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3-2-8 Double Play by Cardinals

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#1 ashbury

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Posted 29 August 2020 - 08:24 PM

Did anyone see the rundown play that turned into a DP for the Cardinals yesterday?

 

https://mlb-cuts-dia...20_59_4000K.mp4

 

Can anyone tell (or know of a source saying) whether the catcher actually had the ball in his mitt on the first tag? He had the ball in his hand ready for a throw, since it was a rundown situation, but just before the tag his body blocks view of whether he tucked the ball into the mitt. Then after that, I can't tell when the ball is back in his hand for the eventual throw that led to the other out. I've only found one camera angle to judge by.

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#2 lecroy24fan

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Posted 29 August 2020 - 10:54 PM

He never put the ball in the glove.

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#3 spycake

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Posted 30 August 2020 - 08:58 AM

 

Can anyone tell (or know of a source saying) whether the catcher actually had the ball in his mitt on the first tag?

With a move he was able to slide the ball to the mitt for the tag, and then pivot and be ready to throw to second where Lindor was arriving.

 

https://www.stltoday...b6a2f67e79.html

 

Molina moved his hand into his glove both before and after the tag. If it was a fake, it was a pointless and incredibly risky one, as the ump, baserunner, and replay cameras could have all had a view of his hand during the tag, and I'm guessing his hand isn't large enough to completely obscure the ball. :)


#4 Channing1964

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Posted 30 August 2020 - 09:31 AM

It was a quick tag but if i was the ump i would have called the runner out. An all around smooth play by a heads up veteran.

#5 AceWrigley

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Posted 30 August 2020 - 09:52 AM

 

He never put the ball in the glove.

If i'm the runner on 3B being tagged like that, I'm running home to cross the plate and claim I was never tagged with the ball. The Indian's runner on 3B never ran home and then left the baseline.

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#6 spycake

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Posted 30 August 2020 - 10:18 AM

 

If i'm the runner on 3B being tagged like that, I'm running home to cross the plate and claim I was never tagged with the ball. The Indian's runner on 3B never ran home and then left the baseline.

I don't think that's a reasonable expectation for the baserunner in the moment, unless they actually saw the ball in the catcher's hand during the tag. They can't anticipate what might look odd to us on the TV broadcast (there may have been nothing suspicious about the play to the players or umpire on the field -- and if no one objected in real-time, I suspect that was the case).


#7 Nine of twelve

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Posted 30 August 2020 - 02:48 PM

 

He never put the ball in the glove.

Molina did put the ball in his glove for the tag. Do a frame-by-frame as Molina approaches the runner off third base. The bright white ball is clearly visible in his throwing hand. There is a frame just before he tags the runner which shows his right hand near his glove and there is no ball in it. The transfer of the ball back to his throwing hand takes place with Molina's body obscuring the view of the camera.

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#8 spycake

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Posted 30 August 2020 - 03:05 PM

Molina did put the ball in his glove for the tag. Do a frame-by-frame as Molina approaches the runner off third base. The bright white ball is clearly visible in his throwing hand. There is a frame just before he tags the runner which shows his right hand near his glove and there is no ball in it. The transfer of the ball back to his throwing hand takes place with Molina's body obscuring the view of the camera.


Yeah, but that’s just the video MLB *wants* us to see. Why don’t they show us the video of the grassy knoll? I think they are hiding the fact that there was a second catcher!
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#9 ashbury

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Posted 30 August 2020 - 03:29 PM

Yeah, but that’s just the video MLB *wants* us to see. Why don’t they show us the video of the grassy knoll? I think they are hiding the fact that there was a second catcher!

I heard they DFA'd Molina after the game, to silence him, and reinstated him today without fanfare now that the hubbub has subsided.
 

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#10 AceWrigley

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Posted 31 August 2020 - 07:08 AM

 

I don't think that's a reasonable expectation for the baserunner in the moment, unless they actually saw the ball in the catcher's hand during the tag. They can't anticipate what might look odd to us on the TV broadcast (there may have been nothing suspicious about the play to the players or umpire on the field -- and if no one objected in real-time, I suspect that was the case).

I think it's reasonable to expect players to pay attention to what is happening on the field. If not the runner, the base coach has responsibilities: if not to notice an improper tag, why the heck is he even out there? You have to pay attention to what is happening around you to be able to take advantage of situations. It's tactical, it's important, and it just might win you a game or two.


#11 spycake

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Posted 31 August 2020 - 07:59 AM

 

I think it's reasonable to expect players to pay attention to what is happening on the field. If not the runner, the base coach has responsibilities: if not to notice an improper tag, why the heck is he even out there? You have to pay attention to what is happening around you to be able to take advantage of situations. It's tactical, it's important, and it just might win you a game or two.

Sure, in general, players and coaches should pay attention. I'm not disputing that.

 

I'm saying, in this specific instance, we have no real evidence that the player or coach didn't pay attention. There was likely no reaction because everyone involved saw it was a proper tag. Just because a single TV broadcast camera angle suggests the possibility of an improper tag doesn't mean an improper tag happened or that players and coaches should be expected to act on that possibility, regardless of what they themselves see on the field.


#12 AceWrigley

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Posted 31 August 2020 - 10:57 AM

 

Sure, in general, players and coaches should pay attention. I'm not disputing that.

 

I'm saying, in this specific instance, we have no real evidence that the player or coach didn't pay attention. There was likely no reaction because everyone involved saw it was a proper tag. Just because a single TV broadcast camera angle suggests the possibility of an improper tag doesn't mean an improper tag happened or that players and coaches should be expected to act on that possibility, regardless of what they themselves see on the field.

I thought it was pretty clear that Yadi held the ball in his throwing hand while tagging the runner with his glove, not just a suggested possibility due to camera angle. I wish the current Twins' ineptitude with the bat was due to camera angle.


#13 spycake

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Posted 31 August 2020 - 11:26 AM

 

I thought it was pretty clear that Yadi held the ball in his throwing hand while tagging the runner with his glove, not just a suggested possibility due to camera angle.

Did you see more than just this one camera angle? If not, I don't see how you can think that is "pretty clear".

 

What exactly would Molina have gained by doing this? He moved his hand to his glove before the tag, and had plenty of time to do so again after the tag (with his back to the camera, in this video). It was a quick transfer but nowhere near impossible, especially for a skilled professional player like Molina (who handles baseballs on every pitch).

 

I'm also guessing that he has normal human hands and can't completely obscure a baseball in his palm. :) If he faked it, not only would the baserunner and third base ump have probably been able to see the ball in his hand during the tag, but the first base or second base ump would have likely seen it, plus replay cameras.

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#14 AceWrigley

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Posted 31 August 2020 - 01:45 PM

 

Did you see more than just this one camera angle? If not, I don't see how you can think that is "pretty clear".

 

What exactly would Molina have gained by doing this? He moved his hand to his glove before the tag, and had plenty of time to do so again after the tag (with his back to the camera, in this video). It was a quick transfer but nowhere near impossible, especially for a skilled professional player like Molina (who handles baseballs on every pitch).

 

I'm also guessing that he has normal human hands and can't completely obscure a baseball in his palm. :) If he faked it, not only would the baserunner and third base ump have probably been able to see the ball in his hand during the tag, but the first base or second base ump would have likely seen it, plus replay cameras.

You are probably right on this specific play as it looks like (after replay review from a couple of angles) that Yadi pushed the ball into his glove as he made the tag without letting go so he could prepare for a throw. Yadi is still a really good defensive catcher and one of the all-time greatest 5 defensive catchers in MLB history. I'm still running home and claiming no tag just to push the issue, but I suppose you don't over rule the Yadi on a play like that.