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Scott Feldman, the Cubs, and how Theo Epstien is making Terry Ryan's life miserable

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#61 jokin

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 05:36 PM

Remind me the last time the Royals or Cubs were relevant?


I know in your ducky and bunny universe the Twins are on some pedestal above these teams, but I might remind you to check the standings. Past success has little to do with the future of this team and the moves they should be making with that in mind.

But that's ok....If (more likely when based on past history) Terry Ryan doesn't sign anyone and his reasoning is that none of the players were in a price range they felt "comfortable" with - just make sure you come to his defense.


He won't, he'll just act like it never happened in ducky/bunnyland, but the guy with the thing for birds sure will.

#62 jokin

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 05:37 PM

I don't care about Theo either who basically lucked into those teams (with Ortiz and Manny in the lineup)


Yeah, what a stroke of luck for rookie GM Theo Epstein, finding a dusty, forgotten, long-time Red Sock David Ortiz rotting away in a broom closet in the bowels of Fenway Park a couple of months after taking over.

Oh, wait, Epstein signed him after Ryan decided he had no use for a designated hitter who could actually hit.

But having All Stars like Dustin Pedroia, Jacoby Ellsbury, Jon Lester, and Clay Buchholz all make the team as walk-ons who just sort of showed up at spring training they way they did, Theo totally lucked out with those guys.

Hmmm. Come to think of it, he picked all of them in the first or second round of the amateur draft.

Sorry, totally meant to play along in your game of 'portray widely respected GM as lucky rube', but my examples weren't very good.


:s-instagib: Epic, utter Takedown

#63 birdwatcher

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 05:55 PM

jokin, I will be there to criticise Ryan if he fails to procure two #2-3 starters, via trade and FA signings, between now and the start of the season. I said as much earlier in this thread.

Of course, that won't stop you from predicting that I'll defend Ryan regardless, because that's just who you are.

#64 TheLeviathan

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 06:03 PM

I agree, Leviathan, that the Cubs are smart for signing Feldman and Baker. But this would ONLY make sense for the Twins if they were supplemental signings. They need two #2-3 starters. Not much need for two more #4-5 starters. Diamond is better than both those guys, and we need two guys who are better than Diamond.


Frankly, I don't see why the Twins are all that much different than the Cubs in how they should approach things. If you're waiting around to sign players better than Diamond join the rest of the league in that battle. I can appreciate what you want the team to do, just can't get on board with something I find highly unlikely to happen.

#65 Brock Beauchamp

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 06:07 PM

I agree, Leviathan, that the Cubs are smart for signing Feldman and Baker. But this would ONLY make sense for the Twins if they were supplemental signings. They need two #2-3 starters. Not much need for two more #4-5 starters. Diamond is better than both those guys, and we need two guys who are better than Diamond.


Frankly, I don't see why the Twins are all that much different than the Cubs in how they should approach things. If you're waiting around to sign players better than Diamond join the rest of the league in that battle. I can appreciate what you want the team to do, just can't get on board with something I find highly unlikely to happen.


The Cubs have more money. A lot more money.

They've spent $11.5m on two fringe starters. There's a good chance Ryan doesn't have much more than that to spend, period. I'd rather see Ryan pursue one quality guy than two short-term bums.

#66 TheLeviathan

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 06:23 PM

The Cubs have more money. A lot more money.

They've spent $11.5m on two fringe starters. There's a good chance Ryan doesn't have much more than that to spend, period. I'd rather see Ryan pursue one quality guy than two short-term bums.


That's fine - but then you have to realize the issue with this deal is not that he was overpaid, but that he wasn't what you want. That isn't what others are saying. What this indicates, without question, is that the one guy you want is going to take a LOT of money to sign. So deals like this make sense for a to make if it doesn't want to hamstring itself long-term.

Also, this team needs quantity and quality, so there is something to be said for taking low-risk moves that could pay off. These guys might both be "bums" or they could end up being solid bargains with attractive trade value for a team continuing to rebuild a bad farm.

#67 birdwatcher

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 06:24 PM

Just my opinion based on what Ryan has indicated: 1) it's very possible that Ryan DOES have the money to spend on a #2-3 FA starter, whtever market, and 2) despite his penurious past history, Ryan is very possibly highly motivated to add non-fringe ptchers as opposed to the Feldman types.

I know this flies in the face of past history, so I understand and respect the doubt and skepticism. I just believe th economics have changed enough that we could (and should) be pleasantly surprised by what Ryan does this winter. And of cours, jokinwill then sing Ryan's praises from the rooftops.

#68 jokin

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 06:33 PM

Just my opinion based on what Ryan has indicated: 1) it's very possible that Ryan DOES have the money to spend on a #2-3 FA starter, whtever market, and 2) despite his penurious past history, Ryan is very possibly highly motivated to add non-fringe ptchers as opposed to the Feldman types.

I know this flies in the face of past history, so I understand and respect the doubt and skepticism. I just believe th economics have changed enough that we could (and should) be pleasantly surprised by what Ryan does this winter. And of cours, jokinwill then sing Ryan's praises from the rooftops.


Past is Prologue. Let's just say I'm not holding my breath and expectantly warming up my vocal cords for the "praise-singing"...

#69 Top Gun

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 06:38 PM

Nothin is happen because the big guns haven't come up yet. it' just testing the waters.. Haven't any of you done auction drafts? Haven't any of you made trades? I have made thousands of them.

#70 jokin

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 06:40 PM

The Cubs have more money. A lot more money.

They've spent $11.5m on two fringe starters. There's a good chance Ryan doesn't have much more than that to spend, period. I'd rather see Ryan pursue one quality guy than two short-term bums.


That's fine - but then you have to realize the issue with this deal is not that he was overpaid, but that he wasn't what you want. That isn't what others are saying. What this indicates, without question, is that the one guy you want is going to take a LOT of money to sign. So deals like this make sense for a to make if it doesn't want to hamstring itself long-term.

Also, this team needs quantity and quality, so there is something to be said for taking low-risk moves that could pay off. These guys might both be "bums" or they could end up being solid bargains with attractive trade value for a team continuing to rebuild a bad farm.


We've gone one full year with the "new" regime and everything old is new again. Crying poor and TR competing with a torn and tattered rule book well past it's expiration date. What you are advocating for is quite logical, and was logical a year ago- and many of us proposed such an approach then. Is there any indication whatsoever that they've yet figured this out down at One Twins Way? Or is there only just one Twins way- the "penurious" path on which birdwatcher loves treading.

#71 jokin

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 06:43 PM

Nothin is happen because the big guns haven't come up yet. it' just testing the waters.. Haven't any of you done auction drafts? Haven't any of you made trades? I have made thousands of them.


TR should have spent the last 3 months getting his ducks in a row and picking off the low-hanging fruit in the month of November to show the league and the fanbase the seriousness of his intent. As another poster just said, this club needs both quantity and quality. A couple of legit, albeit lower-impact major leaguers should already be on the 2013 roster via trade or FA.

#72 jokin

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 06:51 PM

jokin, I will be there to criticise Ryan if he fails to procure two #2-3 starters, via trade and FA signings, between now and the start of the season. I said as much earlier in this thread.

Of course, that won't stop you from predicting that I'll defend Ryan regardless, because that's just who you are.


You do realize that acquiring two front-end starters with the approach this club takes is next to impossible, right? I am standing by my prediction of an ~$85M payroll. What say you? Two F/End starter acquisitions would push the payroll well past $100M. Do you really see this happening without gutting the team elsewhere on the roster? It's just not the penurious one's style now, is it?

#73 Mike Sixel

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 06:51 PM

The Twins have plenty of money, they just choose to allocate it differently than the Cubs. There is plenty of money for this payroll to be higher, they have chosen (based on last year) not to spend it on the MLB club salaries.

I don't know, it is a site to discuss sports, not airline safety.....maybe we should take it less seriously?


#74 Brock Beauchamp

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 06:53 PM

[quote name='jokin'][quote name='TheLeviathan'][quote name='Brock Beauchamp']The Cubs have more money. A lot more money.

They've spent $11.5m on two fringe starters. There's a good chance Ryan doesn't have much more than that to spend, period. I'd rather see Ryan pursue one quality guy than two short-term bums.[/QUOTE]

That's fine - but then you have to realize the issue with this deal is not that he was overpaid, but that he wasn't what you want. That isn't what others are saying. What this indicates, without question, is that the one guy you want is going to take a LOT of money to sign. So deals like this make sense for a to make if it doesn't want to hamstring itself long-term.

Also, this team needs quantity and quality, so there is something to be said for taking low-risk moves that could pay off. These guys might both be "bums" or they could end up being solid bargains with attractive trade value for a team continuing to rebuild a bad farm.[/QUOTE]

We've gone one full year with the "new" regime and everything old is new again. Crying poor and TR competing with a torn and tattered rule book well past it's expiration date. What you are advocating for is quite logical, and was logical a year ago- and many of us proposed such an approach then. Is there any indication whatsoever that they've yet figured this out down at One Twins Way? Or is there only just one Twins way- the "penurious" path on which birdwatcher loves treading.[/QUOTE]

Who's crying poor? The Cubs have more money than the Twins. That's all there is to it.

#75 jokin

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 07:00 PM

[quote name='Brock Beauchamp'][quote name='jokin'][quote name='TheLeviathan'][quote name='Brock Beauchamp']The Cubs have more money. A lot more money.

They've spent $11.5m on two fringe starters. There's a good chance Ryan doesn't have much more than that to spend, period. I'd rather see Ryan pursue one quality guy than two short-term bums.[/QUOTE]

That's fine - but then you have to realize the issue with this deal is not that he was overpaid, but that he wasn't what you want. That isn't what others are saying. What this indicates, without question, is that the one guy you want is going to take a LOT of money to sign. So deals like this make sense for a to make if it doesn't want to hamstring itself long-term.

Also, this team needs quantity and quality, so there is something to be said for taking low-risk moves that could pay off. These guys might both be "bums" or they could end up being solid bargains with attractive trade value for a team continuing to rebuild a bad farm.[/QUOTE]

We've gone one full year with the "new" regime and everything old is new again. Crying poor and TR competing with a torn and tattered rule book well past it's expiration date. What you are advocating for is quite logical, and was logical a year ago- and many of us proposed such an approach then. Is there any indication whatsoever that they've yet figured this out down at One Twins Way? Or is there only just one Twins way- the "penurious" path on which birdwatcher loves treading.[/QUOTE]

Who's crying poor? The Cubs have more money than the Twins. That's all there is to it.[/QUOTE]

I thought we fixed the "compete with the big dogs" problem with TF? Your comment sounds like we've time-traveled back to the thrilling days of the Plasti-dome Era.

#76 Kwak

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 07:00 PM

Nothin is happen because the big guns haven't come up yet. it' just testing the waters.. Haven't any of you done auction drafts? Haven't any of you made trades? I have made thousands of them.


TR should have spent the last 3 months getting his ducks in a row and picking off the low-hanging fruit in the month of November to show the league and the fanbase the seriousness of his intent. As another poster just said, this club needs both quantity and quality. A couple of legit, albeit lower-impact major leaguers should already be on the 2013 roster via trade or FA.

That Baker signed elsewhere implies either of the following to me: a) Ryan has seriously underestimated the price of starting pitching or B) every pitcher that receives "a final offer from the Twins "will immediately shop it" and sign elsewhere for slightly more, thus forcing the Twins to make "a blow-away" offer in order to sign a pitcher.

#77 Top Gun

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 07:10 PM

I have played fantasy baseball since 1973 and football since 1982 sometimes in 10 different leagues. Ryan should have made the Marlin, Jays trade but maybe he couldn't, his time will come soon.

#78 jokin

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 07:14 PM

[quote name='Kwak'][quote name='jokin'][quote name='Top Gun']Nothin is happen because the big guns haven't come up yet. it' just testing the waters.. Haven't any of you done auction drafts? Haven't any of you made trades? I have made thousands of them.[/QUOTE]

TR should have spent the last 3 months getting his ducks in a row and picking off the low-hanging fruit in the month of November to show the league and the fanbase the seriousness of his intent. As another poster just said, this club needs both quantity and quality. A couple of legit, albeit lower-impact major leaguers should already be on the 2013 roster via trade or FA.[/QUOTE]
That Baker signed elsewhere implies either of the following to me: a) Ryan has seriously underestimated the price of starting pitching or B) every pitcher that receives "a final offer from the Twins "will immediately shop it" and sign elsewhere for slightly more, thus forcing the Twins to make "a blow-away" offer in order to sign a pitcher.[/QUOTE]

Good points. I'd amend "a" by stating this club has had a serious dis-ability in OVER-estimating the value of their existing starting pitching (Pavano, Blackburn, Marquis, et al)

In regard to Baker, I'd add: c) The club burned any lingering goodwill bridges with how they handled Big Spot Scott and his injury.

Edited by jokin, 27 November 2012 - 07:18 PM.


#79 Brock Beauchamp

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 07:29 PM

I thought we fixed the "compete with the big dogs" problem with TF? Your comment sounds like we've time-traveled back to the thrilling days of the Plasti-dome Era.


You're totally right. The Twins are now on par with the Yankees, Phillies, Dodgers, and Cubs.

I don't know what I was thinking, pointing out that some teams have more money to spend on risky free agent-types.

#80 Mike Sixel

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 07:41 PM

1 year deal for $6MM is risky? What would not be risky?

And, they have $25MM more in income coming next year, cost free. And Morneau's deal ends after this year. They have plenty of money if only they want to spend it. We'll see over the next few weeks....

I don't know, it is a site to discuss sports, not airline safety.....maybe we should take it less seriously?