sano not sticking at 3rd. While I don't ever expect him to win any defensive hardware, he's going to get every opportunity he can to stick at 3rd, as there will be no room for him in the OF, and I'm not sure there's going to be room for him at first either.

What I am saying is that Plouffe is an acceptable stop gap for the time being and could, (if the bat is for real) be a long term fixture there until Sano is ready, at which point he can move to 2nd, but that is absolute best case. In the mean time, we still have 0 decent middle infield prospects that could be contributing by 2014 and very little in the pipeline that could be useful by 2016. If this team wants to contend in 2014-2020, they are going to need to have above average production everywhere. Olt doesn't improve that problem.

If we are going to trade with Texas, Olt isn't the target. It's Profar, Buckel, and Perez.


I agree on your trade targets, they need 2 of 3 for this to make any sense.

But I agree with Dave on Sano. While I would love to see him work out at 3rd, based on his play and performance eval thus far, the chances of him sticking at 3rd are probably 1/3. If and when he's ready, they will make room for him at 1st or OF.

Also, don't discount Rosario as a contributor sooner rather than later, he would make for a good MI 2B combined with a very strong defensive SS possibly acquired in this trade with the Rangers.

Edited by jokin, 16 December 2012 - 08:39 AM.


#36 TopGunn#22

TopGunn#22

    Member

  • Members
  • 62 posts

Posted 16 December 2012 - 08:34 AM

I agree that pitching and middle infield need to be the focus. Remember, Koskie and Gaetti were not Gold Glover's at the same stage Sano is at. I'm not suggesting sano is a Gold Glover either, just that he could be decent. And with that bat...I also agree that Morneau could be ready to come back in a big way, and I'm expecting some regression from Willingham. It may be better to trade "The Hammer" now if the price was right and trade Morneau at the deadline (or keep him, I love the guy). I would target Andrus. Willingham and a top #15 prospect (not a pitcher) to Texas for Andrus. In Arlington, "The Hammer" just might duplicate his 2012 season. Andrus is a top of the order bat and would give us our first legit SS since Gagne. Which top #15 prospect do you guys think could make this happen?

#37 Top Gun

Top Gun

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 1,253 posts

Posted 16 December 2012 - 08:38 AM

The Twins are only a couple of players away from winning the central this year. Go Twins!

#38 kab21

kab21

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 4,569 posts

Posted 16 December 2012 - 08:40 AM

Sano will make room in the OF or 1B when he's ready. it's just unlikely that he'll stick at 3B even though he'll have a another season or two to work at 3B.

I'm not sure why the lack of MI prospects was brought up. I'm all for targeting MI prospects also. Schoop is on my list as well as Sardinas and Odor from TEX but Olt is a better prospect than any of them and if I'm trading then I'm trading for the best prospect that I could get. And it's not like the Twins are stacked at 3B.

Profar is completely off the table so please stop bringing his name up. Andrus is also unobtainable for the Twins.

#39 jokin

jokin

    Twins News Team

  • Twins News Team
  • 11,087 posts

Posted 16 December 2012 - 08:42 AM

Sano will make room in the OF or 1B when he's ready. it's just unlikely that he'll stick at 3B even though he'll have a another season or two to work at 3B.

I'm not sure why the lack of MI prospects was brought up. I'm all for targeting MI prospects also. Schoop is on my list as well as Sardinas and Odor from TEX but Olt is a better prospect than any of them and if I'm trading then I'm trading for the best prospect that I could get. And it's not like the Twins are stacked at 3B.

Profar is completely off the table so please stop bringing his name up. Andrus is also unobtainable for the Twins.


Debatable point.

#40 DaveW

DaveW

    Aaron Hicks update (5/17): .326 BA .464 OBP .616 SLG 1.080 OPS

  • Members
  • 12,753 posts
  • LocationNYC aka Aaron Hicks Ville

Posted 16 December 2012 - 08:46 AM

Profar is untouchable at this point(for the twins) and Andrus is about to get really expensive in 2 years.

You can live with slap hitting slick fielding MI, you need your 3rd baseman to smack it IMO, I wouldn't over pay just to get a MI over a superior 3rd base option.