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Article: Correia Signing is a Sad Thing

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#1 Nick Nelson

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 01:08 AM

You can view the page at http://twinsdaily.co...-is-a-Sad-Thing

#2 Shane Wahl

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 01:16 AM

[COLOR=#3E3E3E]"This is one of the most outrageous contracts in an offseason that's been full of them. It's too bad the Twins had to be the ones to sign it. They'd have been better off adding that $10 million on top of an offer to a pitcher who could actually make a difference."

That's the crucial thing right there. And I have a hard time believing that the extra money thrown at Shaun Marcum wouldn't have been enticing enough.[/COLOR]

#3 Top Gun

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 01:33 AM

Why the rush to sign him? All the rest spoken for? It seams there is alot of better pitchers lookin for jobs. Who recommend him?

#4 ScottyB

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 04:49 AM

I can't believe I'm going to say this, but the Twins would have been better off just announcing that Blackie was the next addition to the rotation. Correia is Marquis Lite and belongs in the NL. I actually believe that I have as good a shot succeeding in the rotation as a 57 year-old, overweight slob with a 48 mph fastball.

That being said, I'm feeling a whiplash from all of the good feelings that TR built up with the trades of Span and Revere, to the venom now spewing on the guy. I'm sorry that TR wasted money on Correia, but if you were a major league pitcher would you want to come here right now? Every FA starter is being overpaid, there is no question about that. Unfortunately Nick, I'm afraid that if we offered Sanchez his 6/$90M request and we were the only ones to offer that much, we'd be turned down. The same goes for Jackson, Marcum or any of the other decent options out there.

This contract reeks of desperation - this a warm body for the rotation for 2013, possibly the only one willing to sign here. TR is desperate to fill a rotation, but we probably would have been better off with a trade of Willingham and Morneau for another Worley type pitcher, and just turn the outfield over to the kiddie corps (Arcia, Hicks and Benson with Parmelee at 1B). Throw in the towel for 2013 and build for the future.

Edited by ScottyB, 11 December 2012 - 04:54 AM.


#5 SDTwinsFan

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 05:45 AM

What kills me is that this $5 million will hamper free agency again next year. I don't care what the payroll number is to an extent, but you gotta be smarter with your contracts than this! I was just thinking about how the Twins will drop Blackburn's wasted contract next offseason and now they add another!

i guess I was hoping that even if the Twins didn't sign a big name like Marcum (was never hoping for a Greinke/Haren type) they would at least avoid crap signings like this and grab some upside with a Jurrjens/Gorelanny/Karstens or just roll with any number of replacement types they already have (Deduno, Devries, etc). You can't convince me that some pitchers wouldn't jump at the chance to play in Minnesota because they would know they have a big pitcher-friendly ballpark and no other pitchers to take their rotation spot....

#6 old nurse

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 06:13 AM

People will have to realize the top tier free agents all had the same words for the Twins,
"No, thanks" even at any price. Winning draws talent.

#7 Brock Beauchamp

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 06:43 AM

I wish I had a powdered wig and a walking cane because if I did, I'd be pounding the cane on the ground shouting "Hear, Hear!" in response to this article.

#8 sorney

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 07:12 AM

I don't agree with the signing at all....but seriously, if they are having that much trouble attracting pitchers, why not just go 1 year 8 million?!?! Or something like that? Why compound the mistake by giving him 2 years? It makes zero sense to me

#9 Gernzy

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 07:35 AM

If we don't sign Marcum, or at least someone else decent, this is going to be sad.
Maybe if we have $20 million extra we'll shock everyone and sign Sanchez or Hamilton.
I bent my wookie...

#10 whosafraidofluigirussolo

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 07:53 AM

Either that Ryan actually believes a player with these attributes is worth jumping on when there are plenty of other names on the board, or that he is having so little luck attracting free agents of any caliber that he felt the need to lock up the first offer that someone – anyone – finally accepted. The GM may have feared that if he didn't act on an opportunity, he might be left with nothing.

This is where I feel like a GM has to be willing to take risk, in the form of being patient and waiting on the market. There will be pitchers of this ability level on the market in January and February and some of them will take one-year contracts.

#11 kirbyelway

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 08:04 AM

I'd rather give this guy $10 for 2 then do what the Royals did for Guthrie.

#12 Kwak

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 08:14 AM

Losing and penury gets this as a result. During the stretches of winning, the Twins never got out of character to step-up and sign an upper-tier player. That reputation has come back to bite them.

#13 mnfanforlife

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 08:20 AM

I completely agree that this signing is a sad, sad deal. Not looking forward to another Jason Marquis debacle.. Woof!

#14 mnfanforlife

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 08:28 AM

I would rather roll with these four guys, than Correia or others like him.

#15 jokin

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 08:28 AM

I wish I had a powdered wig and a walking cane because if I did, I'd be pounding the cane on the ground shouting "Hear, Hear!" in response to this article.


I like this Nick Nelson alot. He's a lot better than the other one who recently bestowed Sainthood on the Twins' GM.

#16 Brock Beauchamp

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 08:31 AM

I wish I had a powdered wig and a walking cane because if I did, I'd be pounding the cane on the ground shouting "Hear, Hear!" in response to this article.


I like this Nick Nelson alot. He's a lot better than the other one who recently bestowed Sainthood on the Twins' GM.


Nick has never been afraid to take issue with the front office. He, like me, prefers to wait until they actually do something before complaining about theoreticals.

And this was a bad move. Unfortunate, given that Ryan had just made one good move and one stellar move in the previous two weeks.

#17 jokin

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 08:32 AM

Losing and [SIZE=5][COLOR=#ff0000]penury[/COLOR][/SIZE] gets this as a result. During the stretches of winning, the Twins never got out of character to step-up and sign an upper-tier player. That reputation has come back to bite them.


This is not a penurious team any longer. They promised things would change with Target Field and they can pay to play if they chose to do so.

#18 jokin

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 08:35 AM

[quote name='Brock Beauchamp'][quote name='jokin'][quote name='Brock Beauchamp']I wish I had a powdered wig and a walking cane because if I did, I'd be pounding the cane on the ground shouting "Hear, Hear!" in response to this article.[/QUOTE]

I like this Nick Nelson alot. He's a lot better than the other one who recently bestowed Sainthood on the Twins' GM.[/QUOTE]

Nick has never been afraid to take issue with the front office. He, like me, prefers to wait until they actually do something before complaining about theoreticals.

And this was a bad move. Unfortunate, given that Ryan had just made one good move and one stellar move in the previous two weeks.[/QUOTE]

It's good to praise them when they do things right. It's also good to understand who and what you're dealing with before you look foolish for writing something so quickly, easily, obviously and predictably proven utterly wrong.

#19 gunnarthor

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 08:36 AM

Man, hard to like this move. I think criticism of Ryan has always been that he's unwilling to give long contracts to FA, especially pitchers. We knew this when he came back. Twins are going to have to get better through their farm system.

I also want to know how much payroll is limited by the Pohlads and how much is it Ryan's preference not to spend.

#20 ThePuck

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 08:39 AM

In Terry we trust?

#21 Brock Beauchamp

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 08:44 AM

It's good to praise them when they do things right. It's also good to understand who and what you're dealing with before you look foolish for writing something so quickly, easily, obviously and predictably proven utterly wrong.


Ryan has never been in this position before. He's never had much more than $10m to patch together a team in the offseason. While we all know he skews on the cheap side of the spectrum, there's no reason to think he was going to be this cheap. He has at least $20m to spend, probably more like $25-30m to spend. There's just no excuse for this type of signing unless he is still in the market for one of the decent arms on the market.

And after this signing, I'm incredibly skeptical that he's going to make a splash.

#22 gunnarthor

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 08:56 AM

It's good to praise them when they do things right. It's also good to understand who and what you're dealing with before you look foolish for writing something so quickly, easily, obviously and predictably proven utterly wrong.


Ryan has never been in this position before. He's never had much more than $10m to patch together a team in the offseason. While we all know he skews on the cheap side of the spectrum, there's no reason to think he was going to be this cheap. He has at least $20m to spend, probably more like $25-30m to spend. There's just no excuse for this type of signing unless he is still in the market for one of the decent arms on the market.

And after this signing, I'm incredibly skeptical that he's going to make a splash.


My guess, and it's only a guess, is that Ryan isn't willing to give the years to guys like Dempster, Marcum etc. The annual salary probably isn't a problem.

#23 ThePuck

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 08:59 AM

Anyone know how many of his strikeouts last year were against non-pitchers?

#24 Brock Beauchamp

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 09:10 AM

[quote name='gunnarthor'][quote name='Brock Beauchamp'][quote name='jokin']It's good to praise them when they do things right. It's also good to understand who and what you're dealing with before you look foolish for writing something so quickly, easily, obviously and predictably proven utterly wrong.[/QUOTE]

Ryan has never been in this position before. He's never had much more than $10m to patch together a team in the offseason. While we all know he skews on the cheap side of the spectrum, there's no reason to think he was going to be this cheap. He has at least $20m to spend, probably more like $25-30m to spend. There's just no excuse for this type of signing unless he is still in the market for one of the decent arms on the market.

And after this signing, I'm incredibly skeptical that he's going to make a splash.[/QUOTE]

My guess, and it's only a guess, is that Ryan isn't willing to give the years to guys like Dempster, Marcum etc. The annual salary probably isn't a problem.[/QUOTE]

Then he's not going to get a pitcher to improve the team. That's all there is to it. In this market, you can't be afraid of a three year contract or you're not going to get anyone. And given that the Twins' payroll will actually decrease next season after Morneau is gone, it's not as if a 3 year deal is going to kill the franchise.

#25 Brock Beauchamp

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 09:12 AM

Anyone know how many of his strikeouts last year were against non-pitchers?


Surprisingly, only 12 of those strikeouts came against pitchers.

Even pitchers can make contact on this guy.

#26 ThePuck

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 09:14 AM

Anyone know how many of his strikeouts last year were against non-pitchers?


Surprisingly, only 12 of those strikeouts came against pitchers.

Even pitchers can make contact on this guy.


So he strikes out batters 1-8 about as much as he strikes out pitchers...oh goody

#27 ThePuck

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 09:14 AM

Pitches to contact...ERA over 4.20 in the NL last year...very low strikeout rate, WHIP of almost 1.300. Hasn't have a good season since 2009 (where he pitched in the NL and in one of the best pitchers parks in baseball).


Will fit right in.


This is more like the Terry Ryan we know and...well...

#28 Willihammer

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 09:17 AM

I don't mean to step on your guys' work here, and I'll pull down the post if you want. But it is appropriate to the discussion I think:

From John's interview in the handbook

JB: So you’re looking to add a top of the rotation,
maybe not a number 1 guy, but maybe a number two
guy or a top half of the rotation?
TR: We’ll see. We’ll figure out how many years he’s
looking for and how many dollars they want to get.
JB: Are you willing to give multi-year deals to pitchers?
TR: You aren’t going to get a pitcher unless you give a
multi-year deal.
JB: OK. So you’re comfortable with multi-year deals,
too.
TR: How many multi-years are you looking at?
JB: Right…
TR: Are you looking at eight? I’m not.
JB: Probably not looking for eight?
TR: You’re not and I’m not.
JB: No?
TR: No. It just depends. Age, experience, health history,
mechanics, success, change in league.
JB: It sounds like you’re sitting back and seeing what in
the market comes to you, as opposed to aggressively
chasing a couple of targets.
TR: If I do that, we’ll probably be holding the bag. You
know pitching is going to go off the board. We certainly
have to be looking at it.


#29 ThePuck

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 09:19 AM

I notice that a lot of people seem to have this idea that they feel is fact. That idea being no pitcher wants to come play here.

So many people seem to want to, in a roundabout way, defend signings like this by saying (as if it's 100% fact) that no one else wants to come here so that's the best he can do. Twins just started losing. They aren't perennial doormats. Pitchers aren't coming here because Ryan doesn't value them enough to pay what the market has become, not because Minnesota is the leper colony of the US.

Most of the time, a players signs where they get the most money.

#30 Brock Beauchamp

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 09:25 AM

I don't mean to step on your guys' work here, and I'll pull down the post if you want. But it is appropriate to the discussion I think:

From John's interview in the handbook


JB: So you’re looking to add a top of the rotation,
maybe not a number 1 guy, but maybe a number two
guy or a top half of the rotation?
TR: We’ll see. We’ll figure out how many years he’s
looking for and how many dollars they want to get.
JB: Are you willing to give multi-year deals to pitchers?
TR: You aren’t going to get a pitcher unless you give a
multi-year deal.
JB: OK. So you’re comfortable with multi-year deals,
too.
TR: How many multi-years are you looking at?
JB: Right…
TR: Are you looking at eight? I’m not.
JB: Probably not looking for eight?
TR: You’re not and I’m not.
JB: No?
TR: No. It just depends. Age, experience, health history,
mechanics, success, change in league.
JB: It sounds like you’re sitting back and seeing what in
the market comes to you, as opposed to aggressively
chasing a couple of targets.
TR: If I do that, we’ll probably be holding the bag. You
know pitching is going to go off the board. We certainly
have to be looking at it.


That's fine with me. Just so long as you don't post a substantial portion of the interview (say, a page), I'm cool with posting fragments relevant to the conversation at hand.