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Article: In Terry I Trust

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#1 Nick Nelson

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 10:54 PM

You can view the page at http://www.twinsdail...n-Terry-I-Trust

#2 Fanatic Jack

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 11:35 PM

This is a good trade for the future but it does nothing to help the team compete in 2013. You must have missed the fan forum in late September when Ryan told season ticket holders the team was going to compete in 2013 and he wanted only Major League talent in return for any trade. Ryan also said he was going to use trades to improve the roster because the free agent market was very thin. He heads into the Winter Meetings not looking to trade anybody but to sign mediocre, cheap free agents. The dumpster diving method is not going to change things next year.

#3 Otwins

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 12:12 AM

This is a good trade for the future but it does nothing to help the team compete in 2013. You must have missed the fan forum in late September when Ryan told season ticket holders the team was going to compete in 2013 and he wanted only Major League talent in return for any trade. Ryan also said he was going to use trades to improve the roster because the free agent market was very thin. He heads into the Winter Meetings not looking to trade anybody but to sign mediocre, cheap free agents. The dumpster diving method is not going to change things next year.


If they use the money that was committed to Span ( 20 million next 3 years if you include his option) to sign a quality free agent pitcher, then this move definitely could help them next year. I think the Twins next move will tell us if they are serious about next year or are starting to rebuild. Personally I hope they rebuild.

#4 h2oface

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 12:48 AM

I don't trust in Terry at all. Why should anyone? Ryan stated in September to the season ticket holders one thing, and then did another. Trustworthy? Span has first round pedigree, too, and hey, so does Levi Michael. I'll be holding my breath on that one. On top of it all...... It was Rizzo that had coveted Span for a long time. Terry Ryan folded and got taken, and left cards on the table. It turns out that regardless of the contract, as reported today at MLB Trade Rumors, that Rizzo and the Nats wanted Span more than any of the center fielders available. Ryan made the weak play. There was a takeaway not played, and an additional player to be had that Ryan was not player enough to get. Washington DID get a proven player ready to help immediately and for several years, and the Twins got a hope.

Edited by h2oface, 04 December 2012 - 01:54 PM.
corrected caps complying with a warning email


#5 Chris in Osaka

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 12:55 AM

Let's hope that Morneau and Willingham are moved next. The team, which shouldn't pretend that it can compete in 2013, must turn its attention to 2014 and beyond.

#6 kirbyelway

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 06:12 AM

i don't trust in terry at all. why should anyone? ryan stated in september to the season ticket holders one thing, and then did another. trustworthy? span has first round pedigree, too, and hey, so does levi machael. i'll be holding my breath on that one. on top of it all...... it was rizzo that had coveted span for a long time. terry ryan folded and got taken, and left cards on the table. it turns out that regardless of the contract, as reported today at mlb trade rumors, that rizzo and the nats wanted span more than any of the centerfielders available. ryan made the weak play. there was a takeaway not played, and an additional player to be had that ryan was not player enough to get. washington DID get a proven player ready to help immediately and for several years, and the twins got a hope.


Obviously you think he should be able to work miracles. Give TR some time and you will see once again why he is a winner and he has this organization on the right path.

#7 Brock Beauchamp

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 08:19 AM

Nick, you touched on a point that I mentioned a few days ago but seems to have fallen by the wayside:

I think Meyer was Ryan's target all along, dating back to last July. I think it was only after the Upton signing that Rizzo buckled to the pressure and gave up what Terry wanted for Span.

Patience is a virtue. From an outside observer, this looks to be a classic example of letting the market come to you instead of forcing the issue. And I don't think Ryan could have done much better with this move. Meyer is exactly what Twins fans have been clamoring for since Santana left.

#8 gunnarthor

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 08:27 AM

I liked the trade even if it doesn't help next years team (unless Meyer explodes in AA ball but even then it would be unlikely).

I'm also pretty sure the Twins aren't done so it's a bit early to say that Ryan isn't doing anything about 2013. It is possible that we have a repeat of last years team but I'll give Ryan time to fix the rotation.

#9 mike wants wins

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 08:30 AM

Since this is pretty much what I asked for.....no issues with the trade. But I will not trust him on free agents until he actually signs one he is competing for, for real money. Still hopeful....

#10 SpiritofVodkaDave

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 08:53 AM

This is a good trade for the future but it does nothing to help the team compete in 2013. You must have missed the fan forum in late September when Ryan told season ticket holders the team was going to compete in 2013 and he wanted only Major League talent in return for any trade. Ryan also said he was going to use trades to improve the roster because the free agent market was very thin. He heads into the Winter Meetings not looking to trade anybody but to sign mediocre, cheap free agents. The dumpster diving method is not going to change things next year.


Who cares what he said in the conference call, Ryan still plans to compete in 2013 and if he signs 2-3 FA pitchers the Twins very well could compete. I'm sure he would have preferred major league ready talent in return for Span, but like he said, any guy with an Ace like upside is basically untouchable by the time they get to the higher levels in the minors. Ryan made the best trade possible, would you have been happier if they would have traded him for some #4 at the major league level or something?

#11 twinsnorth49

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 09:04 AM

i don't trust in terry at all. why should anyone? ryan stated in september to the season ticket holders one thing, and then did another. trustworthy? span has first round pedigree, too, and hey, so does levi machael. i'll be holding my breath on that one. on top of it all...... it was rizzo that had coveted span for a long time. terry ryan folded and got taken, and left cards on the table. it turns out that regardless of the contract, as reported today at mlb trade rumors, that rizzo and the nats wanted span more than any of the centerfielders available. ryan made the weak play. there was a takeaway not played, and an additional player to be had that ryan was not player enough to get. washington DID get a proven player ready to help immediately and for several years, and the twins got a hope.


I think you need to throw some more water on your face. What cards were left on the table? Who was this additional player you speak of? What exactly are you talking about?

#12 Boom Boom

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 09:14 AM

Nick, you touched on a point that I mentioned a few days ago but seems to have fallen by the wayside:

I think Meyer was Ryan's target all along, dating back to last July. I think it was only after the Upton signing that Rizzo buckled to the pressure and gave up what Terry wanted for Span.

Patience is a virtue. From an outside observer, this looks to be a classic example of letting the market come to you instead of forcing the issue. And I don't think Ryan could have done much better with this move. Meyer is exactly what Twins fans have been clamoring for since Santana left.


Brock, it sounds like you're praising TR because of the speculation that he waited out the Nationals in order to get Meyer. We don't know what was on the table, if anything, in July. As Nick mentioned, technically Meyer couldn't be traded back then, except as a PTBNL, and I don't think TR would have traded Span for a PTBNL.

#13 gunnarthor

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 09:27 AM

Since this is pretty much what I asked for.....no issues with the trade. But I will not trust him on free agents until he actually signs one he is competing for, for real money. Still hopeful....


Willingham doesn't count?

#14 Brock Beauchamp

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 09:28 AM

Nick, you touched on a point that I mentioned a few days ago but seems to have fallen by the wayside:

I think Meyer was Ryan's target all along, dating back to last July. I think it was only after the Upton signing that Rizzo buckled to the pressure and gave up what Terry wanted for Span.

Patience is a virtue. From an outside observer, this looks to be a classic example of letting the market come to you instead of forcing the issue. And I don't think Ryan could have done much better with this move. Meyer is exactly what Twins fans have been clamoring for since Santana left.


Brock, it sounds like you're praising TR because of the speculation that he waited out the Nationals in order to get Meyer. We don't know what was on the table, if anything, in July. As Nick mentioned, technically Meyer couldn't be traded back then, except as a PTBNL, and I don't think TR would have traded Span for a PTBNL.


It's speculation but the timing is hard to deny. The Braves get better by signing the best FA center fielder and two days later, the Nats and Twins finally come to an agreement. The Twins weren't pressured to make the deal; they still had other options to deal Span. It was Rizzo feeling the heat and he's probably the one who caved.

#15 mike wants wins

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 09:33 AM

Not for me. He was not outbidding anyone for Josh, and was a payroll cut. I want to see him replace a guy with guys a lot more expensive before I believe he will spend what it takes to win. Willingham was a great sign, but it was a budget cut that they then, shockingly pocketed....when he goes out and beats another team for a free agent, then I will believe he is trying to make the team better, not just cheaper. Ymmv.

#16 Boom Boom

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 09:36 AM

[quote name='Brock Beauchamp'][quote name='Boom Boom'][quote name='Brock Beauchamp']Nick, you touched on a point that I mentioned a few days ago but seems to have fallen by the wayside:

I think Meyer was Ryan's target all along, dating back to last July. I think it was only after the Upton signing that Rizzo buckled to the pressure and gave up what Terry wanted for Span.

Patience is a virtue. From an outside observer, this looks to be a classic example of letting the market come to you instead of forcing the issue. And I don't think Ryan could have done much better with this move. Meyer is exactly what Twins fans have been clamoring for since Santana left.[/QUOTE]

Brock, it sounds like you're praising TR because of the speculation that he waited out the Nationals in order to get Meyer. We don't know what was on the table, if anything, in July. As Nick mentioned, technically Meyer couldn't be traded back then, except as a PTBNL, and I don't think TR would have traded Span for a PTBNL.[/QUOTE]

It's speculation but the timing is hard to deny. The Braves get better by signing the best FA center fielder and two days later, the Nats and Twins finally come to an agreement. The Twins weren't pressured to make the deal; they still had other options to deal Span. It was Rizzo feeling the heat and he's probably the one who caved.[/QUOTE]

You're giving TR way too much credit. The Braves signing Upton hurt the Nationals' options for obtaining a CF, certainly, but it also took the Braves out of the mix as a potential trade partner for the Twins, so it also hurt the Twins' leverage on any potential Span trade.

#17 Brock Beauchamp

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 09:39 AM

You're giving TR way too much credit. The Braves signing Upton hurt the Nationals' options for obtaining a CF, certainly, but it also took the Braves out of the mix as a potential trade partner for the Twins, so it also hurt the Twins' leverage on any potential Span trade.


I disagree. The Reds may have still been in the mix along with other teams that need OF help. I think it's a little too convenient that Upton goes to the Braves (the Nats biggest rival) and then Rizzo suddenly pulls the trigger on Span. Ryan had no reason to feel the same pressure that Rizzo was undoubtedly feeling.

Either way, the trade was not a steal for either side. It was fair value for both teams, IMO. This isn't a Pierzynski Redux.

#18 birdwatcher

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 09:42 AM

The Span/Meyer trade details are simply speculation. Why re-hash it? And it doesn't matter really.

There is a range of expectations associated with what "fixing" the 2013 team means. I'd much rather hear your opinions about what you think Ryan's expectations are for 2013, and what your own expectations are. What would satisfy you for 2013? A .500 club? More?

#19 Jim H

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 09:54 AM

Lots of interesting speculation on this. I doubt if we ever know if one side "caved" on this trade or not. It is hardly in anyone's interest to reveal that. What is true, is that it will be years before this trade can be fairly evalulated. There is a pretty chance Span will continue to be largely what he has been. Meyer could turn into an ace, a good starting pitcher, a closer, a decent reliever or never reach the majors at all.

#20 jm3319

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 10:06 AM

Not for me. He was not outbidding anyone for Josh, and was a payroll cut. I want to see him replace a guy with guys a lot more expensive before I believe he will spend what it takes to win. Willingham was a great sign, but it was a budget cut that they then, shockingly pocketed....when he goes out and beats another team for a free agent, then I will believe he is trying to make the team better, not just cheaper. Ymmv.


So if we had given Willingham something like 18M a year you would have been happier? Sounds like all you want is upgrades to the payroll and not worried about the return. Getting cheaper and better, like the Twins did by signing Willingham, is the ultimate win-win for a team.

#21 Boom Boom

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 10:07 AM

We know about as much about the Span/Meyer trade talks as we do about Terry Ryan's role in Bill Smith's regime.

#22 ThePuck

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 10:09 AM

Upton is a below average defensive CF who hits some HRs and steals some bases but he strikes out a ton and has trouble getting on base or hitting for average.

If given a choice between Span and Upton straight up, I'd take Span...when considering what they'll both be paid the next three seasons, it's Span in a freakin landslide.

#23 mike wants wins

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 10:22 AM

Not what I said. I said signing Willingham was good deal. But I also said I will believe he is trying to make the team better, not just cheaper, when he competes with other teams for players, and signs them. When he increases the payroll, then I will believe him when he says money is not an issue. But he gave that money back to the owners last year....like I also said, still hoping.

#24 twinsnorth49

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 10:36 AM

Not what I said. I said signing Willingham was good deal. But I also said I will believe he is trying to make the team better, not just cheaper, when he competes with other teams for players, and signs them. When he increases the payroll, then I will believe him when he says money is not an issue. But he gave that money back to the owners last year....like I also said, still hoping.



He gave that money back to the owners because he, rightfully, wasn't going to give Cuddyer at least 3/30, so he signed Willingham for what Cuddyer should have been worth and came out ahead. Would giving Cuddyer 3/31.5 have made you happier than signing Willingham?

#25 mike wants wins

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 10:41 AM

No, putting that money into real pitching would have though. Does no one think cutting cost had anything to do with those decisions? When he replaces guys with expensive guys, I will believe him when he says money is not an issue. You have the right to draw different conclusions from his actions than I do. I just have not, yet, seen actions that would lead me to believe him.

#26 DAM DC Twins Fans

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 11:02 AM

Lots of interesting speculation on this. I doubt if we ever know if one side "caved" on this trade or not. It is hardly in anyone's interest to reveal that. What is true, is that it will be years before this trade can be fairly evalulated. There is a pretty chance Span will continue to be largely what he has been. Meyer could turn into an ace, a good starting pitcher, a closer, a decent reliever or never reach the majors at all.


Sounds like the discussion I had this weekend with my son who is a Nats fan...this trade is a huge gamble for both teams. We have no idea what Meyer will be in 2015 (ace, closer, starter, bullpen guy, still in minors). Nats have no idea about Span--he has concussion (and other) injury history. Span gives them leverage to trade LaRoche, Morse, etc but do they hold on to them in case of injury...

Very interesting trade--I agree with Nick--rather see the Twins get a potential ace in 2015 for Span than a mediocre number 3 starter like Edwin Jackson, Joe Blanton, etc. who may (or may not) add 5 wins in 2013.

#27 birdwatcher

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 11:06 AM

Good point, Boom Boom. As a matter of fact, five dozen members of the Twins scouting and development staff played a role in Bill Smith's regime. And Ryan's. They met as a group at the end of the season, like they do every year. Despite thrylos's beliefs to the contrary, they all have cell phones and email accounts. They're probably expected to have and share their opinions. We don't have a clue as to how it all works.

Wouldn't it be fun to have access to what all these professionals have to say? But what the hell, at least we have each other.

#28 Twins Twerp

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 11:10 AM

I love the trade. Span's value will never again be as high as it is right now. He is very injury prone. Guys like Meyer are rarely traded. The Nationals were desperate and gave up a whole lot. People are mad that we are punting on next season, but it is day one of the winter meetings. We could still sign a decent pitcher or two and still compete next season. Baseball is a funny game, the winners of the offseason rarely translates to winners during the regular or post season.

#29 Boom Boom

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 11:13 AM

Good point, Boom Boom. As a matter of fact, five dozen members of the Twins scouting and development staff played a role in Bill Smith's regime. And Ryan's. They met as a group at the end of the season, like they do every year. Despite thrylos's beliefs to the contrary, they all have cell phones and email accounts. They're probably expected to have and share their opinions. We don't have a clue as to how it all works.

Wouldn't it be fun to have access to what all these professionals have to say? But what the hell, at least we have each other.


I guess we'll never know.

If you can't rip TR for something that you have no intimate knowledge of, then you probably can't praise him for that kind of thing either. Or you can do both.

#30 Brock Beauchamp

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 11:23 AM

Good point, Boom Boom. As a matter of fact, five dozen members of the Twins scouting and development staff played a role in Bill Smith's regime. And Ryan's. They met as a group at the end of the season, like they do every year. Despite thrylos's beliefs to the contrary, they all have cell phones and email accounts. They're probably expected to have and share their opinions. We don't have a clue as to how it all works.

Wouldn't it be fun to have access to what all these professionals have to say? But what the hell, at least we have each other.


I guess we'll never know.

If you can't rip TR for something that you have no intimate knowledge of, then you probably can't praise him for that kind of thing either. Or you can do both.


The obvious difference being that Ryan was in the bosses' chair for one of those moves and not the others.