Jump to content

Providing independent coverage of the Minnesota Twins.
Subscribe to Twins Daily Email
Photo

How bad will the slaughter be tomorrow?

  • Please log in to reply
38 replies to this topic

#21 TheLeviathan

TheLeviathan

    Twins News Team

  • Members
  • 13,240 posts

Posted 09 December 2012 - 10:57 PM

Maybe if the Vikings had a receiver that could catch the ball on third down last week, catch a pass in the end zone on an untipped ball that hits off the receivers shoulder pads. Yes Ponder makes mistakes, but he is not even two years in and showed in the beginning of the year that he can make plays. All thus bitching about him sounds like I am back out in Madison when Rodgers was taking over for Favre.


Yeah, your argument was going really well and you topped it off with Ponder-Rodgers comp. Couldn't have finished off this string of stupidity any better. Well done sir.

#22 Willihammer

Willihammer

    Nostrombolimus

  • Members
  • 7,063 posts
  • LocationSaint Paul

Posted 10 December 2012 - 12:28 AM

Even that Aromashadou ball was a little underthrown. Has Ponder overthrown a wide out on a deep pattern all year, even once? Some people want a deep threat - I wonder if Ponder has the arm for a deep threat. He is constantly throwing behind guys on their routes.

#23 one_eyed_jack

one_eyed_jack

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 617 posts

Posted 10 December 2012 - 07:15 AM

Maybe if the Vikings had a receiver that could catch the ball on third down last week, catch a pass in the end zone on an untipped ball that hits off the receivers shoulder pads. Yes Ponder makes mistakes, but he is not even two years in and showed in the beginning of the year that he can make plays. All thus bitching about him sounds like I am back out in Madison when Rodgers was taking over for Favre.


---Yeah Rodgers is a good comp. After 2 dozen NFL starts, he was still looking increasingly clueless with each sub-100-yard passing performance, even though he had the best running back on the planet at his disposal and wasn't being asked to do much.

That was sarcasm in case you missed it.

#24 TheLeviathan

TheLeviathan

    Twins News Team

  • Members
  • 13,240 posts

Posted 10 December 2012 - 09:00 AM

---Yeah Rodgers is a good comp. After 2 dozen NFL starts, he was still looking increasingly clueless with each sub-100-yard passing performance, even though he had the best running back on the planet at his disposal and wasn't being asked to do much.

That was sarcasm in case you missed it.


Um, you forgot to blame Jarius Wright for not coming back 20 yards to catch that punt Ponder threw.

#25 DaveW

DaveW

    Aaron Hicks update (5/17): .326 BA .464 OBP .616 SLG 1.080 OPS

  • Members
  • 12,364 posts
  • LocationNYC aka Aaron Hicks Ville

Posted 10 December 2012 - 09:06 AM

The Vikings WR is terrible no doubt and needs to be addressed, but Ponder is missing these guys even we they are able to get open.

I was a bit surprised yesterday, when you have a guy struggling like Ponder why the hell were they not calling more screen passes and short passes to a guy like Rudolph? (Who has had a pretty solid season, and a very good lat 3 weeks)

Once again the defense and Peterson bailed this team out, if they want to keep winning they absolutely need to get something from Ponder these last three games.

I will give this team credit though "Just when I thought I was out, they pull me back in!"

It seems like everytime we get our hopes up they crush it, and the minute we give up on em they go out and get a big win. I know people will point to the Bears having injuries, but screw it, a dominating win over a division rival? Give me that any day of the week.

Edited by SpiritofVodkaDave, 10 December 2012 - 09:08 AM.


#26 FrodaddyG

FrodaddyG

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 536 posts

Posted 10 December 2012 - 11:50 AM

I will give this team credit though "Just when I thought I was out, they pull me back in!"

You seem surprised. I could have sworn this wasn't your first year following the Vikings, Dave.

#27 TheLeviathan

TheLeviathan

    Twins News Team

  • Members
  • 13,240 posts

Posted 10 December 2012 - 04:55 PM

You seem surprised. I could have sworn this wasn't your first year following the Vikings, Dave.


Typically Dave just hallucinates playoff contention for all Minnesota teams regardless of their actual abilities. So it was probably just lip service. :)

#28 luke829

luke829

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 325 posts
  • LocationGrand Marais

Posted 10 December 2012 - 06:28 PM

Not too sure if I want to wade back into this or not, but here goes.

While Ponder hasn't been given the opportunity to ride the bench and learn from a mentor (such as Rodgers did in Green Bay), the fact that his play makes the offense so one dimensional can only work for so long, no matter how great the star offensive player is. And as has been mentioned, the fact that he has regressed a tad only heightens the concern.

The fact that he still trots out onto the field only show how dire the QB situation is for the Vikes. An army without a good field general can only do so much.
Mastermind of the "Free Bert" sign.

#29 Twins Twerp

Twins Twerp

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 845 posts

Posted 10 December 2012 - 06:37 PM

Not a vikes fan but in north east north dakota you seem to watch alot of vike games. In all honesty...is adrian peterson the best running back of all time? No joke. I saw him in favres last year...best ever

#30 FrodaddyG

FrodaddyG

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 536 posts

Posted 10 December 2012 - 07:07 PM

The main problem with Ponder is this: When he was succeeding, they were running the simplest offense in the league. Hand to Peterson. Throw high percentage passes to Percy and the receivers. Profit.

The problem was, if he struggled, there was nowhere to go to make the offense any simpler without actually refusing to pass the ball. Percy going down didn't help matters, but that only excuses the few games he has missed. The fact is, Ponder's only success can be derived from running an offense so stupidly simple that any half-decent QB can succeed in it. Any QB that's played in the NFL should be able to complete passes against consistent 8-man fronts. That should be a given. The fact that Ponder's been hit or miss all year (with Peterson forcing defenses to stack heavily against the run) is a pretty clear indicator that he's just not good enough to make the Vikings consistently good enough to be a serious contender. Even someone as mediocre as a real game manager (the Alex Smith example) may be enough to make the Vikings legit.

#31 TheLeviathan

TheLeviathan

    Twins News Team

  • Members
  • 13,240 posts

Posted 10 December 2012 - 09:06 PM

The main problem with Ponder is this: When he was succeeding, they were running the simplest offense in the league. Hand to Peterson. Throw high percentage passes to Percy and the receivers. Profit.

The problem was, if he struggled, there was nowhere to go to make the offense any simpler without actually refusing to pass the ball. Percy going down didn't help matters, but that only excuses the few games he has missed. The fact is, Ponder's only success can be derived from running an offense so stupidly simple that any half-decent QB can succeed in it. Any QB that's played in the NFL should be able to complete passes against consistent 8-man fronts. That should be a given. The fact that Ponder's been hit or miss all year (with Peterson forcing defenses to stack heavily against the run) is a pretty clear indicator that he's just not good enough to make the Vikings consistently good enough to be a serious contender. Even someone as mediocre as a real game manager (the Alex Smith example) may be enough to make the Vikings legit.


Well said. What's amazing to me is that when Percy was healthy and it was clear Ponder couldn't throw it to him past 5 yards he was still getting the ball and getting yardage....which is uncanny. Add to that the line somehow opening huge holes against 9 man fronts with a one dimensional offense and it's amazing this team isn't getting blanked week in and week out with his current level of play. If Percy was healthy I wouldn't hesitate to say a wildcat offense with him at QB would be better than what we are currently doing. And I think the wildcat is stupid.

#32 one_eyed_jack

one_eyed_jack

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 617 posts

Posted 10 December 2012 - 09:21 PM

Speaking of the wildcat - I never thought I'd find myself typing this sentence in a jillion years - but the Vikings would have at least 1 more win, possibly more, had Tim Tebow been their starting quarterback all year.

#33 J-Dog Dungan

J-Dog Dungan

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 660 posts

Posted 10 December 2012 - 09:47 PM

Speaking of the wildcat - I never thought I'd find myself typing this sentence in a jillion years - but the Vikings would have at least 1 more win, possibly more, had Tim Tebow been their starting quarterback all year.

Maybe, but I think Webb is a fairly close comparison to Tebow, except he (Webb) is better.

#34 FrodaddyG

FrodaddyG

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 536 posts

Posted 11 December 2012 - 12:46 AM

The main problem with Ponder is this: When he was succeeding, they were running the simplest offense in the league. Hand to Peterson. Throw high percentage passes to Percy and the receivers. Profit.

The problem was, if he struggled, there was nowhere to go to make the offense any simpler without actually refusing to pass the ball. Percy going down didn't help matters, but that only excuses the few games he has missed. The fact is, Ponder's only success can be derived from running an offense so stupidly simple that any half-decent QB can succeed in it. Any QB that's played in the NFL should be able to complete passes against consistent 8-man fronts. That should be a given. The fact that Ponder's been hit or miss all year (with Peterson forcing defenses to stack heavily against the run) is a pretty clear indicator that he's just not good enough to make the Vikings consistently good enough to be a serious contender. Even someone as mediocre as a real game manager (the Alex Smith example) may be enough to make the Vikings legit.


Well said. What's amazing to me is that when Percy was healthy and it was clear Ponder couldn't throw it to him past 5 yards he was still getting the ball and getting yardage....which is uncanny. Add to that the line somehow opening huge holes against 9 man fronts with a one dimensional offense and it's amazing this team isn't getting blanked week in and week out with his current level of play. If Percy was healthy I wouldn't hesitate to say a wildcat offense with him at QB would be better than what we are currently doing. And I think the wildcat is stupid.

I'd have to go back and find the column where I saw it referenced, but I believe after 4 weeks, something like 22 of Ponder's completions were to Percy at or behind the line of scrimmage. Percy was averaging close to 10 yards per catch on those. Pretty unbelievable on the part of Percy, and would explain a fair chunk of Ponder's "impressive" early-season QB rating and completion %.

#35 DaveW

DaveW

    Aaron Hicks update (5/17): .326 BA .464 OBP .616 SLG 1.080 OPS

  • Members
  • 12,364 posts
  • LocationNYC aka Aaron Hicks Ville

Posted 11 December 2012 - 01:02 AM

The main problem with Ponder is this: When he was succeeding, they were running the simplest offense in the league. Hand to Peterson. Throw high percentage passes to Percy and the receivers. Profit.

The problem was, if he struggled, there was nowhere to go to make the offense any simpler without actually refusing to pass the ball. Percy going down didn't help matters, but that only excuses the few games he has missed. The fact is, Ponder's only success can be derived from running an offense so stupidly simple that any half-decent QB can succeed in it. Any QB that's played in the NFL should be able to complete passes against consistent 8-man fronts. That should be a given. The fact that Ponder's been hit or miss all year (with Peterson forcing defenses to stack heavily against the run) is a pretty clear indicator that he's just not good enough to make the Vikings consistently good enough to be a serious contender. Even someone as mediocre as a real game manager (the Alex Smith example) may be enough to make the Vikings legit.


You call Alex Smith a mediocre game manager, yet he has like a 105 QB rating this year and a 90 or 92 last year. In addition he is something like 18-6 in his last 24 starts. If he was on the Vikings this year we would be leading the division currently.

#36 FrodaddyG

FrodaddyG

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 536 posts

Posted 11 December 2012 - 01:56 AM

The main problem with Ponder is this: When he was succeeding, they were running the simplest offense in the league. Hand to Peterson. Throw high percentage passes to Percy and the receivers. Profit.

The problem was, if he struggled, there was nowhere to go to make the offense any simpler without actually refusing to pass the ball. Percy going down didn't help matters, but that only excuses the few games he has missed. The fact is, Ponder's only success can be derived from running an offense so stupidly simple that any half-decent QB can succeed in it. Any QB that's played in the NFL should be able to complete passes against consistent 8-man fronts. That should be a given. The fact that Ponder's been hit or miss all year (with Peterson forcing defenses to stack heavily against the run) is a pretty clear indicator that he's just not good enough to make the Vikings consistently good enough to be a serious contender. Even someone as mediocre as a real game manager (the Alex Smith example) may be enough to make the Vikings legit.


You call Alex Smith a mediocre game manager, yet he has like a 105 QB rating this year and a 90 or 92 last year. In addition he is something like 18-6 in his last 24 starts. If he was on the Vikings this year we would be leading the division currently.

QB rating isn't a cumulative stat. He's effective in the situations they call on him, (which isn't many) which is all the Vikings need. (Ponder had a really sweet QB rating for six weeks, too.) QB rating can be a fickle thing for a QB that shouldn't be asked to throw much more than 20 times a game.

Smith is obviously better than Ponder, but citing his QB rating (and W/L record, which I'd credit just as much, if not more, to his dominant defense/running game as I would to anything Smith has done) is a slight bit deceptive. Smith was on a good team the last two years, and hasn't lost games for them. Sadly, Ponder can't even do that, and the Vikes somehow managed to win a handful of games that were clearly in spite of his play, not because of it. But realistically, how many teams will be lining up for Alex Smith's services if he's available in the offseason? Only a few, because he's a game manager, and not many teams have the QB situation that's in bad enough shape that he looks like a clear upgrade.

#37 DaveW

DaveW

    Aaron Hicks update (5/17): .326 BA .464 OBP .616 SLG 1.080 OPS

  • Members
  • 12,364 posts
  • LocationNYC aka Aaron Hicks Ville

Posted 11 December 2012 - 10:38 AM

[quote name='FrodaddyG'][quote name='SpiritofVodkaDave'][quote name='FrodaddyG']The main problem with Ponder is this: When he was succeeding, they were running the simplest offense in the league. Hand to Peterson. Throw high percentage passes to Percy and the receivers. Profit.

The problem was, if he struggled, there was nowhere to go to make the offense any simpler without actually refusing to pass the ball. Percy going down didn't help matters, but that only excuses the few games he has missed. The fact is, Ponder's only success can be derived from running an offense so stupidly simple that any half-decent QB can succeed in it. Any QB that's played in the NFL should be able to complete passes against consistent 8-man fronts. That should be a given. The fact that Ponder's been hit or miss all year (with Peterson forcing defenses to stack heavily against the run) is a pretty clear indicator that he's just not good enough to make the Vikings consistently good enough to be a serious contender. Even someone as mediocre as a real game manager (the Alex Smith example) may be enough to make the Vikings legit.[/QUOTE]

You call Alex Smith a mediocre game manager, yet he has like a 105 QB rating this year and a 90 or 92 last year. In addition he is something like 18-6 in his last 24 starts. If he was on the Vikings this year we would be leading the division currently.[/QUOTE]
QB rating isn't a cumulative stat. He's effective in the situations they call on him, (which isn't many) which is all the Vikings need. (Ponder had a really sweet QB rating for six weeks, too.) QB rating can be a fickle thing for a QB that shouldn't be asked to throw much more than 20 times a game.

Smith is obviously better than Ponder, but citing his QB rating (and W/L record, which I'd credit just as much, if not more, to his dominant defense/running game as I would to anything Smith has done) is a slight bit deceptive. Smith was on a good team the last two years, and hasn't lost games for them. Sadly, Ponder can't even do that, and the Vikes somehow managed to win a handful of games that were clearly in spite of his play, not because of it. But realistically, how many teams will be lining up for Alex Smith's services if he's available in the offseason? Only a few, because he's a game manager, and not many teams have the QB situation that's in bad enough shape that he looks like a clear upgrade.[/QUOTE]
I think there will be some teams looking to bring in Smith, I really think he has some legit talent. 70% completion percentage this year, 70 QBR, had the lowest INT% in the league last year and a very low one this year as well.

He is exactly what the Vikes need. A guy who can throw the ball 25 times a game and complete 17-20 of them giving you about 200 yards a game.

I agree his "team" helped him out a bit, but his WR corp is pretty "meh", I think he is a bit better then the mediocre tag you throw out there. On this team he would be perfect, we would have certainly won the Packers, Redskins and Colts games with him(or honestly anyone) at the helm.

#38 FrodaddyG

FrodaddyG

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 536 posts

Posted 11 December 2012 - 06:59 PM

I think there will be some teams looking to bring in Smith, I really think he has some legit talent. 70% completion percentage this year, 70 QBR, had the lowest INT% in the league last year and a very low one this year as well.

He is exactly what the Vikes need. A guy who can throw the ball 25 times a game and complete 17-20 of them giving you about 200 yards a game.

I agree his "team" helped him out a bit, but his WR corp is pretty "meh", I think he is a bit better then the mediocre tag you throw out there. On this team he would be perfect, we would have certainly won the Packers, Redskins and Colts games with him(or honestly anyone) at the helm.

I'm not really disagreeing with you. Smith is far and away the type of guy the Vikes should be trying to bring in. They aren't going to find a franchise guy on the open market, but Smith can do enough to make them competitive.

I think we're only at odds over the mediocre tag. He's succeeded the most when he's had to do the least. When he's had to try and shoulder the load with a more open offense, he's been unremarkable at best and bordered on awful during his first 5-6 years. Really, if not for Harbaugh thinking he could reclaim his career, he may have been out of the league by now, or holding a clipboard somewhere (else). It's why many teams with longer-term rebuilding plans won't look at him, but someone like the Vikes (who may simply need a QB to not lose the game for them), would be wise to snap him up and hope he can keep his 70% completions on limited attempts going forward. All we're disagreeing on is the mediocre tag, which I'll stand by. He's had two respectable years for a good team that followed 6 years of that same team being terrible with him at the helm. (When he wasn't playing poorly enough to lose his job to the likes of J.T. O'Sullivan, Shaun Hill, and Trent Dilfer.)

#39 Badsmerf

Badsmerf

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 2,573 posts

Posted 12 December 2012 - 01:26 PM

Speaking of the wildcat - I never thought I'd find myself typing this sentence in a jillion years - but the Vikings would have at least 1 more win, possibly more, had Tim Tebow been their starting quarterback all year.

Maybe, but I think Webb is a fairly close comparison to Tebow, except he (Webb) is better.


No, Webb is not a fairly close comparison. Tebow has actually had sustained success and won a big playoff game on the road. Can't compare the two just because they are both athletic.
Do or do not. There is no try.