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Scott Feldman, the Cubs, and how Theo Epstien is making Terry Ryan's life miserable

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#21 nicksaviking

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 01:11 PM

[quote name='ThePuck'][quote name='nicksaviking'][quote name='mike wants wins']Fangraphs believes he will be league average and is a great value. I do not think he is the pitcher you all think he is. He us making Ryan's job hard because he is taking all the bargains off the table, reducing the supply of pitchers....[/QUOTE]

I would have been happy with Feldmen as a sleeper pick up, but when you pay a guy $6 million it kind of erases the UNDERRATED/SLEEPER label from your title. If the Twins pay a starter $6 million, he's probably going to be expected to 2-3 starter.[/QUOTE]

6 million isn't gonna get you a #2 or even a top notch #3.[/QUOTE]

Have you not been following this team? The Twins annually wedge a $6 million pitcher into the 2 spot regardless of his actual talents. This team hasn't overpayed for pitching unless they wore a Twins uniform the previous year.

#22 jharaldson

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 01:28 PM

I agree with minn55441. Time will tell. I personally am optimistic, and think the critics are premature in judging things, especially ahead of the winter meetings next week.


When would critics not be premature? I agree that Terry Ryan deserves more time but I would put out there that if he has not signed a starting pitcher to a guaranteed Major League contract by December 31 I would start thinking this offseason feels like a failure.

#23 AllhopeisgoneMNTWINS

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 01:35 PM

Okay guys...the ONLY reason the Cubs signed Baker and Feldman is to hope they show they are healthy and can be somewhat good in a possible attempt to then dump them midseason in hopes to get a decent prospect. The only way people want to go to the crappy Cubs is if they overpaid and that they did for Feldman and Baker.

#24 ThePuck

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 01:52 PM

[quote name='nicksaviking'][quote name='ThePuck'][quote name='nicksaviking'][quote name='mike wants wins']Fangraphs believes he will be league average and is a great value. I do not think he is the pitcher you all think he is. He us making Ryan's job hard because he is taking all the bargains off the table, reducing the supply of pitchers....[/QUOTE]

I would have been happy with Feldmen as a sleeper pick up, but when you pay a guy $6 million it kind of erases the UNDERRATED/SLEEPER label from your title. If the Twins pay a starter $6 million, he's probably going to be expected to 2-3 starter.[/QUOTE]

6 million isn't gonna get you a #2 or even a top notch #3.[/QUOTE]

Have you not been following this team? The Twins annually wedge a $6 million pitcher into the 2 spot regardless of his actual talents. This team hasn't overpayed for pitching unless they wore a Twins uniform the previous year.[/QUOTE]

Yes, I've been following this team...doesn't mean I'm gonna stop pointing out the idiocy of their actions

#25 ThePuck

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 01:53 PM

I agree with minn55441. Time will tell. I personally am optimistic, and think the critics are premature in judging things, especially ahead of the winter meetings next week.


When would critics not be premature? I agree that Terry Ryan deserves more time but I would put out there that if he has not signed a starting pitcher to a guaranteed Major League contract by December 31 I would start thinking this offseason feels like a failure.


It's not like Terry Ryan was away from the team when Smith was the GM...

#26 Brock Beauchamp

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 01:58 PM

It's not like Terry Ryan was away from the team when Smith was the GM...


While you're not necessarily doing this, Puck, this kind of thinking is one of my biggest pet peeves of late.

We just don't know what kind of influence Ryan had during Smith's term as general manager. He could have stamped approval on every deal the team made. He may have been ignored 90% of the time. Bringing up the fact that he was with the team and implying he held decision-making power during Smith's run is pure conjecture and it's really starting to grate on my nerves.

Ryan is the general manager. Judge him for his actions while he's in the big chair and let us refrain from speculating and gesticulating madly on what he was doing while somebody else was in it. Most of the time, it's nothing more than a platform to bitch about the front office with little or no substantiating evidence to support the claims.

#27 ThePuck

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 02:04 PM


It's not like Terry Ryan was away from the team when Smith was the GM...


While you're not necessarily doing this, Puck, this kind of thinking is one of my biggest pet peeves of late.

We just don't know what kind of influence Ryan had during Smith's term as general manager. He could have stamped approval on every deal the team made. He may have been ignored 90% of the time. Bringing up the fact that he was with the team and implying he held decision-making power during Smith's run is pure conjecture and it's really starting to grate on my nerves.

Ryan is the general manager. Judge him for his actions while in the bosses' chair and let's refrain from speculating on what he was doing while somebody else was in it. Most of the time, it's nothing more than a platform to bitch about the front office with little or no substantiating evidence to support the claims.


In this instance, my point is that he didn't just stumble into this situation...he wasn't completely removed...and the pitching situation has been how it's been for a couple years now (even with the fluke pitching we had in 2010). We've needed pitching for awhile now. We've known our system was weak in pitching, from top to bottom, for awhile now. It didn't JUST happen. So this whole, give him time stuff, just doesn't fly for me. Just my opinion. Our pitching is weak at the top (at MLB level and high levels) mostly cause of his poor drafting.

On top of that, when was the last time he ponied up and got us quality pitching from the FA market? We were close in 2006...needed some pitching to get us over the hump...what did he get us?

#28 birdwatcher

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 02:11 PM

When will it NOT be premature to judge Ryan's winter moves? Um, spring, after his winter moves have been made.

Tons of Feldman's and Baker's can be defined as a dozen or so free agent pitchers who are valued more highly by the pros, and another dozen or so similarly better pitchers who are available via trade. Is that good enough for you, mike?

#29 birdwatcher

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 02:18 PM

If the Twins had signed Baker and Feldman, the vast majority of the comments on here would negative. Ryan would be called names, and be derided as cheap and incompetent for signing two guys who are no better than #4-5-6 starters on a losing team, and risky ones at that.

But, because Ryan did not sign them, he's being called names, and is being derided as cheap and incompetent for not signing two guys who are low-risk solutions as #3-4 starters.

Shocking.

#30 mike wants wins

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 02:21 PM

That's a fine definition, not one I agree with, but fine. So pretty much 25 or so pitchers either a lot better, or about the same, if I read you correctly. Many of those will get more than 1 year, 6 million dollar deals. How many will get less, and be as effective?

#31 PseudoSABR

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 02:23 PM

I hope this undercuts the notion of bargain deals on pitching--that the Twins could obtain quality arms on the cheap. Considering we'll have to overpay* for pitching. We might as well go big, and overpay for top of the line pitching like Marcum, Haren or Grienke. Wishful thinking, but jesus I can hope.

Edited by PseudoSABR, 27 November 2012 - 03:03 PM.


#32 mike wants wins

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 02:24 PM

Are there many people calling him names, or even criticizing him here? I am not, I am saying that this is what guys cost and that at some point they will need to make deals like this or more. There is a lot of emotion and name calling about the salaries and abilities of the players, and most of it is in defense if Ryan.

#33 nicksaviking

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 02:31 PM

I'm not upset that Ryan didn't sign either pitcher, there are better arms out there and hopefully Ryan is saving his budget to pay an actual front of the rotation arm $12 million instead of two back end guys $6M each. However, because guys like Feldman are getting $6M, a guy like Shawn Marcum is now going to want to double that seeing as he is twice the pitcher Feldmen is. If this inflation holds true the problem will occur when Ryan gets gunshy at deal time and can't find the courage to pull the trigger on one of the bigger names because the money or years frighten him. He will then be left holding a bag full of money that can only be spent to overpay for the rest of the dredge that remains on the free agency floor.

#34 Boom Boom

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 02:32 PM

If the Twins had signed Baker and Feldman, the vast majority of the comments on here would negative. Ryan would be called names, and be derided as cheap and incompetent for signing two guys who are no better than #4-5-6 starters on a losing team, and risky ones at that.

But, because Ryan did not sign them, he's being called names, and is being derided as cheap and incompetent for not signing two guys who are low-risk solutions as #3-4 starters.

Shocking.


I didn't want Baker or Feldman, so I won't rip Ryan for not signing either of them.

However, I'd definitely be critical if TR went out and signed those two and another Jason Marquis while claiming that he's put together a rotation that can be competitive in 2013. What he needs to do is trade some veterans for young talent and accept the rebuilding process.

#35 Brock Beauchamp

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 02:34 PM

When will it NOT be premature to judge Ryan's winter moves? Um, spring, after his winter moves have been made.


January 1st is a good place to start. We haven't even made it through the Winter Meetings yet. No significant free agents have signed with clubs outside of the one they played with in 2012. If nothing happens at or in the immediate wake of the Winter Meetings, I will be seriously disappointed. If nothing has happened by the new year, it will be time to grab the pitchforks and torches.

#36 Twins Twerp

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 02:41 PM

I agree with minn55441. Time will tell. I personally am optimistic, and think the critics are premature in judging things, especially ahead of the winter meetings next week.


When would critics not be premature? I agree that Terry Ryan deserves more time but I would put out there that if he has not signed a starting pitcher to a guaranteed Major League contract by December 31 I would start thinking this offseason feels like a failure.


That is by far the dumbest thing I have ever heard. If a team starts out the season with a sub-500 record, and then wins the world series, is it a failure.

If we sign Greinke and Annibal on January 5th will you still have thought it was a failure. Prince Fielder was signed in the Spring last year.

You guys need to take a chill pill. You don't judge a book by the first chapter, read the whole thing, then start the bitchin'. To get mad that we haven't signed a star yet, when no one else has done it, is ass9. These are the people that give bad grades for the MLB draft the next day. Patience is a virtue, assuming makes an ass out of me and you...meandusuming.

#37 SpiritofVodkaDave

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 02:42 PM

Feldman+Figgins= Championship

Again, Feldman is garbage, anything more then 2.5 million was a gross overpay. The guy has a career 4.81 ERA and 4.78 in his last 4 seasons. He has also pitched over 151 IP one time in his career. I would have brought him in on a 1-2 mil deal tops, anyone who thinks the Twins missed the boat on him needs to have their head examined.

#38 Brock Beauchamp

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 02:43 PM

In this instance, my point is that he didn't just stumble into this situation...he wasn't completely removed...and the pitching situation has been how it's been for a couple years now (even with the fluke pitching we had in 2010). We've needed pitching for awhile now. We've known our system was weak in pitching, from top to bottom, for awhile now. It didn't JUST happen. So this whole, give him time stuff, just doesn't fly for me. Just my opinion. Our pitching is weak at the top (at MLB level and high levels) mostly cause of his poor drafting.

On top of that, when was the last time he ponied up and got us quality pitching from the FA market? We were close in 2006...needed some pitching to get us over the hump...what did he get us?


He didn't have much money to play with last offseason and he had a lot of holes to fill. Outside of the Marquis disaster, he did a good job of putting together a solid offense with not a lot of money. He then drafted a bunch of pitchers this past June with the hopes of flipping a few of them into starters on the big league club within 2-3 years.

He's not going to fix this thing overnight. Baseball teams change direction slowly and the guy needs more than 12 months and one draft to get the franchise back on track. I'm not even arguing that he's doing a good job of it, I'm only saying that fans need to have reasonable expectations.

#39 Brock Beauchamp

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 02:46 PM

If we sign Greinke and Annibal on January 5th will you still have thought it was a failure. Prince Fielder was signed in the Spring last year.

You guys need to take a chill pill. You don't judge a book by the first chapter, read the whole thing, then start the bitchin'. To get mad that we haven't signed a star yet, when no one else has done it, is ass9. These are the people that give bad grades for the MLB draft the next day. Patience is a virtue, assuming makes an ass out of me and you...meandusuming.


I'm a big proponent of the "give 'em time" argument but the Twins can't afford to wait out this market. They need too many arms to sit back and wait for the market to "mature". If they do that, they'll be left with a half dozen Jason Marquis to choose between. The team needs to strike quickly and pick up at least one arm. If they want to wait out the market for a second, I can understand... but that first arm needs to be acquired before the pool thins.

#40 nicksaviking

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 03:00 PM

Outside of the Marquis disaster, he did a good job of putting together a solid offense with not a lot of money.


Which does beg the question, why does Ryan have so much more difficulty evaluating pitchers than hitters? In my opinion, no more soft tossers. If you can't reasonably predict a 7.0 K/9 for a guy, stop looking at him. Most of the perenial winners tolerate one, maybe two such arms in the rotation, and the Twins are already going to fill one spot with Diamond. It's not reasonable to expect the rotation to achieve this in one season, but they need to start the process now.