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Chance Twins open season with 75/80m payroll??

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#1 greengoblinrulz

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Posted 09 December 2012 - 02:27 PM

First off, Im 100% a nonpayroll guy but who it's used on......dont spend JUST to spend.
That said......The team currently has its current 25 man roster @ 71.5m approx
Im 100% positive Ryan will never offer a FA pitcher more than a year. Its his cheap old schooled approach.
Twins have 3/5 of rotation set with Diamond, Worley & Hendriks all making the minimum. They will go dumpster diving on 1 yr offers for Lannan, Liriano, Corrieia, etc on low money deal to fill out the rotation......OR will they?
His mention of Duensing & Blackburn during his MLB TV interview has me thinking Nick's 5.5m will be given EVERY opportunity to get a spot. Duensing will allow the team to keep all its relievers (currently 8 with 7 spots...but if Brian starts, they dont have to make a decision there).
Per Ryan's comments, they wont spend any more on bullpen, or position players (maybe a 3B comp for Trev but that's the 13th roster spot)
The 13th position player is irrelevenat to salary as they will be minimum, as will the 4th OF & the utility guy.
Twins/Ryan will state 'they made offers to every pitcher (with EJackson/McCarthy we now know is an outright lie) & were rebuffed' but they only made offers that they knew would be turned down as has been their MO during the Ryan yrs.
IF this happens, does this bother you or are you fine with rebuilding for 2014?? If that extra $25m were to be used for future, it wouldnt bother me but it will just go into Pohlads pockets, Im sure.

#2 glunn

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Posted 09 December 2012 - 02:34 PM

If they were to use some of the "extra" money to sign another Sano or Kepler or two, I would be OK with that.

#3 Einstein

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Posted 09 December 2012 - 02:41 PM

Why should anyone buy a ticket in 2013 if they have no intention of competing in 2013? I suggest that Twins fans also save their money until 2014, then spend it.

#4 glunn

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Posted 09 December 2012 - 02:54 PM

Why should anyone buy a ticket in 2013 if they have no intention of competing in 2013? I suggest that Twins fans also save their money until 2014, then spend it.


I see your logic, but why spend money on free agents that won't make much difference? If no difference makers can be signed, why not use the money to try to sign some more Sanos and Keplers, and maybe save some for Appel or some other expensive draft pick?

#5 Einstein

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Posted 09 December 2012 - 03:08 PM

Why should anyone buy a ticket in 2013 if they have no intention of competing in 2013? I suggest that Twins fans also save their money until 2014, then spend it.


I see your logic, but why spend money on free agents that won't make much difference? If no difference makers can be signed, why not use the money to try to sign some more Sanos and Keplers, and maybe save some for Appel or some other expensive draft pick?

Do you really see that happening?

#6 nicksaviking

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Posted 09 December 2012 - 03:17 PM

People seem to be sugesting saving money for international signings and draft picks. Can't happen, teams can't spend freely there now, they are both capped.

#7 darin617

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Posted 09 December 2012 - 03:20 PM

Why should anyone buy a ticket in 2013 if they have no intention of competing in 2013? I suggest that Twins fans also save their money until 2014, then spend it.


I see your logic, but why spend money on free agents that won't make much difference? If no difference makers can be signed, why not use the money to try to sign some more Sanos and Keplers, and maybe save some for Appel or some other expensive draft pick?


Teams only get so much money to sign international players and drafted players. So there is no saving money in the budget to sign prospects. It looks like the boys are making their father seem like a generous guy towards payroll limits. At least they will be able to pocket at least $100-130M+ thank god for taxpayers to help you out.

#8 Kwak

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Posted 09 December 2012 - 03:23 PM

Why should anyone buy a ticket in 2013 if they have no intention of competing in 2013? I suggest that Twins fans also save their money until 2014, then spend it.


I see your logic, but why spend money on free agents that won't make much difference? If no difference makers can be signed, why not use the money to try to sign some more Sanos and Keplers, and maybe save some for Appel or some other expensive draft pick?

People aren't buying tickets to see the inside of the stadium, they are buying them to be entertained. There is a clear expectation (as well as the promise from the Twins) that they would provide a quality, competitive, and entertaining baseball team every season. Many fans sent a message vis `a vis the minor league team that was put on the field at the end of 2011 of "never again". The fans paid for a major league and they should see two of them--the Twins as well as their opponent. So yes, the Twins do need to spend some money and put better players on the field--even if they aren't going to qualify for post-season play!

#9 Willihammer

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Posted 09 December 2012 - 03:24 PM

When Jr says "the Twins can't give their money away," I don't believe him.

Baker 1/5.5
McCarthy 2/15.5
Blanton 2/15

The Twins could have pitched a signing bonus to all 3 equaling 50% of their 2013 salary, and they would have paid $30m next year, and only be on the hook for 15.5m in 2014.

They could have offered each an additional year of guaranteed money, incentives, no trade clauses, vesting options, whatever. They could have gotten more creative to get even 1 of these guys.

I can't believe all 3 turned down deals from the Twins that were better than what they ended up signing for.

#10 mike wants wins

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Posted 09 December 2012 - 03:29 PM

People laughed when I said they are the more subtle Marlins. Three players make more than $4MM on this roster. Three. Make Mauer's deal $10MM and they payroll is lower than in the dome. (I don't actually know the numbers, that's exaggeration for effect).

They are simply choosing not to sign players. There are plenty of good pitchers out there, they are choosing not to sign. Still hoping I'm wrong.*

*oh, and I do think signing two good pitchers would make a difference. If they get hot and lucky, they could be in it at the deadline, or encouraged to try to get players, instead of getting rid of players. If you are not going to spend in a year when your payroll is $25MM lower than last year, and the tv money is going up by $25MM next year, when are you ever going to spend? Santana and Hunter were right. The future will never come for this team, in terms of adding players. Still hoping I'm wrong.

**to answer the question, yes, it is possible they'll be under $80-85MM.

Edited by mike wants wins, 09 December 2012 - 03:31 PM.

What I just typed is probably an opinion, not a fact. I mean, I'm usually right, so you should maybe assume it is or will be a fact soon, but that's up to you. :)


#11 greengoblinrulz

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Posted 09 December 2012 - 03:34 PM

Nick Blackburn is the 4th highest paid Twins @ 5.5m
Jamey Carroll is the 5th highest paid @ 3.75m
Sad
If Brian Duensing's arbitration lands under a million.....MN could field an on field team of players with only 7 guys making over a million (no FA signings....Blackburn in AAA)....Doumit, Perk, Burton the other 3

Edited by greengoblinrulz, 09 December 2012 - 03:38 PM.


#12 YourHouseIsMyHouse

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Posted 09 December 2012 - 03:36 PM

Why should anyone buy a ticket in 2013 if they have no intention of competing in 2013? I suggest that Twins fans also save their money until 2014, then spend it.


I see your logic, but why spend money on free agents that won't make much difference? If no difference makers can be signed, why not use the money to try to sign some more Sanos and Keplers, and maybe save some for Appel or some other expensive draft pick?


If you sign players to multiyear contracts then they will make a difference in 2014. Nearly all players on the market are asking for those type of contracts. If they signed Shaun Marcum now, he's going to pitch in 2014 and beyond too.

#13 YourHouseIsMyHouse

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Posted 09 December 2012 - 03:37 PM

Nick Blackburn is the 4th highest paid Twins @ 5.5m
Jamey Carroll is the 5th highest paid @ 3.75m
Sad


Who's #1? :P

#14 glunn

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Posted 09 December 2012 - 03:38 PM

[quote name='darin617'][quote name='glunn'][quote name='Einstein']Why should anyone buy a ticket in 2013 if they have no intention of competing in 2013? I suggest that Twins fans also save their money until 2014, then spend it.[/QUOTE]

I see your logic, but why spend money on free agents that won't make much difference? If no difference makers can be signed, why not use the money to try to sign some more Sanos and Keplers, and maybe save some for Appel or some other expensive draft pick?[/QUOTE]

Teams only get so much money to sign international players and drafted players. So there is no saving money in the budget to sign prospects. It looks like the boys are making their father seem like a generous guy towards payroll limits. At least they will be able to pocket at least $100-130M+ thank god for taxpayers to help you out.[/QUOTE]

I stand corrected on the international signings -- I had forgotten about the cap. But I do hope that the Twins spend nearly all of the cap and that they be willing to spend for Appel if he is the best available starter come draft time.

As for the taxpayers, I never understood why their elected representatives did not do a better job in protecting them, except for the fact that most politicians are hacks.

#15 JB_Iowa

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Posted 09 December 2012 - 04:09 PM

As I have said in the past, I would not have a problem with the Twins "harboring" money to be used toward free agent signings in a future year BUT that is a HUGE change in their "modus operandi" and would require a DEFINITIVE STATEMENT on their part that it is in fact, what they are doing and that they will no longer be adhering to the 50% (or 52% or whatever it is) rule.

As someone mentioned above, the baseball world is changed -- there are slots for what you pay players acquired in the draft and there is a governing system for what you can spend internationally (yes, you can overspend but the penalities are much more than I ever envision the Twins being willing to pay). The one other area where I can see that a "pool" of money can be used is in the bidding system for international players (a la Yu Darvish or god forbid, Nishioka).

Reasonable fans (or taxpayers) would not (and should not) assume that any reduction in payroll will be used in the future. The Twins would have to make it clear that the monies would, in fact, be spent in the future. AND fans should use their wallets (through attendance, purchases, etc). to hold the franchise's feet to the fire.

If not, EVERY Twins fan and EVERY Minnesota taxpayer should be OUTRAGED.

Perhaps there aren't any good pitching deals that could be had but are those of you who are saying they shouldn't spend also saying that they are NO "purchases" they can use to improve this team? Are there NO Willingham-type deals to be made where you sign a player who may be valuable to you later in trades? It seems to me that there are a lot of places that this roster can be upgraded -- not just the pitching staff.

Edited by JB_Iowa, 09 December 2012 - 04:14 PM.


#16 mike wants wins

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Posted 09 December 2012 - 04:35 PM

Those saying they shouldn't spend money, what should they do with it? Pocket it? They are not likely to keep it, and use it in future years for signing bonuses, no one really thinks that, do they?

So if they do not spend it trying to make the team better, what should they do with it?

What I just typed is probably an opinion, not a fact. I mean, I'm usually right, so you should maybe assume it is or will be a fact soon, but that's up to you. :)


#17 Shane Wahl

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Posted 09 December 2012 - 04:40 PM

The main issue for me is that Blackburn's $5.5 million is coming off the books after 2013 and Morneau's $14 million is too. I am not sure about what will happen with Jamey Carroll, but that 3.75 should be gone as well. THAT ALONE almost meets the amount they would spend for 2014 on Jackson and Marcum in the second year of their contracts. The Twins are going to live off of cheap players for many years through what is now a great farm system again.

#18 Shane Wahl

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Posted 09 December 2012 - 04:42 PM

Those saying they shouldn't spend money, what should they do with it? Pocket it? They are not likely to keep it, and use it in future years for signing bonuses, no one really thinks that, do they?

So if they do not spend it trying to make the team better, what should they do with it?


Well if they don't spend it then that means they will lower ticket prices . . . oh wait, no. Greedy billionaires swindle the public into paying for a stadium and then defund the team for two years in a row? Are they REALLY going to do that?

#19 70charger

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Posted 09 December 2012 - 04:43 PM

I don't disagree with you, JB Iowa, and I as a fan and taxpayer would like some statement to the effect of "yes, our payroll is low now, but just wait and see what happens when our minor league core gets really good in 2015/16." But I strongly disagree with those who claim that they "know" that the Pohlads are just pocketing the money, or that because they used to have a low payroll back in the completely different and not-all-that-far-behind-us Metrodome years, they "must" be doing the same things now.

I cannot imagine that the entire front office and ownership of the Twins isn't adapting to the changing situation in major league baseball and the changing Twins' situation in particular. Indeed, maybe it's just smart business to have a low payroll now when expectations are at their bottom and to overspend later when we're only a piece or two away.

Unless there's some sort of conspiracy theory. Do we at TD believe the Trilateral Commission runs the world government, too?

#20 strumdatjag

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Posted 09 December 2012 - 04:45 PM

I would think that Kyle Gibson is likely to start the season in the rotation, along with Worley and Dianmond. The Twins should sign one good free agent and let Liam Hendrix, Cole DeVries, and other minor leaguers fight for the last spot in the rotation at Spring Training. I suspect that they will sign two scrap-heapers (below Jason Marquis level) and hope to catch lightning in a bottle.

#21 mike wants wins

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Posted 09 December 2012 - 04:51 PM

The main issue for me is that Blackburn's $5.5 million is coming off the books after 2013 and Morneau's $14 million is too. I am not sure about what will happen with Jamey Carroll, but that 3.75 should be gone as well. THAT ALONE almost meets the amount they would spend for 2014 on Jackson and Marcum in the second year of their contracts. The Twins are going to live off of cheap players for many years through what is now a great farm system again.


Ha, I forgot about Blackburn's money.....but I think we are just talking to each other now. Some people really think that at some point the Twins will spend money. Not sure why they think that, since there is zero evidence so far it is true, and plenty to show it is not likely. Still hoping to be wrong....

What I just typed is probably an opinion, not a fact. I mean, I'm usually right, so you should maybe assume it is or will be a fact soon, but that's up to you. :)


#22 glunn

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Posted 09 December 2012 - 05:12 PM

Something that is rarely discussed is how much are teams spending on scouting and minor league coaching. I would guess that over the long run an extra $1 million or more per year spent on these items might pay big dividends.

#23 ThePuck

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Posted 09 December 2012 - 05:24 PM

Those saying they shouldn't spend money, what should they do with it? Pocket it? They are not likely to keep it, and use it in future years for signing bonuses, no one really thinks that, do they?

So if they do not spend it trying to make the team better, what should they do with it?


Yes there are people who believe they will

#24 twinsnorth49

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Posted 09 December 2012 - 06:06 PM

I don't disagree with you, JB Iowa, and I as a fan and taxpayer would like some statement to the effect of "yes, our payroll is low now, but just wait and see what happens when our minor league core gets really good in 2015/16." But I strongly disagree with those who claim that they "know" that the Pohlads are just pocketing the money, or that because they used to have a low payroll back in the completely different and not-all-that-far-behind-us Metrodome years, they "must" be doing the same things now.

I cannot imagine that the entire front office and ownership of the Twins isn't adapting to the changing situation in major league baseball and the changing Twins' situation in particular. Indeed, maybe it's just smart business to have a low payroll now when expectations are at their bottom and to overspend later when we're only a piece or two away.

Unless there's some sort of conspiracy theory. Do we at TD believe the Trilateral Commission runs the world government, too?


I concur, only the most cynical believe that the organization doesn't have a plan beyond lining their pockets. The club could definitely be more transparent and consistent in communicating what that plan is to the fan base, but just because they don't doesn't mean there isn't one. I'd rather believe the team is carefully considering the best way to move forward, either pay a boatload of money for some good (not great) help now or keep stockpiling the cupboard and spend the money when those players graduate on some key veteran pieces.

I'm willing to accept I could be totally wrong but because I don't know any better than anyone else, I prefer the wait and see approach.

The Bilderbergs run the World Government, not the Trilateral Commission, no wait there the same thing,or are they? Conspiracy indeed.

#25 edavis0308

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Posted 09 December 2012 - 06:18 PM

All I know is that my stance is that if they insist they are going to compete next year..and they don't spend the money on a decent pitcher, I'm not spending a dime to go see them play until I actually see they are competitive. If they'd spend the money to make it look.like an effort for 2013 is in place, I'd probably buy some tickets in advance. If their roster solutions consist of the lower tier variety, I'm not forking over a dime in advance.

All this talk of people saying how the Pohlads spend their millions of dollars and how it's not our money.. well that is how I will move forward regarding my money and the team.

#26 mnfireman

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Posted 09 December 2012 - 06:37 PM

Michael Young was traded to Philadelphia. MLBTR thinks Texas may be looking for a 1B/DH type and that Olt may be available. Think Morneau would bring him?

#27 old nurse

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Posted 09 December 2012 - 06:58 PM

When Jr says "the Twins can't give their money away," I don't believe him.

Baker 1/5.5
McCarthy 2/15.5
Blanton 2/15

The Twins could have pitched a signing bonus to all 3 equaling 50% of their 2013 salary, and they would have paid $30m next year, and only be on the hook for 15.5m in 2014.

They could have offered each an additional year of guaranteed money, incentives, no trade clauses, vesting options, whatever. They could have gotten more creative to get even 1 of these guys.

I can't believe all 3 turned down deals from the Twins that were better than what they ended up signing for.


Would Baker or McCarthy starting 15-20 games make the Twins competitive in 2013? Would Blanton pitching like he has the last couple of years make the Twins competitive? Giving these players more money than what they signed for is giving money away.

#28 70charger

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Posted 09 December 2012 - 07:08 PM

I don't disagree with you, JB Iowa, and I as a fan and taxpayer would like some statement to the effect of "yes, our payroll is low now, but just wait and see what happens when our minor league core gets really good in 2015/16." But I strongly disagree with those who claim that they "know" that the Pohlads are just pocketing the money, or that because they used to have a low payroll back in the completely different and not-all-that-far-behind-us Metrodome years, they "must" be doing the same things now.

I cannot imagine that the entire front office and ownership of the Twins isn't adapting to the changing situation in major league baseball and the changing Twins' situation in particular. Indeed, maybe it's just smart business to have a low payroll now when expectations are at their bottom and to overspend later when we're only a piece or two away.

Unless there's some sort of conspiracy theory. Do we at TD believe the Trilateral Commission runs the world government, too?


I concur, only the most cynical believe that the organization doesn't have a plan beyond lining their pockets. The club could definitely be more transparent and consistent in communicating what that plan is to the fan base, but just because they don't doesn't mean there isn't one. I'd rather believe the team is carefully considering the best way to move forward, either pay a boatload of money for some good (not great) help now or keep stockpiling the cupboard and spend the money when those players graduate on some key veteran pieces.

I'm willing to accept I could be totally wrong but because I don't know any better than anyone else, I prefer the wait and see approach.

The Bilderbergs run the World Government, not the Trilateral Commission, no wait there the same thing,or are they? Conspiracy indeed.


+1

Those Bilderbergs, man. They're like the modern-day Templars.

And don't get me started on those damn Masons!

#29 greengoblinrulz

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Posted 09 December 2012 - 07:16 PM

Michael Young was traded to Philadelphia. MLBTR thinks Texas may be looking for a 1B/DH type and that Olt may be available. Think Morneau would bring him?


unfortunate....but a former MVP & multiple all star may not be enough to get Olt.

#30 Top Gun

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Posted 09 December 2012 - 07:22 PM

The Twins could have sign Zack, that would have gave them just two players over 10M in 2014. Now we will have just one and 2 more 100 loss seasons. It's just to bad that a Twins fans have to put up with this.